Derek Posted October 25, 2019 Report Posted October 25, 2019 In mid September we (wife and I) closed on a 1995 M20J MSE. Since then, it has been in annual and we just came out the other side of that experience only moderately lighter in the wallet. We got the pre-buy and subsequent annual done by Sean at C & W Aero at KCDW. It was a good learning experience but I'm glad it's over. I did the flight from KCDW to KPOU with my CFI yesterday and it was both fun and challenging. On the flight we went through airwork maneuvers: steeps, stalls, slows, constant airspeed descents, AP familiarization, manual gear extension, speedbrake use, and managing energy approaching the destination. As a low timer with DA20 and C172 experience I was amazed how different certain maneuvers felt. For example, steep turns go nose low much more in the Mooney than I am used to. Also, the general cruise attitude of the plane looks different. My CFI was pointing out a tendency to fly more nose-high than I should. I was absolutely amazed at how docile the J felt in stalls (power on and off). There wasn't any strong wing dropping tendency or even much buffeting. I thought about asking to go through accelerated stalls, but maybe another time. I was feeling a little saturated. I thought I had hit the approach numbers pretty good and was 75 knots over the threshold with nearly full nose up trim yet still bounced once and then settled nicely for a smooth but slightly yawing landing. CFI reminded me to avoid the temptation to nose down after bounce and just wait for it to settle as you continue to hold it off the runway. It'll be better next time! It is a joy to fly. I'm excited about getting through the insurance probation period and being free to continue to practice on my own. Thank you MSers for all your words and experience. We definitely made the right choice of aircraft. Photo is me, my father-in-law (retired A&P), and my wife after I returned with my CFI. 10 Quote
Ricky_231 Posted October 25, 2019 Report Posted October 25, 2019 Looking good! I'm going through the same experience right this moment - closed in late september, went through an annual, and now waiting for a new transponder and a few other items to be installed/fixed before bringing her home. The wait is the worst - it's like getting a new toy without batteries for Christmas. 1 Quote
KB4 Posted October 25, 2019 Report Posted October 25, 2019 Excellent choice in the J. During my transition training I was told "if you ever bounce a Mooney add full power-go around." I strictly adhere to that advice. To each his own, but I would think after a bounce your first instinct should be Cram Climb Clean and go around, if it's I am going to wait for her to settle, you may run out of Rnwy or be unable to clear an obstacle cause of the delay in initiating the go around. In 2016 at Sky Manor A J pilot bounced his J 2 or 3 times before he initiated his go around, it ended tragically he was unable to clear the trees at the DER. If just a baby bump and easily corrected then that's different. 1 Quote
Hank Posted October 25, 2019 Report Posted October 25, 2019 Congratulations! I'm not sure I've ever done a constant speed descent, other than whatever speed she settles at with 500fpm . . . I generally cruise my C indicating around 145 mph at altitude and descend power in around 165-170 mph. Quote
larrynimmo Posted October 25, 2019 Report Posted October 25, 2019 I think while you are in the "learning stages" the go around is a great way to go....but as you become proficient with the M20J, with a light bounce ...if you keep the nose up and its not stalling and you have runway, you once again have the opportunity to land the plane, you can even add a little power for stability....since you are already at or above rotation speed, you need very little runway left to take back off again. If you are rattled at any point, then you should just go full power and go around anyway. The Mooney is the most difficult plane to land that I have flown...it takes speed control, good height judgement (fat runway view), and most of all finesse. Plus if you don't fly regularly the lack of practice may add to the challenge. You still have to have good judgement and experience in re-landing the plane. Quote
Derek Posted October 25, 2019 Author Report Posted October 25, 2019 On 10/25/2019 at 7:00 PM, Hank said: I'm not sure I've ever done a constant speed descent, other than whatever speed she settles at with 500fpm Expand My CFI is Mooney-experienced. He's not the "Mooney type" however. He is of the persuasion that letting the MAP stay high and just nosing over for a descent is hard on the plane in the long term. I don't know enough to make my own opinion yet. However, I did see some value in the constant speed descent practice as being a good way to learn energy management, and working on periodic downward adjustment of the MAP throughout the descent as pressure increases. But, I don't know anything yet. I'm used to chop-and-drop flying a C172 or DA20 when I wanna come down. That and pretty much staying at my selected cruise settings until I hit the downwind leg and quickly slow down with big throttle and pitch changes. You know, the typical flying of a renter. Got some habits to change. Quote
gsxrpilot Posted October 25, 2019 Report Posted October 25, 2019 One bounce followed by a good recovery is just fine. Going around has it's own complexities and while you should be comfortable with it, it's generally no problem to salvage the landing after a bounce. On the other hand, someone who bounces a second time, or third time, probably isn't salvaging anything and would be best to take it around and try again. But I think the Mooneys are easy to land. Finish up the hours for insurance and then get out there and work it out. You'll figure it out quickly and get really good at landing. 3 1 Quote
jaylw314 Posted October 25, 2019 Report Posted October 25, 2019 On 10/25/2019 at 6:13 PM, Derek said: As a low timer with DA20 and C172 experience I was amazed how different certain maneuvers felt. For example, steep turns go nose low much more in the Mooney than I am used to. Also, the general cruise attitude of the plane looks different. My CFI was pointing out a tendency to fly more nose-high than I should. ... I thought I had hit the approach numbers pretty good and was 75 knots over the threshold with nearly full nose up trim yet still bounced once and then settled nicely for a smooth but slightly yawing landing. CFI reminded me to avoid the temptation to nose down after bounce and just wait for it to settle as you continue to hold it off the runway. It'll be better next time! Expand Nice! Seems like it's been a while since we've seen a new M20J owner on MS! M20J's have a very different sight picture from C172's in level flight (I don't know how they compare to DA20's). I think the over-the-nose visibility is much better, even though that makes no sense when you look at the cabin profile. That probably accounts for your tendency to keep the nose up, and makes the nose look lower than expected in steep turns. I think of a "bounce" as hitting the ground hard enough to change your pitch attitude. If it doesn't change your pitch attitude, you're basically still in the flare and can keep going. If it changes your pitch attitude, though, that's almost an automatic go-around. Unless you're at gross weight, 75 KIAS will still float at least 800 feet past your aim point, but that's fine while you're getting used to it and have enough runway. Quote
Bob - S50 Posted October 25, 2019 Report Posted October 25, 2019 Congratulations. You'll love the airplane. My only 'learning' comment would be that 75 KIAS over the threshold is a bit fast. I would only be at 72 KIAS at max gross weight. Assuming the two of you were average weight, and you didn't have a lot of gas left on board, I'd guess more like 65 - 67 KIAS would be better. It might take you awhile to feel comfortable at that speed though. Enjoy getting to know your new plane. 1 Quote
Derek Posted October 25, 2019 Author Report Posted October 25, 2019 On 10/25/2019 at 7:59 PM, jaylw314 said: I think of a "bounce" as hitting the ground hard enough to change your pitch attitude Expand I've seen a few bounces from the ground as an observer. This didn't fee like that. It was more like a stone skipping across a pond. No pitching or rolling around. I was rounding out and felt the wheels gently touch the runway and then I was climbing for a moment. I was about to push in the throttle, but my CFI said "just hold it". It was a 5,000 ft runway and the first contact was at the 1,000 ft marker. Turned off with about 2,000 ft to spare and light braking. 3 Quote
HIghpockets Posted October 25, 2019 Report Posted October 25, 2019 I fly a J and I have found 70kts is the airspeed over the numbers for a no float landing. Short field landings are done at 65kts. This is ignoring those gusty days when you have to factor in a few extra knots. I encourage you to enroll in a MAPA Proficiency Program. Great way to really get familiar with your airplane. 2 1 Quote
RLCarter Posted October 25, 2019 Report Posted October 25, 2019 Congrats on your new bird, I’ve as you say “stone skipped” mine a few times and I’m sure there will be more to come, Mooney’s like numbers and like to fly. I fly both a Mooney and 172 and sight picture will get ya 2 Quote
WaynePierce Posted October 25, 2019 Report Posted October 25, 2019 Seems like mid September is a popular time to pick up you first Mooney. I got my 85J last mid September. I've just finished up my first annual and it was relatively painless. Still waiting on ADS-B buy my avionics guy says no problem getting it done in time. Updating my panel as well with an Avidyne 550 and an L3 transponder and an Avidyne audio panel. Keeping a 430w in the panel as com/nav 2. Quote
Ricky_231 Posted October 25, 2019 Report Posted October 25, 2019 On 10/25/2019 at 9:51 PM, WaynePierce said: Seems like mid September is a popular time to pick up you first Mooney. I got my 85J last mid September. I've just finished up my first annual and it was relatively painless. Still waiting on ADS-B buy my avionics guy says no problem getting it done in time. Updating my panel as well with an Avidyne 550 and an L3 transponder and an Avidyne audio panel. Keeping a 430w in the panel as com/nav 2. Expand Try getting ADS-B done here on the East Coast though... called 3 shops in the VA/MD/NJ area and they all said they could "fit me in" in february or march 2020! So I left it in Texas where it's taking longer than expected but will get done by november. 1 Quote
jaylw314 Posted October 25, 2019 Report Posted October 25, 2019 On 10/25/2019 at 8:31 PM, Derek said: I've seen a few bounces from the ground as an observer. This didn't fee like that. It was more like a stone skipping across a pond. No pitching or rolling around. I was rounding out and felt the wheels gently touch the runway and then I was climbing for a moment. I was about to push in the throttle, but my CFI said "just hold it". It was a 5,000 ft runway and the first contact was at the 1,000 ft marker. Turned off with about 2,000 ft to spare and light braking. Expand That sounds about right. For now, 75 KIAS is fine, and you'll get a lot of practice time in the flare, but eventually you'll want to dial it back a few knots like everyone else suggests. My CFI describes the flare as a maneuver where you're trying to not let the plane land. I think he would describe what happened to you as accidentally letting the wheels touch during the middle of the flare... 1 Quote
Flash Posted October 26, 2019 Report Posted October 26, 2019 On 10/25/2019 at 11:30 PM, jaylw314 said: My CFI describes the flare as a maneuver where you're trying to not let the plane land. I think he would describe what happened to you as accidentally letting the wheels touch during the middle of the flare... Expand Great description. Landing a Mooney is about flying the right speed and then having the patience to let the plane land when it wants to land rather than trying to force it to land when it's not ready. Trying to force it to land is a great way to experience pilot-induced oscillation, otherwise known as porpoising, which is not fun and is hazardous to your prop. Quote
carusoam Posted October 26, 2019 Report Posted October 26, 2019 Great details, Derek! When you fly often enough... the landings are done based on experience... you will know the speeds, and how to control it .... Around here people like to show their videos, with the nose wheel touching down gently right on the paint stripe... Sunday landings are always better than Saturdays... Saturation training is great... come back the next day after a good rest to see how good you really are. You can really learn about how your brain works... What does your father in law think of your M20J? Best regards, -a- Quote
Derek Posted October 26, 2019 Author Report Posted October 26, 2019 On 10/26/2019 at 3:17 AM, carusoam said: What does your father in law think of your M20J? Expand He was pretty excited. He recounted some stories of working on them in the 80s at a shop in Florida where he worked at the time. On 10/26/2019 at 3:17 AM, carusoam said: people like to show their videos, with the nose wheel touching down gently right on the paint stripe... Expand Hopefully I can post something similar in due time. On 10/26/2019 at 3:17 AM, carusoam said: When you fly often enough... the landings are done based on experience... Expand I'm looking forward to ownership for that reason. Now, if I can just get my CFI more frequently to get through the probation period! 1 Quote
carusoam Posted October 27, 2019 Report Posted October 27, 2019 How many hours did your insurance prescribe? My first Mooney I got 10&10... 10 with CFI, 10 solo... Second Mooney was less memorable... Transition Training adsorbed the requirement before the plane got home... Best regards, -a- Quote
Derek Posted October 27, 2019 Author Report Posted October 27, 2019 On 10/27/2019 at 4:22 AM, carusoam said: How many hours did your insurance prescribe? Expand 10 hours with a CFI. Quote
Ricky_231 Posted October 27, 2019 Report Posted October 27, 2019 On 10/27/2019 at 4:22 AM, carusoam said: How many hours did your insurance prescribe? My first Mooney I got 10&10... 10 with CFI, 10 solo... Second Mooney was less memorable... Transition Training adsorbed the requirement before the plane got home... Best regards, -a- Expand Transition training will take care of mine as well (10 hours with CFI that matches same qualifications as open pilot requirements) but I had quotes that were as low as 3 hours with CFI + 5 hours solo. Since I wasn't going to take off and fly away with only 3 hours of training anyway (seems reckless), I didn't factor that into my choosing criteria 1 Quote
Mooney in Oz Posted October 28, 2019 Report Posted October 28, 2019 On 10/25/2019 at 6:13 PM, Derek said: On the flight we went through ......, manual gear extension Expand Congratulations on your new acquisition, Derek. Please remember never to practice in air manual gear extension due to unforeseen repercussions. You can safely do this each annual whilst your Mooney is on jacks. Show us some more pics when able. Quote
mike_elliott Posted October 28, 2019 Report Posted October 28, 2019 On 10/27/2019 at 2:01 PM, Ricky_231 said: Transition training will take care of mine as well (10 hours with CFI that matches same qualifications as open pilot requirements) but I had quotes that were as low as 3 hours with CFI + 5 hours solo. Since I wasn't going to take off and fly away with only 3 hours of training anyway (seems reckless), I didn't factor that into my choosing criteria Expand Transition training time prescribed by an insurance carrier is actuarial based along with a bit of astrology influence and weighted with your current reported times. The rubber meets the road with your absorption of new systems and procedures, stick and rudder adeptness, and competency in all phases of flight you are certificated to make in the new to you plane. Personally, I will sign a person off once I see they have a mastery of the plane and transition syllabus to the point I would let my most prized treasure, my wife, fly with them. Most of the time this occurs well within the insurance stipulated times and we spend the balance of the time required honing new skills. New Factory Ultra transition training encompasses 3 to 4 days with a FITS training program and heavy ground instruction. 2 Quote
Fry Posted October 28, 2019 Report Posted October 28, 2019 (edited) Congrats to all fellow new Mooney owners. I want to chime in since I can relate to their stories. I closed on a 1995 Mooney M20J MSE by mid August. Took the airplane (then based at a grass strip in Northern Germany) and did two cycles in the pattern with the (now former) owner. Landings seemed surprisingly easy to me, so I simply flew her to my home base, a 600m asphalt strip in central Germany. No insurance requirement of transition training, and after 23 hours I have to say, while a little training would certainly not have hurt, I am not missing anything. (I had about 750 hours in Cessnas and Pipers before, not a lot, but something to build on). The 23 hours in the Mooney were spent in several day trips and a brief vacation to Croatia. Before, I had a GREAT respect landing the airplane - and it was all unjustified. The M20J is easy to land, in fact, never before have I made made smoother landings with such regularity. The secret is in having a graphics with typical W&B scenarios and fuel states, and on the side of that (along the weight axis) the appropriate Vrefs. I am attaching that graphics here from the back of my checklist. Also, I am tending towards the 1,2 Vso "short field Vref" instead of the more common 1,3 Vso because most strips I am using are indeed short. My results have been consistent smooth landings with the stall horn audible just before touchdown and right on the aiming point. And generally speaking: the M20J is a joy to fly VFR and IFR. A stable and fast travelling machine. The airframe has about 6000 hours, and the engine 8000 (1600 since overhaul). But it is a beauty, interior was done 15 years ago (and well), and paintjob is 10 years old (and beautiful). I have finewire spark plugs, and the engine is running LOP just fine, to my knowledge without any adjustments in the injection system. In cruise at 8000 or so, I leave the throttle fully open and tune the mixture to the maximum power availble up to 75% (another table helps here, I am attaching that too). Cool CHTs, little oil usage, what else could I dream of? One extremely small fuel leak stains the paint and needs fixing but not in a hurry. Next week I am going to deliver the airplane to an avionics shop, replacing the GNS430W with an IFD540 and a couple other (minor) changes in the panel. So, another happy camper here. Edited October 28, 2019 by Fry 5 Quote
jaylw314 Posted October 28, 2019 Report Posted October 28, 2019 On 10/28/2019 at 1:37 PM, Fry said: Congrats to all fellow new Mooney owners. I want to chime in since I can relate to their stories. I closed on a 1995 Mooney M20J MSE by mid August. Took the airplane (then based at a grass strip in Northern Germany) and did two cycles in the pattern with the (now former) owner. Landings seemed surprisingly easy to me, so I simply flew her to my home base, a 600m asphalt strip in central Germany. No insurance requirement of transition training, and after 23 hours I have to say, while a little training would certainly not have hurt, I am not missing anything. (I had about 750 hours in Cessnas and Pipers before, not a lot, but something to build on). The 23 hours in the Mooney were spent in several day trips and a brief vacation to Croatia. Before, I had a GREAT respect landing the airplane - and it was all unjustified. The M20J is easy to land, in fact, never before have I made made smoother landings with such regularity. The secret is in having a graphics with typical W&B scenarios and fuel states, and on the side of that (along the weight axis) the appropriate Vrefs. I am attaching that graphics here from the back of my checklist. Also, I am tending towards the 1,2 Vso "short field Vref" instead of the more common 1,3 Vso because most strips I am using are indeed short. My results have been consistent smooth landings with the stall horn audible just before touchdown and right on the aiming point. And generally speaking: the M20J is a joy to fly VFR and IFR. A stable and fast travelling machine. The airframe has about 6000 hours, and the engine 8000 (1600 since overhaul). But it is a beauty, interior was done 15 years ago (and well), and paintjob is 10 years old (and beautiful). I have finewire spark plugs, and the engine is running LOP just fine, to my knowledge without any adjustments in the injection system. In cruise at 8000 or so, I leave the throttle fully open and tune the mixture to the maximum power availble up to 75% (another table helps here, I am attaching that too). Cool CHTs, little oil usage, what else could I dream of? One extremely small fuel leak stains the paint and needs fixing but not in a hurry. Next week I am going to deliver the airplane to an avionics shop, replacing the GNS430W with an IFD540 and a couple other (minor) changes in the panel. So, another happy camper here. Expand I bow down to your obsessive level of detail Congratulations on the new bird! Nice to see a couple new 201 owners here! That's a pretty fast bird, I usually only get around 146 KTAS with 9.0 gph LOP Quote
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