Hold as Published

[donkaye]

Was arriving at KRAP a few days ago on a direct flight from Sioux Falls to Rapid City.  Radar was out.  Another aircraft was on an instrument approach.  I was told to hold as published Southeast of the Rapid City VOR.  Looked at the Charts and there were no holds on any airways.  What would you have done?  Remember I was going Direct and was not on any airway.

[amillet]

Ask controller for clarification?

[mike_elliott]

One shown here Don. I trust the other aircraft was on an approach for  32 and you would have been also. Agreed, ask for clarification

[Bob - S50]

There is a hold in lieu published for both the ILS and RNAV to 32 at HELTA.  I would ask if that is what he wanted.  If not, I'd tell him there was no published holding on the low chart and ask him if he wanted me to hold on my inbound course to RAP.

[Danb]

Querie control if they wanted me to hold at RAP Vor as depicted for the miss. High hills there I'd make sure for clarification.

[Vance Harral]

I'm guessing the hold they wanted you on was the one published on the approach charts, as Mike referenced.  Requesting clarification is an obvious choice, and I'm sure you did.

So the question this raises is, how do controllers know about "published" holds?  I'm assuming ATC rarely/never looks at the approach plates and enroute charts pilots do.  My guess is that "published" holds are somehow depicted on their radar screens, but I don't know how it works in practice.

[kortopates]

5 hours ago, donkaye said:

I was told to hold as published Southeast of the Rapid City VOR.

If I was expecting, or they were using KRAP to the VOR 32, I would assume they were referring to the depicted hold on the 142 radial of RAP VOR as @mike_elliott suggested; yet ask for confirmation. But if I was looking at the more likely RNAV or ILS 32 approach, which does not have a hold at RAP, I would be very confused and ask for specific holding instructions, since neither of those have hold at RAP,  just HELTA.  HELTA can not be correct, despite that HELTA is SE of RAP,  since he said SE of RAP, not SE of HELTA; unless he bungled the holding phraseology as well which is doubtful. 

[Mark89114]

A HOLD????? I would declare an emergency and ask for penalty vectors...…..

 

[StevenL757]

Ask for clarification...agree.

[midlifeflyer]

ATC has been known  to give holds which appear on approach charts, SISs and STARs. If you are looking at an enroute chart, best tell them you don't see it and have them clarify.

[DXB]

You can't expect intelligible controller instructions at a KRAP airport...sorry couldn't resist.

I guess if I were already direct RAP and told to expect an approach that has a published hold at RAP that is southeast of the fix, then I'd do that hold. 

Otherwise I'd get flustered and insecure, maybe eventually get over it, and then ask for clarification.

 

[kortopates]

18 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

ATC has been known  to give holds which appear on approach charts, SISs and STARs. If you are looking at an enroute chart, best tell them you don't see it and have them clarify.

We actually get that all the time in my area. There is only 1 published hold on the low enroute airspace in the San Diego area, so controllers will regularly give a published hold over Oceanside VOR, which is unique to the OCN VOR-A approach, even for aircraft destined for other nearby airports. I was thinking the same thing but don't know how commonly that is done.

A bit of a tangent, but despite how some insist holds never happen, so they don't need to practice, it doesn't take a loss of radar to require a hold. Although more common for weather, my best example of holding in clear VFR weather was when KLAS had departure with a bird strike request an immediate return back to the airport for landing. While they worked him and cleared him to land any runway, on another frequency a controller issued no less than 15 holding instructions to aircraft inbound for landing. The controller rattled off holding instruction non-stop for several minutes; pausing only for a pilot readback. Many where different altitudes at the same fix, but with so many planes he was soon making up lots of unpublished holds. He managed to bungle 2 or 3 where the stated direction (e.g. SE) off a fix didn't match radial or bearing he gave (e.g. Hold North on the 180 radial), so he had a couple pilots asking for clarification (sorry,make that hold north on the 180 bearing). Wished I had gotten a recording. 

[DXB]

Love these confusing ATC instruction discussions! Keep 'em comin'.....

[DonMuncy]

When returning from CA many years ago, on December 31, nearing midnight, ATC informed me (and many others) that due to a computer glitch, DFW Class B was not allowing any entries. "Hold over Glenrose VOR at x altitude". He had us stacked up as high as I could see. Thankfully, after only a couple of laps, they straightened it up and unstacked us into class B. My first and only real life hold.

[mike_elliott]

Once when Midwest Mooney M20 had a "hog" roast in Flora IL, ATC was stacking up Mooneys anywhere they could because of IMC and we were all IFR. They had me hold over the NDB at Flora, which was very unusual I thought as it was NOTAM'd OTS... Oh well, it all worked with my GPS. I think this was pre NASA form days or one would have been filled out

 

 

[kmyfm20s]

The only holds I see are published on the VOR missed approaches. I would assume that is what the controller would be referring to but would ask for clarification. 

[skydvrboy]

As someone who is just starting my instrument training, it's good to see that even seasoned veterans get confusing ATC instructions and need to ask for clarification.

[jaylw314]

Not that this clears up anything, but the section on the AIM is below.  The key phrase is that ATC must issue complete holding instructions when requested

Holding Instructions.

Whenever an aircraft has been cleared to a fix other than the destination airport and delay is expected, it is the responsibility of the ATC controller to issue complete holding instructions (unless the pattern is charted), an EFC time, and a best estimate of any additional en route/terminal delay.

If the holding pattern is charted and the controller doesn't issue complete holding instructions, the pilot is expected to hold as depicted on the appropriate chart. When the pattern is charted, the controller may omit all holding instructions except the charted holding direction and the statement AS PUBLISHED, e.g., “HOLD EAST AS PUBLISHED.” Controllers must always issue complete holding instructions when pilots request them.

NOTE-

Only those holding patterns depicted on U.S. government or commercially produced charts which meet FAA requirements should be used.

 

If no holding pattern is charted and holding instructions have not been issued, the pilot should ask ATC for holding instructions prior to reaching the fix. This procedure will eliminate the possibility of an aircraft entering a holding pattern other than that desired by ATC. If unable to obtain holding instructions prior to reaching the fix (due to frequency congestion, stuck microphone, etc.), hold in a standard pattern on the course on which you approached the fix and request further clearance as soon as possible. In this event, the altitude/flight level of the aircraft at the clearance limit will be protected so that separation will be provided as required.

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, DonMuncy said:

When returning from CA many years ago, on December 31, nearing midnight, ATC informed me (and many others) that due to a computer glitch, DFW Class B was not allowing any entries. "Hold over Glenrose VOR at x altitude". He had us stacked up as high as I could see. Thankfully, after only a couple of laps, they straightened it up and unstacked us into class B. My first and only real life hold.

I don't understand how holds can be so rare?  I've flown to the Oregon coast on weekends, and if there's IMC, there's often 2-3 aircraft waiting to get cleared for the approach?  Aren't there destinations like that everywhere?

[DonMuncy]

I almost never fly hard IFR, and perhaps my home drome is not as busy as some you are familiar with.

[kmyfm20s]

2 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

I don't understand how holds can be so rare?  I've flown to the Oregon coast on weekends, and if there's IMC, there's often 2-3 aircraft waiting to get cleared for the approach?  Aren't there destinations like that everywhere?

My experience is at non towered airports at busy arrival times when it’s actual IFR and the aircraft have to cancel on the ground.

[81X]

14 hours ago, donkaye said:

Was arriving at KRAP a few days ago on a direct flight from Sioux Falls to Rapid City.  Radar was out.  Another aircraft was on an instrument approach.  I was told to hold as published Southeast of the Rapid City VOR.  Looked at the Charts and there were no holds on any airways.  What would you have done?  Remember I was going Direct and was not on any airway.

I would have first said, "Oh, KRAP, a hold" and then asked what kind of KRAPpy instructions those were when all one wanted to do was make a not so KRAPpy landing at KRAP.  

In all seriousness, I'm assuming you were still enroute and not cleared for or told to expect a given approach.  If that's the case, it's one of the most important things I learned in instrument training- controllers make mistakes; some soft (forgetting to issue a descent until super late) or hard (issuing a hold that doesn't exist for the phase of flight).  Consistent communication and querying is critical.  

 

 

[donkaye]

 I finally have time to get back to this posting.  Flew KRAP to KOGD today.  Home tomorrow.  There is no doubt the Controller failed to give a proper holding clearance and I volunteered to hold on the inbound radial to the VOR I was on, which he said was unsatisfactory.  When he said "Hold as Published"  I quickly pulled up the enroute chart on Jepp FD and found no holds on any airway.  I did find holds on some approach charts, but didn't query the Controller, since no approach was given or stated to expect in the ASOS.  However, there was a good reason for the lack of query.  I didn't want to embarrass either the Controller or myself.  I took the prudent way out for the weather this day and said, "Since there are no holds on any of the airways, I cancel IFR". He didn't comment on that "subtle" remark.   Had it been IMC, he and I would have gone around, and I would have pinned him down to what he specifically wanted.  That would have been the prudent (actually the only) thing to do in IMC conditions.  Certainly I took the "easy" way out.  It didn't really address the issue for the future, but it was the best decision given the circumstance, in my opinion.

[carusoam]

Great follow-up, Don. Thanks for coming back with that.

Best regards,

-a-

[mike_elliott]

8 hours ago, 81X said:

 

 

8 hours ago, donkaye said:

 I finally have time to get back to this posting.  Flew KRAP to KOGD today.  Home tomorrow.  There is no doubt the Controller failed to give a proper holding clearance and I volunteered to hold on the inbound radial to the VOR I was on, which he said was unsatisfactory.  When he said "Hold as Published"  I quickly pulled up the enroute chart on Jepp FD and found no holds on any airway.  I did find holds on some approach charts, but didn't query the Controller, since no approach was given or stated to expect in the ASOS.  However, there was a good reason for the lack of query.  I didn't want to embarrass either the Controller or myself.  I took the prudent way out for the weather this day and said, "Since there are no holds on any of the airways, I cancel IFR". He didn't comment on that "subtle" remark.   Had it been IMC, he and I would have gone around, and I would have pinned him down to what he specifically wanted.  That would have been the prudent (actually the only) thing to do in IMC conditions.  Certainly I took the "easy" way out.  It didn't really address the issue for the future, but it was the best decision given the circumstance, in my opinion.

You politely and for the record did call him out on it with "Since there are no holds on any of the airways..." If his supervisor sees fit, he will get a proper beating