Oshkosh observation

[mike_elliott]

I just returned from a couple of days at Oshkosh and had the opportunity to speak to a lot of Mooney owners. One take away I came back with is that existing owners in large have an adversarial attitude towards new Mooney aircraft, which is sad. While quick to espouse the virtues of the legacy planes they own, as a group in large part were critical of the new planes with unfounded reasons. " My (insert model owned here) is so much better than a new Mooney. I can go (insert airspeed here) on (insert GPH here) and it doesnt cost me 800 AMU's. 

I guess I can say the same thing about my 2005 Odyssey with 240K miles vs my 2019 Tesla X (well, the Odyssey wont do 0-60 in 2.9 sec but can haul more, yada yada yada).

What was refreshing was that NON Mooney owners really found a LOT of value for the $ in the Mooney offerings compared to what else was out there, and 3 were/are being sold in the first couple of days that I know of. Are they smarter than we are or know something we dont?

It is a shame we are not evangelist for the new offerings as a group. This passion will help enable future generations  to have a 30 year old 2019 Ultra as we should be. We all love the plane and if you ever have the chance to fly in a new one, you will quickly realize just how special they really are. Supporting the factory will do nothing but help the value of the current fleet. While most proclaim the price is too high, the reality is the price is very competitive with competition while delivering more. The problem isnt the price, it is the ability of the existing Mooney owner to pay it. And that can be fixed by the individual if they elect to earn more. To 'dis the new ones because of one's inability to afford it only hurts the brand and our used fleet values, when the problem is really owned by the individual.

No, I dont own one personally, in fact, I dont own a Mooney right now. I cannot do justice to a fine plane by owning one as I wouldnt be able to put in the time required to fly it and be a good steward.  That, and that alone, was the reason I sold my pristine F. If this were not the case, i would have a new M20V in my hangar. They are THAT nice!!

We, as existing owners, are the GREATEST asset Mooney International has. Lets help them succeed. 

/SOAPBOX MODE=OFF

[MooneyMitch]

ABSOLUTELY!!! 

[AlexLev]

I agree with you, but I also think the Mooney brand needs to have a strategy to empower the Mooney community and work with us to foster that goodwill and brand evangelism.

We are their greatest asset, but their marketing strategy is probably outdated and not community-empowering focused. It's definitely a tough challenge for any Community Manager as Mooney-owners probably aren't the easiest group of people to engage in a way that is strategic and in service to their company goals.

If I was Mooney, I would consider these initiatives to build community:

1) have a social strategy that encourages legacy Mooney owners to show off their aircraft, awards free parts to best voted aircraft, with the message and branding being that "Mooney's last forever."

2) have a strategy to empower Mooney owners to host Mooney-specific fly-ins and fly in new aircraft for display for those flyins.

3) reassure Mooney owners that they love supporting the fleet with parts, etc.

4) listen and be transparent. we want to see the return of something like an M20J at a competitive price point, but there are probably real reasons why Mooney can't do that and remain profitable. it would be nice to have someone from Mooney address these concerns in a customer-facing way that protects their interest (obviously they can't be completely transparent and give us #'s and data), but at least be listening to the community and thinking about real ways to address the needs of them.

5) find a way to empower the Mooney community to grow the GA market as a whole. tell the stories of those Mooney owners whose lifestyle has been transformed thanks to their time machine. more time with family, friends, etc.

6) although the pilot population is mostly male and it makes sense that their marketing appeals mostly to men, I think rethinking that strategy and broadening the horizon as the industry is becoming more diverse and being a proponent for that diversity.

7) inviting some Mooney owners to give feedback, some form of beta-program to help develop better feedback loops and help people in the community feel included as a result.

8) put a program in place where MSCs can host Mooney-specific events/fly-ins/etc to increase education among Mooney maintenance among owners. they should have some leverage in order allow these repair stations to use the Mooney logo and be a "licensed repair station."

Just some ideas from someone whose job it is to build communities around brands (not aviation field).

[jaylw314]

5 minutes ago, AlexLev said:

Just some ideas from someone whose job it is to build communities around brands (not aviation field).

Hah!  I was just about to ask you what you do for a living!  

[MooneyMitch]

5 minutes ago, AlexLev said:

I agree with you, but I also think the Mooney brand needs to have a strategy to empower the Mooney community and work with us to foster that goodwill and brand evangelism.

We are their greatest asset, but their marketing strategy is probably outdated and not community-empowering focused. It's definitely a tough challenge for any Community Manager as Mooney-owners probably aren't the easiest group of people to engage in a way that is strategic and in service to their company goals.

If I was Mooney, I would consider these initiatives to build community:

1) have a social strategy that encourages legacy Mooney owners to show off their aircraft, awards free parts to best voted aircraft, with the message and branding being that "Mooney's last forever."

2) have a strategy to empower Mooney owners to host Mooney-specific fly-ins and fly in new aircraft for display for those flyins.

3) reassure Mooney owners that they love supporting the fleet with parts, etc.

4) listen and be transparent. we want to see the return of something like an M20J at a competitive price point, but there are probably real reasons why Mooney can't do that and remain profitable. it would be nice to have someone from Mooney address these concerns in a customer-facing way that protects their interest (obviously they can't be completely transparent and give us #'s and data), but at least be listening to the community and thinking about real ways to address the needs of them.

5) find a way to empower the Mooney community to grow the GA market as a whole. tell the stories of those Mooney owners whose lifestyle has been transformed thanks to their time machine. more time with family, friends, etc.

6) although the pilot population is mostly male and it makes sense that their marketing appeals mostly to men, I think rethinking that strategy and broadening the horizon as the industry is becoming more diverse and being a proponent for that diversity.

7) inviting some Mooney owners to give feedback, some form of beta-program to help develop better feedback loops and help people in the community feel included as a result.

8) put a program in place where MSCs can host Mooney-specific events/fly-ins/etc to increase education among Mooney maintenance among owners. they should have some leverage in order allow these repair stations to use the Mooney logo and be a "licensed repair station."

Just some ideas from someone whose job it is to build communities around brands (not aviation field).

Mostly ditto.... some of your positive suggestions exist.

Fully agree.....Mooney International marketing suffers, still!  

[mike_elliott]

Alex, you are spot on and what I have been promoting with them.  Item 2 is in place with the Mooney Summit and other groups. Unfortunately, the ship has sailed on Item #4. There will NOT be a 300K New J. Impossible to do as and was addressed at OSH last year, SNF the year before etc. Mooney recently hired a new marketing manager whom I hope will be reading all this. Regarding Item #7 At one time, I assembled a list of Mooney owners that would make up the Mooney owners advisory counsel at Lance Phillips (former Mooney Marketing manager) request, but that project died at his departure. Meanwhile, I have taken it on to relay what is said and felt to whomever will listen there. (Garrett, got your ears on?). Mooney's presence at the last 5 Mooney Summit's have given owners plenty of face time with management and will continue of course, as will trade shows and regional events. 

Thanks for your contribution to pull the rope forward, Alex!

 

[AlexLev]

3 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

Alex, you are spot on and what I have been promoting with them.  Item 2 is in place with the Mooney Summit and other groups. Unfortunately, the ship has sailed on Item #4. There will NOT be a 300K New J. Impossible to do as and was addressed at OSH last year, SNF the year before etc. Mooney recently hired a new marketing manager whom I hope will be reading all this. Regarding Item #7 At one time, I assembled a list of Mooney owners that would make up the Mooney owners advisory counsel at Lance Phillips (former Mooney Marketing manager) request, but that project died at his departure. Meanwhile, I have taken it on to relay what is said and felt to whomever will listen there. (Garrett, got your ears on?). Mooney's presence at the last 5 Mooney Summit's have given owners plenty of face time with management and will continue of course, as will trade shows and regional events. 

Thanks for your contribution to pull the rope forward, Alex!

 

Haha, no - thank YOU, you're the one doing the real work in building community here. All I did was some mental masturbation.

Edited July 25, 2019 by AlexLev

[Jim Peace]

39 minutes ago, AlexLev said:

If I was Mooney, I would consider these initiatives to build community:

would be nice if they just answered the phone..................

[59Moonster]

1 hour ago, mike_elliott said:

 existing owners in large have an adversarial attitude towards new Mooney aircraft

Do you think that is actually the case. Or that the older Mooney owners are putting the New owners into a different category because they will never be able to afford a newer one? And are therefore jealous!

[Skates97]

40 minutes ago, AlexLev said:

 

2) have a strategy to empower Mooney owners to host Mooney-specific fly-ins and fly in new aircraft for display for those flyins.

 

When we had the big fly-in at Paso Robles last year Richard Simile flew in N242KT for everyone to gawk over and sit in. He also spoke to the group for a bit and walked around handing out pens, and other stuff. I was impressed by him and the plane, and while I LOVE my plane, if I had the money I would own a M20V right alongside @mike_elliott.

[neilpilot]

2 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

I guess I can say the same thing about my 2005 Odyssey with 240K miles vs my 2019 Tesla X

Mike, how are you liking that Tesla X?

[201er]

1 hour ago, mike_elliott said:

One take away I came back with is that existing owners in large have an adversarial attitude towards new Mooney aircraft, which is sad. While quick to espouse the virtues of the legacy planes they own, as a group in large part were critical of the new planes with unfounded reasons.

The problem isnt the price, it is the ability of the existing Mooney owner to pay it. And that can be fixed by the individual if they elect to earn more. To 'dis the new ones because of one's inability to afford it only hurts the brand and our used fleet values, when the problem is really owned by the individual.

I think the point that you missed and more so Mooney International is missing is that this whole "attitude" stems not from jealousy or lack of money but from Mooney failing to produce innovation that appeals to the Mooney community. Granted, if they are trying to market outside of the Mooney community, go for it. However, the failure to get many oos and aahs from the legacy community is on them. Let me explain.

If I won the lottery, stock market, whatever and had the money to be in the market for a million dollar airplane, I would not be choosing the new Mooneys! There are other brands that can offer greater capabilities such as turbines, more seats, more speed, more engines, etc.

Would a C owner love the opportunity to swap to an E? You bet.

Would an F owner love the opportunity to swap to a J? You bet.
Would a J owner love the opportunity to swap to a K? You bet.

Would a K owner love the opportunity to swap to a M? Might depend what kind of K they have but in many cases, you bet.

Would most Mooney owners want to swap to an acclaim or ovation? You bet.

But when it comes to the ultras... they have little innovation to offer to get someone to look forward to. The avionics and interior aren't the main point because older Mooneys can be retrofitted with similar if that is what someone is interested in. The second door of course is indeed something that can only come on the new planes and is part and parcel of the Ultra only. And unfortunately that is one of the few real changes over the older airplanes. Not faster. Not safer. Not more useful load.

We're already used to climbing in with one door so it's a hard sell on Mooney owners. Of course someone who trained in Cessna or Cirrus, might see the lack of a second door as a downgrade. The appearance of a second door is only an upgrade from a Cherokee trainer but unlikely to impress anyone who's already used to having two doors in what they learned.

In the past, with every letter upgrade, Mooney was able to impress the Mooney and aviation community at large with the increased capabilities of their airplane. Those who couldn't afford, could only dream. However, I don't think it was difficult to appreciate and relish the innovation. Mooney owners are more so "value" conscious rather than dollar poor. It's probably one of the biggest draws to Mooney for many of us. We fly our Js at Bonanaza speeds with 20% less horsepower because of the value of the cleaner aerodynamics. The price increase of the new models greatly outweighs the value increase of the new features. There are definitely pilots in the Mooney community that could afford the newest model but I suspect they aren't seeing the value or innovation to draw them from the Mooneys they already own.

So it's not an act of jealousy or lack of funds. The lack of funds might be the reason we aren't making a purchase right now. But the lack of innovation is the reason we aren't dreaming of making the purchase if or when we do! I think that if Mooney wants to leverage the Mooney community for marketing their current product as opposed to Mooney as a whole, they need to go back to their roots where they kept making the airplane the dream and aspiration of the owners of past models.

I hope my input and input from other Mooney owners, rather than being seen as hostile or unfounded, could be helpful and driving. Just my four half pennies.

[David_H]

Is Mooney International actively targeting any marketing efforts towards existing Mooney owners? It would go a long way if they could somehow convey how they're supporting the existing fleet... if they are indeed looking for support from the existing Mooney community.

Mooney International appears to have a very different target demographic than current owners. It's difficult to imagine that they haven't done the market research to support their current product. Does anyone know who are they targeting?

[jetdriven]

Sadly, the Mooney product is obsolete and the market is speaking. 300+ SR20 Cirrus aircraft delivered per year for the most of the past decade. How’s many M20s? 
Why is that? 

Instead of spending money improving the M20 line, they blow 100m on the M10 failed project. Now, they have a carbon fiber cowl concept for the Ovation.  The entire Cirrus is carbon.  

Edited July 25, 2019 by jetdriven

[Danb]

I’ve had three Mooney’s two new.

My issue is not with the product offered but with the performance or non-performance of the company post purchase. The issues with us G1000 drivers literally begging the company for the better part of a decade for necessary upgrades some required to keep our planes flying, I’m referring to those of us that pushed the company to have an answer for ADSB, then came the debacle with WAAS for those of us that wanted to have current avionics, currently we can’t get imo upgraded software to render our planes at the forefront of the avionics world, where is connectivity with our avionics.

I have friends who pilot planes 30+ years older than mine with much better more refined and updated equipment.  I purchased a 2005 Bravo without the knowing an Acclaim was almost ready for the market place, it wasn’t long after I got my Bravo and the company in S Florida wanted to know if I wanted to upgrade to the Acclaim. 

The companies inability to provide innovation to the current G 1000 models have put a bad taste in me. I would and could have purchased a new Ultra but the way the company handled those of us who spent a half M on a plane 13 years ago say not again.

I love the brand but lost trust in the company 

[Niko182]

59 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Sadly, the Mooney product is obsolete and the market is speaking. 300+ SR20 Cirrus aircraft delivered per year for the most of the past decade. How’s many M20s? 
Why is that? 

Instead of spending money improving the M20 line, they blow 100m on the M10 failed project. Now, they have a carbon fiber cowl concept for the Ovation.  The entire Cirrus is carbon.  

The design of the plane doesnt matter. Itd the marketing that matters. And cirrus really knows how to do that. And they do it insanely well. The cirris is a different plane that does the same mission.everyone who has a mooney has the mission to fly usually 1 to 2 people a couple hundred NM. The only thing they have is a chute. And cirrus markets the hell out of that chute. I barely see any marketing for mooney. Everywhere i look i see cirrus'. SNA just got a new M20U acclaim. Its an extremely capable aircraft with a lot of features, but it doesnt get advertised. The cirrus gets advertised. I remember in 2006 when i was around 8 years old, and we saw the cirrus marketing team with the trailer that had a cirrus sr22  cabin in it. You could get in and check the airplane out. It has full pfd and mfd and was really comfy. Ive never seen mooney do any of that. They either need a change in marketing or a brand new team.

[Davidv]

In addition, word of mouth markets the hell out of that chute.  I can barely have a conversation with a non-pilot about my plane without them saying "hey have you heard about those planes that have parachutes?".  Despite the statistics or initial reason for the chute, it provides an immediate solution for the average person's fear and reticence to get into a small airplane.  I'm sure @MooneyMitch has some ideas (in addition to the other threads that are 100s of posts long telling Mooney how to better market itself), but Mooney needs to find its own audience.  Whenever I mention to a non-pilot that I have a Mooney and they look puzzled, I just say it's the fastest single engine you can buy (yes, I leave the "production" part out, but who cares).  

[Yetti]

Step one segment your users.

In IT I mostly use:

Admins

Power Users

Users

 

It's like colleges.   I went there and paid alot of money to get a degree.  Does that give them the right to continually ask me for money for the rest of my life.   Went to a funeral yesterday.   In lieu of flowers they suggested a donation to MD Anderson Cancer Center.   We got that covered with our monthly trips and "donations"

[hypertech]

6 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

The problem isnt the price, it is the ability of the existing Mooney owner to pay it. And that can be fixed by the individual if they elect to earn more.

Mike,

I hereby elect to earn more.  I am waiting for my check and then I will buy a new acclaim. 

I wonder how many of the Cirrus are going into partnerships or to schools and whether a high performance single with retractable gear is insurable in those situations.  I rarely hear them when I'm traveling cross country.  Some kind of training program (cough MAPA, etc) supported by an insurance company to help reduce risk and premiums could make the planes more accessible and drive demand.

Actually, I rarely hear other GA planes - occasionally a bonanza or a Cessna circling below on practice approaches.  I agree with you that its marketing and a lifestyle - they need to sell the ability to get in and go long distances easily and comfortably and that will sell the planes.

[mike_elliott]

10 minutes ago, hypertech said:

Some kind of training program (cough MAPA, etc) supported by an insurance company to help reduce risk and premiums could make the planes more accessible and drive demand

In fact, there is factory FITS based transition training by Mooney Pros, Inc. supplied with each new sale or with Kevin Kammer of Mooney. Additionally, there is a 10K training credit voucher issued with each sale. Parker and Tom Hague of Wings Insurance are well aware of the programs and typically can get clients insured very reasonably because of it. In fact, one new M20V owner doesnt have his PPL yet and is insured! Thats results!

And I hear you, we all elect to earn more  The trick is to figure out how.

[mike_elliott]

5 hours ago, Jim Peace said:

would be nice if they just answered the phone..................

Jim, at the Mooney Caravan forum, they specifically asked that you email them. Yes this makes it an asynchronous communication event vs they drop everything to get on a new issue (synchronous). That said, their phone system sucks. I have told them that. They could have a nice auto attendant system set up that is not a moat but a communication enabler. No one wants Stacey pulled off of working on their issue to be chaotically put on another by phone call. Email does allow them to prioritize as they need vs. chaos. 

I do believe they need to improve their front door and will continue to put on low pressure and constantly apply it.

[Jan Maxwell]

6 hours ago, AlexLev said:

I agree with you, but I also think the Mooney brand needs to have a strategy to empower the Mooney community and work with us to foster that goodwill and brand evangelism...

...If I was Mooney, I would consider these initiatives to build community:

8) put a program in place where MSCs can host Mooney-specific events/fly-ins/etc to increase education among Mooney maintenance among owners. they should have some leverage in order allow these repair stations to use the Mooney logo and be a "licensed repair station."

Just some ideas from someone whose job it is to build communities around brands (not aviation field).

Great ideas and agree.

As to #8:  MooneyMAX is a non-profit formed specifically for Mooney education. MooneyMAX 2020 will be a 3-day educational Conference for Mooney owners of all models the first of May. 

Returning and confirmed guest speakers are Mike Busch, Bob Minnis, Bob Kromer, Jimmy Garrison, and others. 

NO pilot knows EVERYTHING! Aviation education and knowledge of our Mooney’s should be a constant goal. 

Would love to hear ideas and suggestions of areas owners would like covered. 

[Yetti]

48 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

Jim, at the Mooney Caravan forum, they specifically asked that you email them. Yes this makes it an asynchronous communication event vs they drop everything to get on a new issue (synchronous). That said, their phone system sucks. I have told them that. They could have a nice auto attendant system set up that is not a moat but a communication enabler. No one wants Stacey pulled off of working on their issue to be chaotically put on another by phone call. Email does allow them to prioritize as they need vs. chaos. 

I do believe they need to improve their front door and will continue to put on low pressure and constantly apply it.

There are bots now that will handle technical questions (kind of like Mooneyspace).  It kind of comes down to does mooney view the current owners as valuable.   Or are they focusing on new potential owners.   Or both.  I have done Grass roots marketing for bike races using current electronic means.    We had blogs and created a vibe.   Since the factory uses a dealer network, the best you are going to get is a good vibe going with the dealers.      Here are some ideas off the top of my head.   Owner build/pick up program like some of the car companies.   Can I spec out the interior/paint I want?   The value is in the tooling and dies.   Is there a way to trade time for value.  A blog.  

[mooneyflyer]

6 hours ago, Jim Peace said:

would be nice if they just answered the phone..................

This is extremely important.  New model Mooney owners need to know that Mooney takes really good care of their installed base.  It's part of a buy decision!

[carusoam]

True... few of us buy brand new airplanes...

True... Many of us form the secondary market that converts the newer planes to cash after a decade or two of use...

I hung out around the Mooney area and I spoke with a new Ovation owner... we were in the same shoes (mission wise).

I saw a great lightweight cowl that would go great on my O1... each pound I save up front takes a pound of lead out of the back... It looks like a 70LB increase of UL could be possible...

So I got to ask a question at the press conference...

So later, I asked for a couple of hinges to go with... it would be great to open the cowl as a pre-flight exercise every now and then...

I also got to shake the hands of Kevin and Angela...

Knowing That there are things that go right and things that go wrong in business... I would want to hear about them all in an organized fashion... The really messed up carb heat situation in Jim’s M20C deserves to be heard... something went awry and the customer is still annoyed...publicly.

I also was looking for my next Mooney...

I bought my last one when it was 15years young...

I can foresee... my next one is being built this year for me to buy pre-owned in about 15 more years....

Kevin and Angela were quite easy to speak with... no cold shoulders... no ‘go away kid, ya bother me’...

+1 try to help sell new Mooneys so I can buy a nice pre-owned one in the future...

Let me know if I missed something...

Marketing and selling machines has changed a lot in 30years... paper brochures have become YouTube videos...

Kevin and Angela, let me know if I can help... I know of a few people around MS that have your back... and bunch of others around here that want to know you have theirs...  

Customer relations is on a two way street...keep up the good work... let’s sell some machines...

I’d really like a turbine Mooney in the next go round... that’s a lot of stars to get aligned... but we have time!

Best regards,

-a-