2019 Acclaim Ultra down at DVT

[MikeOH]

On 6/21/2019 at 5:09 PM, N201MKTurbo said:

https://www.carnegiehero.org/nominate/

 

I completed the online nomination for Thomas Hunnicutt.  I'd like to think many others have already done so, but I wasn't going to assume that.

If they don't award this guy, I sure don't know what it would take!

Edited June 24, 2019 by MikeOH

[mike_elliott]

10 hours ago, MikeOH said:

I completed the online nomination for Thomas Hunnicutt.  I'd like to think many others have already done so, but I wasn't going to assume that.

If they don't award this guy, I sure don't know what it would take!

Thanks Mike. You saved me the trouble, so I also just nominated Bobby Forsythe, the gent who pulled me from a burning plane in July of 2014. By chance do you have an email or address from Tom? I am trying to put together an "appreciation" package for his family. 

 

[Davidv]

I just saw that the NTSB posted their preliminary report a few days ago if anyone had not seen it yet. I'm sure it's consistent with what most people know so far, but thought I would post:

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20190611X90234&AKey=1&RType=Prelim&IType=LA

Also wishing the very best for the pilot and his family as well as a full recovery.

[Shadrach]

 Horrible outcome but could have been worse on many levels. I hope he makes a speedy recovery. Would welcome his commentary on how he ended up in such an unfortunate scenario. Being that I am unfamiliar with the area, I can only speculate what he might have been up against. I am sure there is much to be learned that I don't understand.  I imagine that P48 may have seemed too short for a deadstick 4200ft.  Perhaps DVT initially seemed too populated for a dead-stick.  No time like the present to practice engine out energy management all the way to the flare. I am hopeful for the pilot and very grateful there were no ground injuries.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Shadrach

[Gary0747]

How much different is the best glide speed for a M20V from the other Mooneys?

[Shadrach]

On 6/24/2019 at 5:24 PM, Gary0747 said:

How much different is the best glide speed for a M20V from the other Mooneys?

It varies by weight just like the rest. similar weight=similar Vbg. 

BEST GLIDE SPEED

3368 lb./1528 kg 91.5 KIAS  

3200 lb./1452 kg 89.0 KIAS

2900 lb./1315 kg 84.5 KIAS 

2600 lb./1179 kg 80.0 KIAS

I'd caution against trying to derive too much from the flightaware track log ground speeds.  With winds aloft, adjustment for altitude and other variables about the best that can be said is that he was in a range that could have been Vbg.  What can be said pretty certainly is that he had adequate altitude at the onset of the failure to make two airports (P48 and DVT) with a decent margin if he had committed to one of them.  I am curious to read his account.

 

Edited June 27, 2019 by Shadrach

[MrRodgers]

Does anyone have an update on the pilot or the suspected cause of the crash?

[exM20K]

https://www.12news.com/article/news/pilot-in-deer-valley-plane-crash-reported-rough-running-engine-minutes-after-takeoff-report-says/75-dffe37a9-3dea-4b37-a86a-b0cd84c7abab

 

No update on his condition.  Rough running engine could be a lot of things. It was very hot that day, and the plane had reportedly sat outside, so fuel vaporization will surely be looked at.

-dan

[Gary0747]

I was trying to understand what appeared to be a higher decent rate than I would expect. He lost about 8,000 feet in 7 or 8 minutes if that data on Flight Aware is to be believed.  

[aviatoreb]

One thing occurs to me.  Any new engine whether newly overhauled or factory new is at increased risk of sudden death syndrome - a freak failure of some kind of the power plant is a higher risk during that first 50 hours or so, even in a new engine installed in a new airplane.

Edited June 26, 2019 by aviatoreb

[Gary0747]

The other note worthy thing in the prelim report is that he was offered two airports by the controller Glendale at 12 miles and P48 which is not much of an airport. Was he not initially offered DVT with its 7000 foot runway at only 8 miles which would have been easily makable had he not started toward Glendale.   I know from having flown out of DVT it can be a flight training busy airport and a major task to clear out all the closed circuit training traffic for an inbound emergency flight.  Or was the fact the pilot initially reporting a rough engine rather than an engine out part of the thinking to chose the more distant airport? I guess we will need to wait for the final report to get all the answers. 

[Shadrach]

22 minutes ago, Gary0747 said:

The other note worthy thing in the prelim report is that he was offered two airports by the controller Glendale at 12 miles and P48 which is not much of an airport. Was he not initially offered DVT with its 7000 foot runway at only 8 miles which would have been easily makable had he not started toward Glendale.   I know from having flown out of DVT it can be a flight training busy airport and a major task to clear out all the closed circuit training traffic for an inbound emergency flight.  Or was the fact the pilot initially reporting a rough engine rather than an engine out part of the thinking to chose the more distant airport? I guess we will need to wait for the final report to get all the answers. 

4000’ is more than a lot of active GA fields. It may not seem like much of an airport, but it’s better than most off airport options. Even if the airplane ends up bent and in the ditch off the departure end.  I agree the descent rate seemed high. Would like to here his account. Glad it looks like he’ll live to tell the tale.

[Gary0747]

I have driven to see that airport P48.  It is basically an ultra lite and hang glider operation. I doubt many have radios. That 4000 foot runway is dirt and gravel.   Even though I was flying frequently out of DVT I decided to never fly there. But given the choice between the roadway and this AP I would take it. 

[kortopates]

19 minutes ago, Gary0747 said:

I have driven to see that airport P48.  It is basically an ultra lite and hang glider operation. I doubt many have radios.  Even though I was flying frequently out of DVT I decided to never fly there. But given the choice between the roadway and this AP I would take it. 

I can easily imagine Mooney pilots bypassing it once they realized all runways where dirt or gravel in addition to not being controlled. But a very attractive thing about the field is its surrounded by mostly open space; at least compared to the other options. My guess is he felt he had the altitude to be able to make one of the other larger paved and controlled fields; but why GEU or DVT I wonder except these are pretty instantaneous decisions. But one very positive thing you can say about going down in the city, unlike in some open space area, is that someone was right there to lend assistance when things did go terribly wrong on landing (hitting the light pole).

Just hoping he pulls through okay and big thank you to the amazing Mr Hunnicut for pulling him from the burning wreckage in time. 

Edited June 25, 2019 by kortopates

[MikeOH]

10 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

Thanks Mike. You saved me the trouble, so I also just nominated Bobby Forsythe, the gent who pulled me from a burning plane in July of 2014. By chance do you have an email or address from Tom? I am trying to put together an "appreciation" package for his family. 

 

Sorry, I do not.  Maybe contact the reporter at the Phoenix TV station?

I just provided links to some of the news reports and Kathryn's Report.  I got an acknowledgement from Carnegie Hero Foundation saying they are considering his nomination.

[DXB]

On 6/24/2019 at 3:48 PM, Davidv said:

I just saw that the NTSB posted their preliminary report a few days ago if anyone had not seen it yet. I'm sure it's consistent with what most people know so far, but thought I would post:

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20190611X90234&AKey=1&RType=Prelim&IType=LA

Also wishing the very best for the pilot and his family as well as a full recovery.

It’s a real shame controllers didn’t point out DVT at the outset (certainly not directing any blame their way - no clue what their circumstances were).  But pilot probably would have made it to DVT, and we could instead focus on learning about engine failure modes, not pilot’s survival.  

[ArtVandelay]

It’s a real shame controllers didn’t point out DVT at the outset (certainly not directing any blame their way - no clue what their circumstances were).  But pilot probably would have made it to DVT, and we could instead focus on learning about engine failure modes, not pilot’s survival.  

It’s the shame the pilot didn’t do: direct-nearest? My guess is since the engine was running rough at first he focused on fixing the engine instead.


Tom

[mike_elliott]

8 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

It’s the shame the pilot didn’t do: direct-nearest? My guess is since the engine was running rough at first he focused on fixing the engine instead.

Tom, you dont know the NXI. as there is a nearest softkey on the PDF which brings up an inset. You also dont know Mark did not have this up as default as suggested in training.

[Danb]

Mike I have the G-1000 not as current technology as the NXI, but I always fly with the nearest airport in the inset, I'd bet he did also, but this close to his departure he may not have set up the inset which is merely a button push. Generally I set it up when I reach cruising altitude if he did the same it most likely wasn't set up yet?

Prayers are extended...

[mike_elliott]

Dan I wont presume he didn't have the soft key nrst active prior to departure. Could this have prevented it, probably not. This was an engine issue, not a situational awareness issue. Speculating about his training, his awareness of where he was in relation to an airport, etc wont change the engine issue cause, nor help him. ATC was with him the whole way.

 

[RogueOne]

“It”/conjecture ALWAYS happens.  Can a thread ever be to report on the known and how the individuals are doing?

Answer:  NOPE

[gsxrpilot]

1 minute ago, RogueOne said:

“It”/conjecture ALWAYS happens.  

Which I still maintain is a good thing and in no way disparaging of the pilot. We all benefit from a discussion that reveals ALL the possible scenarios and helps us think through them now on the ground so we can make better decisions in the air.

I have learned from this discussion already, about the concept of having the NRST page already loaded on my Navigator prior to takeoff. This is new information to me and something I hadn't thought about. I'll certainly see how this works on my very next flight.

Again, no disrespect at all to the pilot here, I will assume that he did everything he could under the conditions, and likely better than I would have done under the same conditions. But I want to learn and this is a learning opportunity for all of us

[Shadrach]

I think another easy take away is that if 4200’ of clear dirt in an unpopulated area is a sure thing don’t pass it up for a more attractive maybe.

[gsxrpilot]

I'm afraid that if I was in this situation, that I would be slow to "declare and emergency". Now if I get a loud bang and the prop stops, or departs the airplane, or if my windshield is covered in oil, then I'd probably be quick. But if the engine was stumbling, surging, unable to make full power, etc... I'm afraid I'd be slow to declare and would spend too much time troubleshooting and not leave myself enough time to find a good spot. 

I can imagine if this were me... I'd have said, yeah DVT is busy, I'll head to Glendale, completely overconfident in my ability to nurse the engine along and get where I want to go...

I'm not proud of this, just humbled by it...

[aviatoreb]

28 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I'm afraid that if I was in this situation, that I would be slow to "declare and emergency". Now if I get a loud bang and the prop stops, or departs the airplane, or if my windshield is covered in oil, then I'd probably be quick. But if the engine was stumbling, surging, unable to make full power, etc... I'm afraid I'd be slow to declare and would spend too much time troubleshooting and not leave myself enough time to find a good spot. 

I can imagine if this were me... I'd have said, yeah DVT is busy, I'll head to Glendale, completely overconfident in my ability to nurse the engine along and get where I want to go...

I'm not proud of this, just humbled by it...

How do you react to your self-observation - you can re-orient your likely reaction by promising yourself now, that if such ever happens that you will not turn up a DVT type solution.

Here is my own worry regarding myself - I DID once have a complete engine failure emergency, but at high altitude and I did manage to actually find a nice runway and land on it.  Now I am a little worried that this makes me more likely to always expect that - unless I keep telling myself to not always expect a nice runway, that I may well make a bad decision in the heat of the moment some other time - knock on wood - if it were to come.