Autopilot options currently available?

[Dan208]

I have been looking at airplanes and alot of the ones I like do not have an autopilot system.  I am looking for ballpark numbers for what would be available for an E .

 What can a guy get done with out waiting forever waiting for the Tru Track stc?  Would it be better to do it with a panel all at once ? 

My primary mission will be commuting 450 miles on a regular basis . I know I don't want to hand fly it over and over .  What would the GFC 500 cost if they get it approved for the short bodies ?  

S Tec options ? 

Thanks

[Niko182]

9 minutes ago, Dan208 said:

I have been looking at airplanes and alot of the ones I like do not have an autopilot system.  I am looking for ballpark numbers for what would be available for an E .

 What can a guy get done with out waiting forever waiting for the Tru Track stc?  Would it be better to do it with a panel all at once ? 

My primary mission will be commuting 450 miles on a regular basis . I know I don't want to hand fly it over and over .  What would the GFC 500 cost if they get it approved for the short bodies ?  

S Tec options ? 

Thanks

Stec 3100 is an option. that'll probably cost around 28 to 30 k tho.
GFC500 is around 14K installed, and then you need a G5 AI for another 2.7K.
G3X makes your panel even nicer. For example, I'm installing the GFC500 with
YD and PT, with a G3X, G5, and a GNX375. I'd personally take the garmin route,
but some people don't like that way. I'm a garmin fan TBH.

[carusoam]

Buy plane fully loaded with everything you want...

This is the lowest cost method of getting an AP in a plane.

Installation of APs are complex... it includes three or four electro mechanical devices and a computer which all need to be installed... similar in complexity as installing multiple radios...

Many Mooneys came from the factory with the AP installed... few have been upgraded since...

 

AP replacement cycles for APs must be about every 30years... so a bunch of us are ready for the new cycle...

In this case... un-installation of the old system will be part of the process...

 

We are on the edge of many APs getting approved... then adopted... 

If you are not in love with being on the leading edge of new technology... waiting is the only choice...

If you are not willing to wait to spend 10s of AMUs... seriously consider finding a plane with an operating instrument panel already...

 

wading through the sales barrage... wondering if BK will be able to replace parts of an old system with a new system can be thoroughly disappointing... 

When you have an AP that works, you comfortably wait to see what everybody else is installing...

Probably not what anyone wants to hear...  but, the new APs sure are powerful.

Best regards,

-a-

[Dan208]

Wow , I thought Garmin would be the big number .  I was reading about the GFC 500 here , it sounds amazing.  

[DXB]

For a short body, I don't know if GFC500 or Trutrak will be approved first.  Only half cost for the latter with only slightly less functionality would make me lean strongly toward the latter. 

[Dan208]

The display that Garmin had to show off the G3X touch was really cool. It is hard not wanting that panel. GFC 500 for short body planes is unavailable correct? Is there a garmin unit that is available now?

Edited April 26, 2019 by Dan208

[ArtVandelay]

No, both TT and GFC 500 would be in 2020 timeframe at the earliest. Wait for more updates at Oshkosh.


Tom

[Bob - S50]

The advantage of buying an airplane with an autopilot already installed is you have it now.  The disadvantage is that it will be an old system that uses old servos.  If those are King servos, they are expensive to maintain.  Don't know about STEC servos.  And when you decide you want a better autopilot you'll have to spend time and or money to remove the old system.

The advantage of buying a plane without an autopilot is you will eventually get to choose and install a modern autopilot.  But you'll have to hand fly for awhile.  We've been hand flying over a year now waiting on Garmin.  We'll continue to hand fly until October when we have it installed.

Personally, I believe the TruTrak will be approved for the E before the Garmin will be.  The E model is on the Garmin list to begin testing sometime in the next 12 months.  So you are looking at 12 to 24 months before it is available.  For an equivalent system, the Garmin costs $2000 + G5 more that TruTrak.  So the TruTrak could be $5000 - $6000 less to install.  However, replacing an old mechanical ADI with a G5, Dynon D10A, or Aerovonics AV-30 (when available) is not a bad idea anyway.

And what you get depends on what you want.

Want manual electric trim?  Garmin (costs you an extra servo though - $2000 + install?)

Want a yaw damper with that?  Garmin (costs you another servo)

Want to legally fly coupled instrument approaches now? Garmin.

Willing to wait for eventual coupled approaches?  TT would be less expensive.

Happy with an autopilot that can physically fly a coupled approach in an emergency even if you can't legally use it day to day?  TruTrak would be less expensive.

Just want something to reduce the workload enroute, always hand fly your approaches anyway, don't care about electric trim or yaw damper?  TruTrak.

Want that G3X look?  Garmin with a G3X and G5, Dynon Skyview, or TruTrak with a G3X.

It's only money.

[Dan208]

Thanks for all of the information.  I start adding up all of the upgrades I will want in an E , and then I look at the cost of a K . Or even the FIKI Bravo that All American has right now .  I could end up with 150 K in a short body really quick .

Decisions,  decisions. 

But that is a whole other topic.

[MIm20c]

1 hour ago, Dan208 said:

Thanks for all of the information.  I start adding up all of the upgrades I will want in an E , and then I look at the cost of a K . Or even the FIKI Bravo that All American has right now .  I could end up with 150 K in a short body really quick .

Decisions,  decisions. 

But that is a whole other topic.

I agree but remember with a more expensive airframe the “necessary” upgrades will be easier to justify. 

[Dan208]

30 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

I agree but remember with a more expensive airframe the “necessary” upgrades will be easier to justify. 

That's just it , that E turns into a Forever plane after you dump 60 into the panel. My airplane addiction is terrible.  

[Yetti]

15 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

Ill put my CIO hat on for you, because all this is is software and IT stuff.  .  In IT we have a saying. "Whats the difference between a second hand car salesman and a software salesman?  The car salesman knows hes talking bullshit"

and with those words of wisdom in your ears, go shopping, but honestly the cheapest option is to buy one with a working BK kap150 or above ap already installed and working.  There are OTHER APs but from what ive learnt on here, the centurys etc seem to all be failng at an alarming rate.  

Andrew

I'll add most of it right now is vaporware and don't buy from a powerpoint.   

If the plane has a Brittian 2 axis wing leveler and an Accutrac II   it really is a pretty good set up and will fly courses to what it connected to in the panel.  Mooney's are easy to hand fly and kind of fun to play around with once they are in trim and leaning forward or back.   If it has a king they are starting to go south also. 

[Cyril Gibb]

I have a two axis Century 2000 that I’m happy with.  I don’t hear much about the new Century 4000 boxes during autopilot discussions.  Anyone have any experience?

[gsxrpilot]

What @carusoam said. I just wouldn't buy a Mooney without an autopilot. I bought an M20C in 2014 for $48K that had an Stec30/altitude hold. I now fly a 252, $119K, with a KFC150 with pre-select. In five years I've yet to spend one dime maintaining an autopilot. I've found both to be very reliable. 

It's not easy to find a short body with an autopilot, but just keep looking. They come up for sale every once in a while. And are still a good buy. But have your cash, pre-buy, logistics, all ready to go when the plane appears.

Buying an airplane without an autopilot anticipating that there will be one available in the "near future" just leads to disappointment. I'll reference several members on this forum who are about to lose patience and sell their Mooneys that are still waiting for new autopilots to be approved for their Mooneys. We just don't know when it's going to happen. And when they eventually come out, you can buy one to replace the Stec/King/Century just as easily as you can install one in a Mooney without an autopilot. 

Be patient, get your ducks lined up, be ready to buy when the right Mooney comes along. It will be a much better financial decision to buy an E with an Stec30/altitude hold, minimum, rather than buying one without and upgrading.

[M20F-1968]

If you but a plane with an S-Tec autopilot, you can upgrade and keep your old servos.  Just make sure the S-TEC servos you have are compatible and are new enough to be rebuildable.  The older ones have motors that are not rebuildable.

 

[ArtVandelay]

If you but a plane with an S-Tec autopilot, you can upgrade and keep your old servos.  Just make sure the S-TEC servos you have are compatible and are new enough to be rebuildable.  The older ones have motors that are not rebuildable.
 

I didn’t know that, how do you know...date installed, serial #, ?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[M20F-1968]

When I bought my plane it had the S-TEC servos, controlled and turn and bank installed, but the flight computers had been stolen.  I purchased a used S-TEC 6-2 from Dallas Air Salvage and sent everything back to S-TEC.  They advised me that the servos that were in my plane were too old be to rebuilt.  They were able to rebuild the ones I purchased from Dallas Air Salvage.  I asked S-TEC to go through everything and make one good system for me.  I was one of the last people they were willing to change configurations for without paying a ton of money.  The used system I purchased came from a Bonanza.  The servos were converted to the Mooney configuration and rebuilt.  I have an extra controller and S-Tec turn co-ordinator which were rebuilt at the same time on the shelf.  At the time, I spent about $3000 for the used system and $3000 for S-TEC to do the work.  You can not touch those prices today or even get the work done at all.  This was back in 2004.

[hmasing]

On 4/26/2019 at 4:43 PM, Dan208 said:

That's just it , that E turns into a Forever plane after you dump 60 into the panel. My airplane addiction is terrible.  

That's a true story.  I bought a $45,000 '68 F.  Have put $35,000 into the panel, windows, interior, and so on.  I'll get her original paint stripped and repainted and get the hail damage fixed in a couple years to the tune of another $20,000.  I'll drop another $10K on the GFC-500 when it is STC'd, since I already cut a hole for it in the new panel.

When I'm done, I'll have a $60,000 '68 F.  It's my forever plane at that loss.

[S.C.]

16 minutes ago, hmasing said:

That's a true story.  I bought a $45,000 '68 F.  Have put $35,000 into the panel, windows, interior, and so on.  I'll get her original paint stripped and repainted and get the hail damage fixed in a couple years to the tune of another $20,000.  I'll drop another $10K on the GFC-500 when it is STC'd, since I already cut a hole for it in the new panel.

When I'm done, I'll have a $60,000 '68 F.  It's my forever plane at that loss.

I like this approach. My recently acquired 65 20C has been that type of project for me. The more time we spend together, the more I realize this is the forever plane. 

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard SC.

A 65C makes a great forever plane...  just depends on a few things like how many and how long the legs are in the back...seats.  

Or in the front seats... or both...

I had a C for a decade...then the kids got to be full size...

Best regards,

-a-

[65eTurbo]

On 4/27/2019 at 7:45 AM, Cyril Gibb said:

I have a two axis Century 2000 that I’m happy with.  I don’t hear much about the new Century 4000 boxes during autopilot discussions.  Anyone have any experience?

Love my Century 2000.  Biggest issue has been keeping gyros functioning.  Interface from Aspen should solve that.

[steingar]

Like the guys said, keep looking.  There are short body Mooneys out there with all kinds of stuff.  You'll pay a premium for them, but its nothing compared to the cost of putting all that stuff in.  Besides, if you look long enough the cheaper autopilots might get STC'd while you're searching.  That said, I think the newer ones don't do the tricks the older boxes do, like approaches and stuff.  If I'm wrong, someone please correct me on that.

[65eTurbo]

Also, if you fine one with a functioning PC system, I think there was a cheap way of adding altitude hold and heading or nav tracking (a decade ago anyway).    While I love that my C2000 can shoot approaches, I'd get 90 percent of functionality if I could just keep nav or even heading and altitude on cross countries.

 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, steingar said:

Like the guys said, keep looking.  There are short body Mooneys out there with all kinds of stuff.  You'll pay a premium for them, but its nothing compared to the cost of putting all that stuff in.  Besides, if you look long enough the cheaper autopilots might get STC'd while you're searching.  That said, I think the newer ones don't do the tricks the older boxes do, like approaches and stuff.  If I'm wrong, someone please correct me on that.

My AccuFlite will follow the magenta line beautifully on approach, but I still have to manage speed and the vertical part if I want to land . . . The AccuTrak is great for traveling, just set the heading bug the direction I want to go and it heads that way, wings level. But again, I have to adjust for crosswind myself by nudging the heading bug around. Great functionality at a low cost, and apparently will soon be available again. Altitude hold is available, but are more scarce and priced higher on the very-used market. You still have to manage climb and descent, I think--I've never flown in a plane that had one to know.

[Bob - S50]

8 hours ago, steingar said:

That said, I think the newer ones don't do the tricks the older boxes do, like approaches and stuff.  If I'm wrong, someone please correct me on that.

All the new autopilots are capable of flying an approach.  However, currently only the Garmin AP can legally do so.  Not only can it fly LPV and ILS approaches, it can also do VNAV descents (think descent via clearances), capture altitudes, fly the missed approach, fly holding patterns, do IAS or VS climbs/descents, and return to straight and level with the push of a button.

In short, other than running the throttle for me, it can do more than the AP in my DC9 could do, and do almost everything the AP in my 757 could do.