Trade offs between an F and J model

[christothes]

I'm beginning the search for a Mooney and I thought I had narrowed the choices down to J model. However, now I'm questioning if it's really worth the premium over a well equipped late model F. Assuming a similarly equipped F with a few speed mods, can you guys help me with some pros and cons? After a fair amount of research,  here are a few to start with.

Pros of a J model over an F

• generally at least 10 years newer airframe
• Speed mods already built in
• Generally better cockpit configuration depending on year
• Higher VLE ('78+)
• Better fuel switch (not sure what year the 'off in the middle' ended)
• A few extra knots depending on the speed mods on an F

Cons of a J model

• Good examples priced at least 20-30k more than similarly equipped F

[Shadrach]

When talking about airframes of this age, I’m not sure that 10 years means a lot and it means less and less every year. 

Indeed if I were shopping, I’d want an F that had been modded to  201 or left completely stock. The various cowl enclosure mods are not my cup of tea. That being said there’s about 10kts separating the two stock airframes. That amounts to very little in terms of block travel time. The 201 has more ramp appeal because it is a better looking plane. It still looks modern today.

load carrying capability is usually in the older birds favor. The MGW increase in the 1990s helped to make the 201 more useable but it needs to be handled accordingly when packed to 2900lbs. 

Some folks prefer the manual gear. I count myself in that camp. 

Interior and equipment vary so much from plane to plane that they need to be eveluated case by case. Early Fs have removable, split rear seat backs. 

At the end of the day you need to prioritize your goals. An unmodded F model will do >90% of what a J will do, but won’t look as good or as modern doing it. There’s a value to having the newer bird, but I think it’s almost all in aesthetics. If you crunch the performance numbers alone, there is not a huge delta between them.

Edited April 7, 2019 by Shadrach

[gsxrpilot]

You've got two great responses there. There really isn't anything else to add. 

[FloridaMan]

I would prefer my 1967 M20F to a similarly equipped J. I have an electric flap/gear and a manual flap/gear Mooney and very much prefer the manual gear. In addition to lights to check for gear down, my fingernail checks the Johnson Bar on its own while on approach. It not being where it should be has alerted me that my gear is still up in the past. The IO360-A1A can be a less expensive overhaul if the crankshaft needs to be replaced. Also, engines without the single drive dual magneto (those with the "D" designation in the engine model number) are preferable as the dual magneto has killed people (there's a plastic gear that can fail, as well as it is a single unit that, if not properly attached, can result in complete engine failure). The IO360-A1A does have a "keep out" RPM range for cruise. 

A lighter airplane does mean lower wing loading and not as good of a ride in turbulence. 

You can still get an old F with a 1000lb useful load and 64 gallon tanks. That's good for 5+ hours of range plus reserves. You'll be ready to land by then unless you're @201er. 

Also, to add, there are airworthiness directives on some of the older hubs on the F. You'll want to see if it has the hub that requires the 100hr inspection. 

[rbridges]

If you get a J, you get to hang out in the modern mooney section.  If you get an F, you're relegated to the vintage section with us common folk where the J people look down at you.  

[Bob_Belville]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

<snip> ...The various cowl enclosure mods are not my cup of tea.... The 201 has more ramp appeal because it is a better looking plane. It still looks modern today.

 

Yeah, the Vintage (pre-J) Mooneys are downright ugly. 

[Marauder]

If you get a J, you get to hang out in the modern mooney section.  If you get an F, you're relegated to the vintage section with us common folk where the J people look down at you.  

So which panel should hang out in the modern section.

This J’s?



Oh sorry! This happens to be in a lowly F.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[rbridges]

7 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

So which panel should hang out in the modern section.

This J’s?



Oh sorry! This happens to be in a lowly F.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

Aw c'mon, you don't need that fancy panel.  Your lady friends open doors for you everywhere, including mooneyspace.

[Shadrach]

9 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Yeah, the Vintage (pre-J) Mooneys are downright ugly. 

 

Not exactly stock Bob!

i was thinking something more OEM like my bird...

[Bob_Belville]

3 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

 

Not exactly stock Bob!

i was thinking something more OEM like my bird...

 

Yup. But put about 20 AMUs into that F for SabreCowl and Hawk paint and she will fill up her dance card faster than a typical J at $30k higher price. Makes you wonder why @Marauderhasn't freshen up his late F... 

[Shadrach]

28 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Yup. But put about 20 AMUs into that F for SabreCowl and Hawk paint and she will fill up her dance card faster than a typical J at $30k higher price. Makes you wonder why @Marauderhasn't freshen up his late F... 

Economics for me. Two kids under 4, new business...plus as pretty as yours is, I’d bet that in level flight she’ll just ever so slightly walk away from my all original time capsule. At several $1000 per knot, I have other holes to throw money down...

 

[Yetti]

A 70s model F and a 70s model J are pretty similar except for the speed mods.  But the price differential is pretty steep for the step up to the F.   Purchase price of an airplane is not where the money is.  Maintenance is where the money goes.  I think I can carry 1100lbs in my 75 F.  Other than the long bodies I think an annual on most mooneys is similar cost.

[MBDiagMan]

If the Tail number weren’t visible would you be able to tell if she is an F or a J?

[Yetti]

15 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

If the Tail number weren’t visible would you be able to tell if she is an F or a J?

Not that you are going to drop it off the jacks, but if you turn the prop horizontal it will 40K less if you do.

[rbridges]

18 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

If the Tail number weren’t visible would you be able to tell if she is an F or a J?

Looks like it had chicken feet.

[Shadrach]

30 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

If the Tail number weren’t visible would you be able to tell if she is an F or a J?

I can tell it’s an F. It has the labor intensive to build smooth control services.  The new birds have more of a “Cessna style” corrugate.

[ArtVandelay]

If the Tail number weren’t visible would you be able to tell if she is an F or a J?

She looks well cared for, and I like the paint design.
In the end, it doesn’t matter much except on resale.
Personally, I wanted electric flaps/gear and the higher Vge speeds along with higher resale since I always planned to upgrade panel, so a J it was.


Tom

[PT20J]

Well, I always though Mike Busch's advice to buy the latest model, lowest time airframe you can find/afford to be a good idea. An older model is not a bad idea if you want to leave it pretty much as is, but if you go mod crazy, you will put a  lot  of money in it that you are unlikely to recoup. On the other hand, Mooney got carried away adding bells and whistles to later versions that didn't really add anything but cost to maintain: two position electric flaps, electric cowl flaps, LED gear and flap indicators, etc. 

[rbridges]

8 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Well, I always though Mike Busch's advice to buy the latest model, lowest time airframe you can find/afford to be a good idea. An older model is not a bad idea if you want to leave it pretty much as is, but if you go mod crazy, you will put a  lot  of money in it that you are unlikely to recoup. On the other hand, Mooney got carried away adding bells and whistles to later versions that didn't really add anything but cost to maintain: two position electric flaps, electric cowl flaps, LED gear and flap indicators, etc. 

Yeah, I crossed that mental line last year. I came to realize that the C model works for my wife and me, and it will probably be my plane for a long time.  

[201er]

36 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I much prefer our C’s smooth control surfaces to my former J’s corrugated ones, too, Ross.  It is still a “tell”, though. I can spot even a very well modified Mooney from across the ramp.  That having been said, I am very happy with our C and have no desire to modify it.  It is bone stock aerodynamically and is only 12 knots slower at cruise than my early J was.  Like you said, the difference in performance is a lot less than people think.  

Jim

You wanna give a few KTAS/GPH comparison numbers between the two? How’s the useful load?

[201er]

6 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

They both have 64 gallon bladders and 960-965 pound useful loads.   The C is PowerFlow equipped and has a fresh roller tapet engine whereas the J’s engine was healthy but at TBO.  With both at 2500 RPM, WOT, and leaned for best power at 8,000’ DA the J would do 159 KTAS and the C 147 KTAS, both on a good day.  143 KTAS was the best we could get out of the C under these conditions prior to the new engine and exhaust, which went on at the same time.  The C isn’t fuel flow equipped so I can’t compare fuel flows, but it seems to be thirstier than the J was all else being equal, presumably due to the PFS exhaust.  

How does your J do under those conditions, Mike?

Can get 160-165ktas at the absolute best case scenario with best power, best altitude, 75% power, drinking 13gph. Likewise can get about 152-154ktas at 10gph at 75% LOP. Again in the best case. 140-145ktas on 8-8.5gph all day long and very efficient, quieter, less oil burn, just nicer upkeep in the long run.

[smccray]

Operating cost likely to be very similar. A slightly lower fuel bill- so close you probably don’t notice. Slightly higher maintenance bill for some of the J “enhancements.”  I’d take the newer ones plane.  The difference is slight- $20-30k, but you get it back when you sell the plane.

[Hank]

54 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

They both have 64 gallon bladders and 960-965 pound useful loads.   The C is PowerFlow equipped and has a fresh roller tapet . .  at 2500 RPM, WOT, and leaned for best power at 8,000’ DA the C 147 KTAs. 143 KTAS was the best we could get out of the C under these conditions prior to the new engine and exhaust, which went on at the same time.  The C isn’t fuel flow equipped so I can’t compare fuel flows.

Sounds like my C, with 970 Useful and original 52 gals. No Power Flow, the engine has 850 hours, a 201 windshield and 3-blade Hartzell speed brake. But still 147-148 KTAS, with block fuel burn ~9gph.

The difference going to F/J is fuel injection, 20 hp, 10" behind the front seat and a few more knots. An awful lot of the price difference will be found in the panel, but look at Bob's E . . . It's pretty much a short-body J with manual gear and flaps. Since resurrecting my doghouse [another benefit of the J! It's gone.] and working on the carb heat box, I can operate smoothly LOP at altitude, smoothly. Who'd have thunk? 

Expect Es to be faster than both C and F models, but Js may or may not walk away from one.

[gsxrpilot]

N6XM (may she rest in peace) was a legitimate 153 - 155 knot TAS M20C. I often wondered what it would have been like with an IO360 under the cowl. I do like my turbo, but when I'm done with it, I think I'd like to build an E like @Bob_Belville. And see if one could be built that would out run the J's.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

Sounds like my C, with 970 Useful and original 52 gals. No Power Flow, the engine has 850 hours, a 201 windshield and 3-blade Hartzell speed brake. But still 147-148 KTAS, with block fuel burn ~9gph.

The difference going to F/J is fuel injection, 20 hp, 10" behind the front seat and a few more knots. An awful lot of the price difference will be found in the panel, but look at Bob's E . . . It's pretty much a short-body J with manual gear and flaps. Since resurrecting my doghouse [another benefit of the J! It's gone.] and working on the carb heat box, I can operate smoothly LOP at altitude, smoothly. Who'd have thunk? 

Expect Es to be faster than both C and F models, but Js may or may not walk away from one.

Fs don’t have dog houses. My Dad had an E before the F, there’s almost no daylight between them on speed.10” of extra fuselage and an extra 40lbs make for a speed difference that is smaller than the plane to plane variability of the same models.