Another FNG intro

[Paul_Havelka]

Well I finally bit the bullet and started my ppl training. It’s always been a dream of mine to fly. My oldest son, 17, decided he wants to be a professional pilot and bought and paid for his own ground school and started taking instruction. The swmbo went and bought me the ground school from Sporty’s and I blazed through it in about a week. Well yesterday I had my first official, logged, time at the controls and I’m hoping to have everything completed within the next few months. I reside in northeastern Oklahoma and our home airport would be GMJ. After having our old house in southern Louisiana on the market we finally have a contract and should be closing within the next couple weeks. That being said I have also received a promotion, +15k a year, and a payplan restructuring, an additional 10k per year, within the last 3 months so things are definitely on the good side.

 

Ever since I had an interest in GA i have been drawn to Mooneys. The swmbo has all but given the blessing for me to get an a/c and the first thing that came to mind was of course a Mooney. The sad part?  I’ve never even seen one in person. When the time comes, I definitely won’t be rushing this, my realistic acquisition budget would be right around $100k and based on my mission I am leaning towards the F models. For a family trip it would be myself, 230#, the wife, 140#, oldest son, 200#, and youngest son, currently 120#. These are conservative numbers to err on the side of caution. Trip range would average 200-700ish nm. We would travel from NE Oklahoma to south Texas, Virginia, Florida on the regular and of course we’d find excuses to go elsewhere. I would also be plenty ok with having to make a fuel stop as we do not want to make the swmbo angry. 

 

I would love to find someone in the NE Oklahoma, NW Arkansas, SW Missouri or SE Kansas area that wouldn’t mind giving me the nickel tour or even a day or few hours in the air. Fortunately, my work schedule means I have half the year off and when I’m home My schedule is pretty flexible

 

thanks in advance,

Paul

[Skates97]

Welcome aboard. I was in your shoes a few years ago. My wife, knowing I have always wanted to fly and with two grandkids on the way about 500nm from us, suggested I get my license and buy a plane to fly her to see them. I took my first flight I think two days later.

Had to look up "swmbo," very funny. (She Who Must Be Obeyed)

[MIm20c]

My sister lives in Fayetteville, Next time I’m headed that way I’ll send you a PM. Good luck on your training. 

[RLCarter]

welcome aboard Paul, and congrats on working toward getting your ppl, weather, maintenance, scheduling will all jump into play while working towards your goal so don't get too discouraged, just press forward and get it done. When you say S. TX, where about in S. TX?

[larrynimmo]

choice of planes is all about the missions....The M20J typically has a payload of about 900# including fuel.  From a realistic standpoint, the M20J is a three person plane...by the time you add people and a few bags...its time to fuel up....even 30 gallons of fuel is 180 pounds...as a student pilot you will learn that you are required to have at least 30 minutes of fuel reserve (day VFR)  My personal minimum is 60 minutes.

I will add that I regularly carry safety equipment in my plane...life preservers (not required, but if I go down on the water, I want to live)  spare oil...a tow bar...extra oil...heavy plug in jumper cables...and bottle water.

 

[Bob_Belville]

1 hour ago, Skates97 said:

Welcome aboard. I was in your shoes a few years ago. My wife, knowing I have always wanted to fly and with two grandkids on the way about 500nm from us, suggested I get my license and buy a plane to fly her to see them. I took my first flight I think two days later.

Had to look up "swmbo," very funny. (She Who Must Be Obeyed)

Rumpole of the Bailey's Hilda!

[Bob_Belville]

5 minutes ago, larrynimmo said:

choice of planes is all about the missions....The M20J typically has a payload of about 900# including fuel.  From a realistic standpoint, the M20J is a three person plane...by the time you add people and a few bags...its time to fuel up....even 30 gallons of fuel is 180 pounds...as a student pilot you will learn that you are required to have at least 30 minutes of fuel reserve (day VFR)  My personal minimum is 60 minutes.

I will add that I regularly carry safety equipment in my plane...life preservers (not required, but if I go down on the water, I want to live)  spare oil...a tow bar...extra oil...heavy plug in jumper cables...and bottle water.

 

Yeah, you're going to be useful load challenged. The F has a little better useful load than most - just because a plane has 4 seats does not mean you can carry 4 full sized people. But that's getting way ahead of your current stage - get the ticket and be learning about your choices in planes.

[skydvrboy]

If your typical mission is going to include the whole family, the F is the way to go.  Mine has 1067 useful and most are in that range.  That would let you take the whole family, baggage, pilot stuff, and enough fuel to make any of your destinations with a single fuel stop. 

Just make sure you do your W&B calculations, the Mooney will fly at gross.  I have no idea how it flies above that, but I'm sure there are a few around here you could tell you (offline, of course).  

[larrynimmo]

as an aspiring student pilot, I assume you have a foreflight subscription...if you do you can set up an airplane under the weight and balance section...

from what I recall all you need to do is to enter the tail number and the serial number of a plane...and then you can do "what if" calculations and it lets you know where you stand

[Skates97]

32 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Yeah, you're going to be useful load challenged. The F has a little better useful load than most - just because a plane has 4 seats does not mean you can carry 4 full sized people. But that's getting way ahead of your current stage - get the ticket and be learning about your choices in planes.

Very true, I would also add that while the OP thinks he will have four in the seats frequently, that is often not the case. If his oldest is 17, it's very possible that he is looking at 2-3 on most trips.

As you said though, work on ticket now and learn about different planes. As he moves along things will start to come together on the mission needs.

[Paul_Havelka]

1 hour ago, RLCarter said:

welcome aboard Paul, and congrats on working toward getting your ppl, weather, maintenance, scheduling will all jump into play while working towards your goal so don't get too discouraged, just press forward and get it done. When you say S. TX, where about in S. TX?

Victoria and Portland

[Paul_Havelka]

34 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

Very true, I would also add that while the OP thinks he will have four in the seats frequently, that is often not the case. If his oldest is 17, it's very possible that he is looking at 2-3 on most trips.

As you said though, work on ticket now and learn about different planes. As he moves along things will start to come together on the mission needs.

That is the most likely scenario. The oldest may be staying close to home while he progresses on towards his atp but more than likely it would end up being the Mrs, youngest and I for a few more years. I completely understand that 4 seats does not mean 4 people but with the efficiency of the mooneys, you can trade off fuel for pax and still have a solid range. And who knows, I could crawl into a Mooney and absolutely hate it.  Pretty sure that won’t be the case but crazier $h!t has happened. 

[BaldEagle]

$100k should get you into an IFR-equipped J with mid time engine and coupled autopilot (unless the market has changed dramatically in the year since I bought mine).  Also I would suggest you don’t restrict your search to the usual places (Controller, Trade-a-Plane, etc): I found mine the The Mooney Flyer, and MAPA Log has a few Mooney’s that appear to be competitively priced.  Useful Load on mine is 987 lb, by the way.

[carusoam]

@Creekrat have you found @40-0Flight and @NewMooneyOwner

And @Austintatious  you all have some similar threads going... you might learn a few things from each other...

Welcome to the Freshman Class of 2019! 

Best regards,

-a-

[Austintatious]

Good luck and congrats to OP for going for it!

As a professional pilot I have a few recommendations. 

1- put in at least 100 hours of flying before you put your family onboard.

2- stay WELL WELL clear of weather

3- Do not fly SE at night and if you just cant help yourself, at least dont do it over mountains ( but dont do it at all really)

[Hank]

16 minutes ago, Austintatious said:

Do not fly SE at night and if you just cant help yourself, at least dont do it over mountains ( but dont do it at all really)

You're right, that night stuff is so deadly that the Feds make student pilots do it! Let's not even discuss how risky our little Mooney lawnmowers are, those twin props with higher accident rates are so much better!!

All joking and frustration aside:  My first night XC after my PPL was four days after I finished my insurance dual in my Mooney, over the mountains from furthest WV to the inlaws in central NC. Study and train like you're gonna fly, and take it seriously. I reached 100 hours the next month. 

[Austintatious]

8 minutes ago, Hank said:

You're right, that night stuff is so deadly that the Feds make student pilots do it! Let's not even discuss how risky our little Mooney lawnmowers are, those twin props with higher accident rates are so much better!!

All joking and frustration aside:  My first night XC after my PPL was four days after I finished my insurance dual in my Mooney, over the mountains from furthest WV to the inlaws in central NC. Study and train like you're gonna fly, and take it seriously. I reached 100 hours the next month. 

well, as someone who would not be alive right now had it been night time when my engine failed, I do not recommend it.  It is not like engine failures in SE aircraft do not happen....  in fact they happen quite frequently.  In 4500 hours I have experienced 4 engine failures in flight, 2 in turbine aircraft, one resulting in an off field landing/crash.  In the 2 cases where there was a second engine, I was damned glad to have it.  Yea, a lot of multi pilots die because they cant control the aircraft on a single engine...that is usually the failing of the pilot, not the aircraft.

  Ones ability to get the aircraft on the ground safely deadstick at night is drastically reduced compared to daytime.  I don't care how good you are.

 

Edited February 28, 2019 by Austintatious

[Hank]

3 minutes ago, Austintatious said:

Ones ability to get the aircraft on the ground safely after a power plant failure at night is drastically reduced compared to daytime.  I don't care how good you are.

True dat. That's why I said to study hard and take it seriously. 

4 minutes ago, Austintatious said:

It is not like engine failures in SE aircraft do not happen....  in fact they happen quite frequently. 

I'm not sure about that, it goes against everything I've read and heard. Failures happen,  but frequently?

6 minutes ago, Austintatious said:

It is not like engine failures in SE aircraft do not happen....

Engine failures also happen in multi-engine planes, and the NTSB statistics are worse than for singles when a prop stops.

I'm sincerely glad that you came through an engine failure in good shape, and that it didn't sour you on flying. Here's to long flying careers for both of us!  

[MikeOH]

10 minutes ago, Austintatious said:

well, as someone who would not be alive right now had it been night time when my engine failed, I do not recommend it.  It is not like engine failures in SE aircraft do not happen....  in fact they happen quite frequently.  In 4500 hours I have experienced 4 engine failures in flight, 2 in turbine aircraft, one resulting in an off field landing/crash.  In the 2 cases where there was a second engine, I was damned glad to have it.  Yea, a lot of multi pilots die because they cant control the aircraft on a single engine...that is usually the failing of the pilot, not the aircraft.

  Ones ability to get the aircraft on the ground safely deadstick at night is drastically reduced compared to daytime.  I don't care how good you are.

 

Yeah, I'm with you 100%.  I got my PPL back in 1977 and still only have 5 hours of night logged.  Not to sound like Dave Barry, but the problem with NIGHT, is that it is DARK!

And, if I fly at night I'm exposed to the risk 100% of the time of having to dead stick into someplace I can't see if the engine quits.  I'll fly SE IFR but rarely do the clouds go all the way to the ground; I'll be able to at lease SEE where I can set down if I have.DAYTIME engine failure.

No criticism to those that fly at night.  We all are taking higher risks flying GA small aircraft than the general public.  But, I choose not to up that risk by flying at night; I just don't trust the ONE engine that much.

As you say, if the engine quits at night, no matter how good you are, the outcome is going to be based almost entirely on luck.

[Skates97]

43 minutes ago, Austintatious said:

Good luck and congrats to OP for going for it!

As a professional pilot I have a few recommendations. 

1- put in at least 100 hours of flying before you put your family onboard.

100 hours before putting your family on board? Maybe they should just up the requirement to get your PPL to 100 hours... 

Took my check ride with 46.7 hours and my next flight was a week later with my wife and son. A month later I rented a slow Cherokee for a cross country with my sons from SoCal to Phoenix just so I could take my dad on flight. I still consider myself a new pilot with just over 300 hours (most of which were with family in board) but I just don't understand why the suggestion that you shouldn't take someone until you have 100 hours. Am I a better pilot now? Sure. Was I a safe pilot after I took my check ride? I think so, apparently the DPE thought so too. 

[Austintatious]

4 minutes ago, Hank said:

True dat. That's why I said to study hard and take it seriously.

I'm not sure about that, it goes against everything I've read and heard. Failures happen,  but frequently?

Engine failures also happen in multi-engine planes, and the NTSB statistics are worse than for singles when a prop stops.

I'm sincerely glad that you came through an engine failure in good shape, and that it didn't sour you on flying. Here's to long flying careers for both of us!  

That's that thing, no amount of studying can prepare you to land deadstick at night with the guarantee of a good outcome.

Read up... I think most people would be surprised at how many engine failures do happen.  And that is just the ones that get reported.  I have met heaps of pilots that have experienced them in everything from motorgliders to G4's.

I agree, lots of sad stories in multi engine aircraft.  I used to teach the GV and G550 and some of the professional pilots I worked with couldnt handle engine failures in the sim... sad because it aint difficult.

I am too, and the scariest part was that we were originally intending to leave at night.  i convinced the lead passenger that it would be better to fly home with daylight and he agreed.  That conversation saved my life.

And agreed, Here's to long careers.

[Austintatious]

3 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

100 hours before putting your family on board? Maybe they should just up the requirement to get your PPL to 100 hours... 

Took my check ride with 46.7 hours and my next flight was a week later with my wife and son. A month later I rented a slow Cherokee for a cross country with my sons from SoCal to Phoenix just so I could take my dad on flight. I still consider myself a new pilot with just over 300 hours (most of which were with family in board) but I just don't understand why the suggestion that you shouldn't take someone until you have 100 hours. Am I a better pilot now? Sure. Was I a safe pilot after I took my check ride? I think so, apparently the DPE thought so too. 

what is smart and what is legal are too entirely different things.  We all start somewhere to be certain. 

The DPE made no judgement on if you were a safe pilot or not.  How could he in 1 short ride?  He determined that you had the required ( read minimal) amount of aeronautical knowledge ( through oral examination) and that you were able to perform the basic maneuvers within PTS tolerances, which TBH are in general very lenient.  

let me ask you another way to perhaps make my point.... would you let some pilot you didn't know who had just taken his check ride fly your family?  (I'm guessing NO)  Why not?  the DPE must have thought he was safe right?   So what would make yourself any different? 

 

[M016576]

22 minutes ago, Austintatious said:

That's that thing, no amount of studying can prepare you to land deadstick at night with the guarantee of a good outcome.

Read up... I think most people would be surprised at how many engine failures do happen.  And that is just the ones that get reported.  I have met heaps of pilots that have experienced them in everything from motorgliders to G4's.

I agree, lots of sad stories in multi engine aircraft.  I used to teach the GV and G550 and some of the professional pilots I worked with couldnt handle engine failures in the sim... sad because it aint difficult.

I am too, and the scariest part was that we were originally intending to leave at night.  i convinced the lead passenger that it would be better to fly home with daylight and he agreed.  That conversation saved my life.

And agreed, Here's to long careers.

The statistics on engine failures in twins may be skewed as well... 

I’d say you hear about far more engine failures in a single- because they have a higher likelihood of resulting in a mishap of some form (off airfield landing, ditch, etc).

think about all the twins that land on a single engine and the other engine failing never gets reported.  The only engine failure mishaps that do are when the pilot augurs it in... hence the skewed safety numbers.

Edited February 28, 2019 by M016576

[Skates97]

7 minutes ago, Austintatious said:

what is smart and what is legal are too entirely different things.  We all start somewhere to be certain. 

The DPE made no judgement on if you were a safe pilot or not.  How could he in 1 short ride?  He determined that you had the required ( read minimal) amount of aeronautical knowledge ( through oral examination) and that you were able to perform the basic maneuvers within PTS tolerances, which TBH are in general very lenient.  

let me ask you another way to perhaps make my point.... would you let some pilot you didn't know who had just taken his check ride fly your family?  (I'm guessing NO)  Why not?  the DPE must have thought he was safe right?   So what would make yourself any different? 

 

So DPE's are just turning loose unsafe pilots who have no business flying someone else for another 50 hours or so, really? 

I would fly with them, and depending on my experience, yes. 

I'm glad you're not in charge of determining hours required to be safe and fly my family, we would have missed out on a lot great flights and experiences. Maybe you didn't feel like you were a safe enough pilot to fly your family for 100 hours, good for you. 

[carusoam]

Gents,

There is a time to discuss the horrible outcomes that life has to offer...

And a time to celebrate the reality of piloting a single engine Mooney airplane...

Yes, we have a few pilots here that are still alive after experiencing an engine out... It wouldn’t have mattered what time of day it was... they knew what to do and discussed it here in detail...

Unfortunately, we also have a few pilots that aren’t here to discuss the outcomes of a daylight engine out situations...

Skip the negativity, focus on the things we can do... I have seen a few things happen here... you can look them up too... run a search...

 

Want to have an enjoyable evening?  One MSer actually wrote a book about flying after the fan gets quiet...

Don’t get me wrong... we learn plenty from the experience of other pilots around here.  MSers fly combat jets, helicopters, 747s, 737, and a whole bunch of other things... Some of us really know single engine maintenance too.

Go Find the thread related to the other planes MSers fly... then find lawn mower Jim... a pro pilot enjoying life around the airport... in Florida, if he’s home... 

Peace,

-a-