Lithium Jumper Battery

[DonMuncy]

Things are a little slow on MS today, so I hope I will be forgiven for going off topic. I have kept and maintained a jumper battery for some time. One of those that weighs about 20 pounds, with a light, compressor and cables to jump a dead battery. Primarily for my tenant next door, who manages to have her battery die on a frequent basis. But mine died, and fails to take a charge. When looking for a replacement, I find that a bunch of folks sell a very light, lithium battery that is supposed to perform the same function, for very close to the same price. It seems to me to be hard to get enough amperage out of a few ounces of battery to equal a lead acid, 20 pound one. Has anyone actually used one of the lithium variety under roughly the same conditions as the old ones, that can give me opinions of how well they perform.

[McMooney]

not surprising, lithium out performs lead-acid in almost all ways.  well except for that melting issue.  

Only thing, you need a special lithium charger for them.

wish I could put one in the plane, could prob get car capacity with the same size battery.

 

[DonMuncy]

As I understand it, the units come with a charger to maintain it. I understand that lithium can out perform lead acid, and in theory, they should do well. But the ones I have seen pictures of have rather small gauge cables, and I wonder if they will really do the job the big ones do. Also the ones I have seen advertised have very short cables, presumably because you can set the unit right up on, or next to, the battery being jumped. 

[Hector]

I have used those and keep one in my truck. If it can jump start a Ford Expedition I would think it would work on a Mooney. The battery in my truck went dead and for a couple of days until I had time to replace the battery I used the small lithium battery jumper to start the truck. It came with a cigarette lighter charger so I would keep it topped off and then connect it directly to the battery for a jump start.


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[DonMuncy]

4 minutes ago, Hector said:

I have used those and keep one in my truck. If it can jump start a Ford Expedition I would think it would work on a Mooney. The battery in my truck went dead and for a couple of days until I had time to replace the battery I used the small lithium battery jumper to start the truck. It came with a cigarette lighter charger so I would keep it topped off and then connect it directly to the battery for a jump start.


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Hector, have you ever used the old heavy ones enough to believe you get the same oomph out of the lithium. Do you know of any downside, other than the fear of fire. If a couple of other guys chime in with the same experience as you, I am going for it.

 

[Hank]

Don, I have a friend with experience using the little lithium jumpers for dead batteries. He uses his truck infrequently and jumps it often with the little pack. Ain't technology great?

[Marauder]

Don - which ones are you looking at? Looking on Amazon there appear to be dozens of makers.


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[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, DonMuncy said:

Things are a little slow on MS today, so I hope I will be forgiven for going off topic. I have kept and maintained a jumper battery for some time. One of those that weighs about 20 pounds, with a light, compressor and cables to jump a dead battery. Primarily for my tenant next door, who manages to have her battery die on a frequent basis. But mine died, and fails to take a charge. When looking for a replacement, I find that a bunch of folks sell a very light, lithium battery that is supposed to perform the same function, for very close to the same price. It seems to me to be hard to get enough amperage out of a few ounces of battery to equal a lead acid, 20 pound one. Has anyone actually used one of the lithium variety under roughly the same conditions as the old ones, that can give me opinions of how well they perform.

If you want a lithium battery that is powerful enough to crank your motor, Costco sells a nice one for about $50.  That is supposed to have enough amps to start a car motor, but I'm guessing our starter motors use up significantly more amps.  I've used it on my 4 cylinder car, and it works adequately.  Aside from that, though, lithium batteries are a little annoying--if you keep them fully charged, they actually degrade faster, so you shouldn't keep them plugged in indefinitely.  If you keep them at half charge, they can be stored (almost) indefinitely, but then when you suddenly need it...  I ended up returning it and getting one of those sealed lead-acid battery/jumper/compressor combo units that I can just keep plugged into the wall in my garage, because I use the compressor pretty frequently to top off my tires

I'm assuming you're talking about cars--aircraft shouldn't be flown with a completely dead battery, because it's a safety of flight issue.  

[DonMuncy]

13 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Don - which ones are you looking at? Looking on Amazon there appear to be dozens of makers.


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It is primarily for automobile use.

I haven't got past the "am I going to do it" stage yet. So I haven't really shopped brands. I suppose it will be like most any battery consideration. That is, amp hours vs dollars. I looked today at Harbor Freight (Viking brand, I think) I had not considered Costco, but I am usually impressed with their value for bucks. I'm still taking suggestions.

[carusoam]

I use the Costco variety for about four cars for all the people that live in my house... jump, compressor, and light...

Works well when the hurricanes go by for charging cell phones and iPads too...

When it comes to Li and fires and airplanes... make sure, if you intend to carry it in the plane... that it can be used at various altitudes... or be vented properly... something that indicates that it can be used in a plane...

Their biggest challenges... the raw materials are much more flammable than battery acid... when it burns, it has a ton of energy to give off.  If it shorts internally, like batteries have a tendency to do.... it gets hot, hot enough to ignite the raw materials...

For ground use...they are very light weight, and work surprisingly well for their size.  Because, we are familiar with the other batteries that were designed without modern technology...

Surpised we haven’t seen more migration towards Lithium ion batteries in the tail... There is a lot of UL to be gained...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[Dream to fly]

Things are a little slow on MS today, so I hope I will be forgiven for going off topic. I have kept and maintained a jumper battery for some time. One of those that weighs about 20 pounds, with a light, compressor and cables to jump a dead battery. Primarily for my tenant next door, who manages to have her battery die on a frequent basis. But mine died, and fails to take a charge. When looking for a replacement, I find that a bunch of folks sell a very light, lithium battery that is supposed to perform the same function, for very close to the same price. It seems to me to be hard to get enough amperage out of a few ounces of battery to equal a lead acid, 20 pound one. Has anyone actually used one of the lithium variety under roughly the same conditions as the old ones, that can give me opinions of how well they perform.

I purchased one from my interstate battery dealer for about 100. It weighs about 4 lbs. It will jump start a diesel pickup at 35 degrees ambient and dead batteries. It doesn't come with a compressor but for jump starting or backup power you can't beat it. I use mine for work and to power my portable equipment in the plane.

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[Hector]

Hector, have you ever used the old heavy ones enough to believe you get the same oomph out of the lithium. Do you know of any downside, other than the fear of fire. If a couple of other guys chime in with the same experience as you, I am going for it.
 

Yes I have. I actually have one of the old heavy battery/compressor combo that I purchased from Sam’s club a while back. I don’t think they are 100 percent comparable. I noticed the lithium batteries lost a lot of capacity after using it just twice to start my truck without recharging. Im not sure it would have started the truck a third time. The big lead battery probably would not have had a problem. As long as you keep the lithium battery topped off it should be fine. Also, in terms of required amperage, I don’t know how the starter in my lycoming compares to turning a 5.4 litter V8 in my truck.




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[LANCECASPER]

12 hours ago, DonMuncy said:

It is primarily for automobile use.

I haven't got past the "am I going to do it" stage yet. So I haven't really shopped brands. I suppose it will be like most any battery consideration. That is, amp hours vs dollars. I looked today at Harbor Freight (Viking brand, I think) I had not considered Costco, but I am usually impressed with their value for bucks. I'm still taking suggestions.

I had a cheap one ($30?) that started smoking when I jumped a car and it was beyond deformed. I'm glad it didn't start on fire. Since then I've also bought the $50 one on sale from Costco and it is much better.

[aviatoreb]

I don't think cheap Lithium batteries are ready for aircraft use.  They are a fire hazard.  Those "hover boards" have been banned from our campus dorms (and others) because one just sitting in a dorm room spontaneously caught fire and burned down the dorm - no one injured luckily.  Electric scooters, electric folding bikes, rc toys, lipo charger kits, not in my airplane.  Actually I am suspicious of my iPad and iPhone, but what can I do?  At least they are highly mainstream and likely to burn up on someone else first to cause a warning to the public - like those Galaxy 7 phones that were burning and banned on domestic flights.

[DonMuncy]

Thanks for all the help. I'm going to Costco today.

[mike_elliott]

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B074XFLJS5/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[LANCECASPER]

This is the one Costco had on sale a few months ago. However I keep it in the car, not the airplane.



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[Yetti]

Look at the size of the plugs on that then look at the size of the wires that go to the starter on a Mooney.  Lith Ion batteries tend to go south when high charge rates,  High discharge rates, and shorting.   Charging should always be done without flammable materials around the battery and supervised.

[whiskytango]

3 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

I don't think cheap Lithium batteries are ready for aircraft use.  They are a fire hazard.  Those "hover boards" have been banned from our campus dorms (and others) because one just sitting in a dorm room spontaneously caught fire and burned down the dorm - no one injured luckily.  Electric scooters, electric folding bikes, rc toys, lipo charger kits, not in my airplane.  Actually I am suspicious of my iPad and iPhone, but what can I do?  At least they are highly mainstream and likely to burn up on someone else first to cause a warning to the public - like those Galaxy 7 phones that were burning and banned on domestic flights.

Agree completely.  I recently saw a multimillion dollar yacht destroyed by fire.  It is suspected that LI batteries in a pack that powered an electric bicycle the owner kept on board caused the fire.  Fortunately everyone got off in time, and there were no injuries.  

[Jerry 5TJ]

There are lithium batteries approved for aircraft use.  The Cessna Caravan fleet is accepting them fairly rapidly.  Many types available for experimental airplanes too.  

Different chemistry and different battery management systems compared to those in cheap consumer products.   

True Blue

[FloridaMan]

I purchased an EarthX LiFePO4 battery. Lower capacity, much lower risk of thermal runaway and spontaneous combustion. I considered the risk of an unbranded Li-Ion or LiPo pack to carry in an aircraft across pressure ranges and turbulence to be risky.