Considering purchasing a Mooney - transitioning from a C182

[SantosDumont]

Mooney was my first airplane after I got my PPL in a 172.  Landing a Mooney is like shaving with a straight edge razor... with good technique it is as smooth as a baby’s bottom... with poor technique it gets ugly and bloody real fast. 

[Niko182]

3 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

No parking brake and seat belts in the 172?

That gets added to the checklist the first time they get forgotten. Hopefully she doesn't forget both at the same time. the yoke put together with someones forehead usually doesn't have the greatest outcome.

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

Why are you closing cowl flaps during GUMPS or prior to landing? Does your POH say to do that? Cowl flaps should be open at all time during ground ops. There is no utility in closing them in the pattern only to open them again after touchdown.

Hah, you're right!  It actually does not, but it's on the same page under "Descent" in my POH, so when I made up my plastic laminated checklists, I accidentally included it in the landing list.  By now, it's part of my normal flow (going left to right, then down from the throttle), so I guess I have to decide whether to remove it now.

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

No parking brake and seat belts in the 172?

I did point that to my friend   I always thought the parking brake check made terribly good sense, since having a passenger accidentally pulling it would make for a pretty exciting landing...

[xcrmckenna]

Why are you closing cowl flaps during GUMPS or prior to landing? Does your POH say to do that? Cowl flaps should be open at all time during ground ops. There is no utility in closing them in the pattern only to open them again after touchdown.

I’m 70% sure my poh says to close the cowl flaps while landing and 100% sure my check list says close the flaps in the landing section. I’m guessing it’s to help keep heat into the engine at low power? After I get at cruise alt I close them and don’t see any cooling reason or need to open them till I’m on the ground or doing a go around.


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[carusoam]

7 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

I did point that to my friend   I always thought the parking brake check made terribly good sense, since having a passenger accidentally pulling it would make for a pretty exciting landing...

Have you seen @Skates97‘s experience regarding his recent stuck parking brake?

Best regards,

-a-

[DXB]

Answers below are from a middle-aged 650 hour pilot with an IR, mediocre flying ability, and advancing male pattern baldness.  I got my PPL 4.5 years ago in Pipers mostly (only have 3 hours total in Cessnas), and then have flown an M20C almost exclusively since that time. I bet my 'lil 180 HP C will outrun your 182 any day 

Is a Mooney to much airplane for me?  NO - with appropriate transition training - I'm really just talking about 5-10 hours in one of the basic ones - people who fly long bodies and/or turbos might say the transition is longer.  

How tricky are they to land?   Not tricky at all, just different.  Need a bit more respect for speed.  The changes in your habits will come quickly if you are willing to listen to an experienced Mooney instructor.    

How hard will it be to transition to?  Not very - you will love it. Give 5-10 hours of close attention to dual instruction initially (what your insurance will require anyway), then maybe tune up with an instructor later after flying 10 hours on your own.

How reliable are they?  No more or less reliable than your 182 overall, but way more fun to fly (think sports car vs. truck).  If you want the simplest, most reliable landing gear in existence, consider one of the vintage J bar models.

How safe are they?  The steel roll cage, push rod links to flight surfaces, and nearly indestructible wing spar are nice enhancements over your 182, but overall probably not that different from your 182 in terms of safety.

How expensive to insure and maintain?  If you can afford to insure, maintain, and operate a182, you can probably afford anything up to a J model Mooney.  Keep in mind you'll save some $ on fuel.  People who fly the turbos and long bodies will have to comment for themselves.

What do I need to know I have not even asked yet?  Focus on a subset of Mooney models in your budget and ask folks here if they are right for your mission.  If you buy a good example of the right model, you will have no regrets.

Who would you get involved for a prebuy inspection ?    Someone who really understands the Mooney airframe from a corrosion, flight surface rigging, and landing gear  perspective - the rest of the inspection is standard.  There are good MSCs, bad MSCs, and some good A&Ps outside MSCs who know these planes well.  The folks on this site will direct you to the right person in your region.   

[carusoam]

Interesting thing about insurance costs...

1) First year costs more than any other...

2) 100 hours of experience in the airplane lowers the insurance cost...

3) IR also lowers the insurance cost...

4) MAPA and Transition Training lower the insurance costs...

5) The costs to insure a short body vs. a long body are quite similar... (it’s the stuff on the seats that is expensive, and they don’t change going for short to long... )

6) The real bummer... you can get a lot of experience and training in the first month or two once you have the plane... but the insurance rate is set up front for the year...

7) if there is a way to get training and experience before you get the plane... that could be helpful...

8) training in somebody else’s plane can be equally expensive...

PP thoughts only, Parker is MS’ resident insurance go to guy and knowledge center...

Best regards,

-a-

[whiskytango]

1. I owned a TR182 (turbo normalized retractable C182) and found that routinely getting good landings out of my Mooney was much more likely than in the TR182.

2. I always tell anyone who has never been in a Mooney that there in no way to gracefully get into or out of a Mooney (the only exception to this is in the movie Fail-Safe; General Black gets into the pilot's seat of a short-body Mooney with no effort at all!).

[Lance Link]

I made the move after a vast 300 hours or so in dead-simple planes, and now have less than 40 hours in the Mooney.  Haven't crashed yet.

First, get Don Kaye's landing video.  I found the key to landing is keeping the descent attitude solid to 5 - 7' AGL as Don says, then flare.  Feels low, but seems to be the magic trick for me anyway.  

I tried eight planes that I liked on paper, but had to conclude I did not like them in real life.  Had resisted Mooneys for what turned out to be bogus reasons, tried them, and it was "hot damn".  Like going from a Chevy Malibu to a 911.  

 

[ShuRugal]

On 1/18/2019 at 11:10 AM, David Klasing said:

Awesome input!!!  came to the right place... 

 

I weigh 250 pounds and I'm 5 foot 9 inches tall - will I fit?      If I have 500 pounds of passengers in the front seats...   my brother flies with me alot...  will a 252 still be within weight and balance?     What if I put bro all the way back on the rails? 

You and your brother would put my C model forward of CG limits if you took more than 18 gallons of fuel with you.  With 300 lbs of rear passenger, you could carry 27 gallons and be right at MTOW and forward CG.  To load you and your brother with 50 gallons would require 120 lbs of ballast in the luggage (max for that station), 10 lbs on the hat rack (max), and 46 lbs on the back seat.  This is all assuming your brother spends the trip with his seat pushed back to rear of travel.

Granted, my C model is a little on the nose-heavy side (owing to having no equipment on the radio tray in the tail), but I would not recommend a Mooney, certainly not a short body, to anyone over 200 lbs, especially if you have friends/family in the same weight category who regularly fly with you.  Trying to wrestle a bunch of people that size in and out of a single door will not be fun, the seating space is tight, and low to the floor, which makes getting out a concern.

 

I have a 300 lb co-worker who asked me to take him for a ride, and I had to decline for safety reasons:  If he's in the front seat, his body will interfere with the controls (including the J-bar), and if he is incapacitated in an emergency, I won't be able to get past him out the door.  In the rear seat, if the plane catches fire, he's going to burn before he can get out.

It might be feasible in the new dual-door body, but these planes were just not designed for pilots and passengers of that size :-/

[MrRodgers]

Everything said above regarding transition, useful loan and cabin comfort holds true.  I purchased my 67 Mooney M20F two months prior to getting my PPL certificate. 

My insurance first year was in the $2400.00 range because I did not have a complex endorsement or PPL yet. I have since finished my transition training and had my PPL since Feb 2018.  My insurance this year is in the $1,600.00 range.  I LOVE MY PLANE.  Fly the numbers and you can just about put it down anywhere you want.  I am 6'3 and 230 Lbs. and I can stretch out fully in cruise without issues.  Since you are local (I'm in Santa Monica) I suggest getting with Don Kaye or Mike Jesch for your transition training. You can find their contact info online at www.TheMooneyFlyer.com   Hope you join us as a Mooniac and if you do please join the West Coast Mooney Clun here at MooneySpace.   

Good Luck #MooneyZoom

[jaylw314]

13 hours ago, xcrmckenna said:

I’m 70% sure my poh says to close the cowl flaps while landing and 100% sure my check list says close the flaps in the landing section. I’m guessing it’s to help keep heat into the engine at low power? After I get at cruise alt I close them and don’t see any cooling reason or need to open them till I’m on the ground or doing a go around.


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That's what I thought, and I know there are some printed checklists out there that says close the flaps, but when I double-checked the POH, closing the cowl flaps is actually in the "descent" checklist right before the "approach for landing" checklist.

I usually don't bother with opening the cowl flaps until more than 700' AGL on go-arounds, the motor doesn't actually heat up much in those first 30 seconds, and I'm usually busy with other stuff (like not hitting things)...

[Shadrach]

15 hours ago, xcrmckenna said:

I’m 70% sure my poh says to close the cowl flaps while landing and 100% sure my check list says close the flaps in the landing section. I’m guessing it’s to help keep heat into the engine at low power? After I get at cruise alt I close them and don’t see any cooling reason or need to open them till I’m on the ground or doing a go around.


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I open mine when the gear comes down. I close them when I level for cruise and have yet to need them after. The guys at APS suggest that hot spots can developer with them closed during ground ops.

Edited January 19, 2019 by Shadrach

[Capt Brad]

17 hours ago, ShuRugal said:

You and your brother would put my C model forward of CG limits if you took more than 18 gallons of fuel with you.  With 300 lbs of rear passenger, you could carry 27 gallons and be right at MTOW and forward CG.  To load you and your brother with 50 gallons would require 120 lbs of ballast in the luggage (max for that station), 10 lbs on the hat rack (max), and 46 lbs on the back seat.  This is all assuming your brother spends the trip with his seat pushed back to rear of travel.

Granted, my C model is a little on the nose-heavy side (owing to having no equipment on the radio tray in the tail), but I would not recommend a Mooney, certainly not a short body, to anyone over 200 lbs, especially if you have friends/family in the same weight category who regularly fly with you.  Trying to wrestle a bunch of people that size in and out of a single door will not be fun, the seating space is tight, and low to the floor, which makes getting out a concern.

 

I have a 300 lb co-worker who asked me to take him for a ride, and I had to decline for safety reasons:  If he's in the front seat, his body will interfere with the controls (including the J-bar), and if he is incapacitated in an emergency, I won't be able to get past him out the door.  In the rear seat, if the plane catches fire, he's going to burn before he can get out.

It might be feasible in the new dual-door body, but these planes were just not designed for pilots and passengers of that size :-/

On my '68 C model, I can handle 500 lbs. in the front seats and 50 gals of fuel.  That puts it right at the forward limits (checked on Fltplan.com weight and balance as well as my own paperwork), and it still leaves it under GTOW by 155 lbs. As the fuel burns off, the CG moves forward, but so does the limits. I've had well over 400 lbs. in the front seats along with full fuel and some cargo, and she handled quite well. I'm over 220 lbs. and so is a friend I've taken flying, and we had no trouble fitting.

As for room, the Mooneys have more shoulder room than most singles in their class. Getting in and out is still a problem though, and would cause a lot of excitement in an emergency. 

The hardest thing for me is reaching the fuel selector, but I have an extension for that now that makes it easy.

[ShuRugal]

On my '68 C model, I can handle 500 lbs. in the front seats and 50 gals of fuel.  That puts it right at the forward limits (checked on Fltplan.com weight and balance as well as my own paperwork), and it still leaves it under GTOW by 155 lbs. As the fuel burns off, the CG moves forward, but so does the limits. I've had well over 400 lbs. in the front seats along with full fuel and some cargo, and she handled quite well. I'm over 220 lbs. and so is a friend I've taken flying, and we had no trouble fitting.
As for room, the Mooneys have more shoulder room than most singles in their class. Getting in and out is still a problem though, and would cause a lot of excitement in an emergency. 
The hardest thing for me is reaching the fuel selector, but I have an extension for that now that makes it easy.

What's your empty moment arm look like? Do you have anything mounted in the back? The most I can put in the front seats with full tanks and nothing in the back is about 350 lbs of the tanks are full.

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[Capt Brad]

Empty weight is 1605, and the ARM is 45.71.  Only the ELT is mounted in the back as far as I know of, but I've never looked back there.

Adding fuel moves the CG back (according to FltPlan.com W&B and my own spreadsheet)

[ShuRugal]

Empty weight is 1605, and the ARM is 45.71.  Only the ELT is mounted in the back as far as I know of, but I've never looked back there.
Adding fuel moves the CG back (according to FltPlan.com W&B and my own spreadsheet)

Yeah, that works make a difference. My empty weight is 1581, but my arm is 43.8, according to the paperwork.

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[gsxrpilot]

Wow, I was off line for a full day and a lot of interesting information snuck into this thread.

W&B - The Useful Load and W&B should be checked before buying any small airplane and especially older airplanes. This should be a given, but I guess not everyone thinks about it. Over the course of 50 or 60 years things get added, removed, and moved around. So the W&B can be, and probably is, different for every M20C in the fleet. 

Having said that, I love it when little guys are trying to say whether us big guys will fit or not. I'm 5'10/250 and was very comfortable in the front seat of my M20C as well as the front seats of my M20K. I've also ridden in the back seat. Both are fine, but the M20K back seat is very comfortable. I've flown many times in both the C and the K with approximately 500 lbs in the front seats and full tanks. I'm within the CG range and the airplane behaves normally. A lot of the difficulty of getting in and out of the plane is to do so without touching or pulling on the door. In the event of an emergency, I'm not concerned about bending the hinge on the front door and would exit pretty quickly.

Cowl Flaps - Mine are closed in cruise, (unless up in the flight levels where extra cooling is required), closed on the descent, and closed at all times on the ground (until opened for takeoff). With a good engine monitor, I can see that I don't have any CHT's over about 320 on the ground with the cowl flaps closed. I also like having the plane parked with the cowl flaps closed. There is less of an opening for critters to climb into the engine and most importantly, the turn radius markings on my nose gear are fully visible only when the cowl flaps are closed.

Did I miss anything else 

[ShuRugal]

Having said that, I love it when little guys are trying to say whether us big guys will fit or not. I'm 5'10/250 and was very comfortable in the front seat of my M20C as well as the front seats of my M20K.

I guess the body composition of the pilots/passengers is going to matter as much as weight in terms of fitting. I had a 6'0" 220 lb friend up with me, and I had to make him empty his pockets to be able to operate the J-bar, and even then my knuckles carved a divot in his thigh.

Someone who had more weight in muscle could still fit laterally, though. I'm just used to being around desk workers, I guess. My baseline experience of "Under 6 feet, over 200 lbs". The 300lb coworker I mentioned previously would overhang onto the pilot seat, which is obviously a no-go (and yes, we measured that).

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[gsxrpilot]

12 minutes ago, ShuRugal said:

I guess the body composition of the pilots/passengers is going to matter as much as weight in terms of fitting. I had a 6'0" 220 lb friend up with me, and I had to make him empty his pockets to be able to operate the J-bar, and even then my knuckles carved a divot in his thigh.

Someone who had more weight in muscle could still fit laterally, though. I'm just used to being around desk workers, I guess. My baseline experience of "Under 6 feet, over 200 lbs". The 300lb coworker I mentioned previously would overhang onto the pilot seat, which is obviously a no-go (and yes, we measured that).

 

You make a good point about body composition. When I flew with guys my size in my C, I'd just let them know that for take-off, they had to shift their butt towards the door to clear the path for the JBar. But then once the gear is retracted, they could settle in more comfortably. 

[Hank]

I've never had problems with 450-500 lb in the front seats and full fuel in my C. But I don't have my W&B spreadsheet on the tablet yet . . . . Empty is 1670, including 3-blade Hartzell and some stuff on the avionics rack besides just the ELT. 

[bill98]

11 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Wow, I was off line for a full day and a lot of interesting information snuck into this thread.

W&B - The Useful Load and W&B should be checked before buying any small airplane and especially older airplanes. This should be a given, but I guess not everyone thinks about it. Over the course of 50 or 60 years things get added, removed, and moved around. So the W&B can be, and probably is, different for every M20C in the fleet. 

Having said that, I love it when little guys are trying to say whether us big guys will fit or not. I'm 5'10/250 and was very comfortable in the front seat of my M20C as well as the front seats of my M20K. I've also ridden in the back seat. Both are fine, but the M20K back seat is very comfortable. I've flown many times in both the C and the K with approximately 500 lbs in the front seats and full tanks. I'm within the CG range and the airplane behaves normally. A lot of the difficulty of getting in and out of the plane is to do so without touching or pulling on the door. In the event of an emergency, I'm not concerned about bending the hinge on the front door and would exit pretty quickly.

Cowl Flaps - Mine are closed in cruise, (unless up in the flight levels where extra cooling is required), closed on the descent, and closed at all times on the ground (until opened for takeoff). With a good engine monitor, I can see that I don't have any CHT's over about 320 on the ground with the cowl flaps closed. I also like having the plane parked with the cowl flaps closed. There is less of an opening for critters to climb into the engine and most importantly, the turn radius markings on my nose gear are fully visible only when the cowl flaps are closed.

Did I miss anything else 

I thought you were 180LB’s!

[bill98]

I think it was this thread but I do not know who said that they dislike smashing their knuckles when operating the J Bar. 

 

This is what I use on take off and landing the keep my hands blood free:

[steingar]

The  weight and balance section in my POH ('62 M20c) tells you not to put the big guys in the back.  Seriously, that's it.  I make Hobbits look pretty tall in comparison, so I don't know what its like with two regular sized people in the front, but I doubt it's all that bad. I've had some pretty big right seat passengers and never noticed ought different with the airplane.

I open the cowl flaps on downwind to prepare for the go-around.  You're always ready for the go-around, right?  Every landing is a go-around until proven otherwise, right?