500 Hour past TBO Rocket gets OH

[Yooper Rocketman]

Well, as luck would have it, while at the air show in Oshkosh I met a very serious buyer for my Rocket.  He stopped by while I was repainting my prop on the Lancair (on the flight line, at the show......a whole other story).  Anyway, he was SO interested he offered to come up to IMT while I was doing my annual in August and do a pre-buy inspection on it while it was opened up.  He's a member of this forum but rare contributor from what I've gathered.  Anyway, the day before his flight I advise him we found a couple cylinders low on compression but apparently, between several conversations to this point, and a good review of my logbooks by his IA, he was still interested in the plane.  

I had given him a "ball park" number (a high to low I would likely be asking for the plane) based on a run out engine.  After his review/inspection of the plane, logs, and long conversations with my FBO, he was still interested. A couple days after he left, once the cylinders were off, we discovered the cam had some early stages of wear on one of the lobes; wearing off the hardness on the edge which, based on our local Mooney/ Continental guru John Miller, means I likely had no more than another 100 hours of life.  I talked with my prospective buyer and indicated I really didn't see any sense in investing serious money into the engine at this point without doing an OH.  He agreed and said he expected no more than another 100 hours after buying it, so as long as he had say in the OH decisions, he was still interested.  In fact, the delay was giving him more time to get things settled on his end for the purchase.

We got several quotes from the more "known" engine builders but the frustration was none of them were interested in using some of the very new components recently replaced on the plane, like a brand new (not OH'ed) turbo, new alternator (case was cracked, so I bought new outright), and very low time mags.  In addition, my engine was a first run since new, so the case was in great shape and all but one cylinder were within specs for OH (and Jewell had good spares to replace that one).  So......after reading all the positive comments on Jewell, and the estimate coming back WAY under the big boys, both my prospective buyer and I agreed Jewell looked like the best option.

I ran the engine down there (800 mile drive) immediately after it was pulled.  The prop was sent out for OH as well.  Now waiting for the call it's done so I can drive back down and pick it up.

Tom

[gsxrpilot]

Looking forward to the Pirep on Jewell. They are at the top of my list to do the engine in my 252. I'm at 1500 hours and hoping to go another year or two.

[Cody Stallings]

Following!!

Jewell is in my area an at the top of my list aswell.

[81X]

14 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Looking forward to the Pirep on Jewell. They are at the top of my list to do the engine in my 252. I'm at 1500 hours and hoping to go another year or two.

Same here. It would be nice to have a good overhaul shop that has somewhat sane pricing and it looks like Jewell might fit that bill.  

[KLRDMD]

10 hours ago, 81X said:

Same here. It would be nice to have a good overhaul shop that has somewhat sane pricing and it looks like Jewell might fit that bill.  

My local shop has used them for years and have nothing but good things to say about Jewell.

[Eraaen]

Hmmmm, I've been trying to hide money to get prepared for what I figured was going to be closer to $40-50k. If I didn't replace the new, turbo, alt, Mags, Fuel Pump, Fuel Controller, etc etc.  I am curious to see if they can keep it under $20k on the motor only.  Looks to be estimating around $17.5 on their page.  Any ideas on shipping?  I'm closer, but hate the idea of 12 hour round trips/twice. 

[LANCECASPER]

8 hours ago, Eraaen said:

Hmmmm, I've been trying to hide money to get prepared for what I figured was going to be closer to $40-50k. If I didn't replace the new, turbo, alt, Mags, Fuel Pump, Fuel Controller, etc etc.  I am curious to see if they can keep it under $20k on the motor only.  Looks to be estimating around $17.5 on their page.  Any ideas on shipping?  I'm closer, but hate the idea of 12 hour round trips/twice. 

Fly it down and let them do the removal and re-install.  Take Greyhound back . . lol

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

Fly it down and let them do the removal and re-install.  Take Greyhound back . . lol

..with all that money he's saving - first class baby.

No wait... NetJets.

[LANCECASPER]

2 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Fly it down and let them do the removal and re-install.  Take Greyhound back . . lol

Sadly I don't think Greyhound even goes to Kennett MO. Someone on here hitch hiked to Memphis after dropping off his airplane.

 

[Yooper Rocketman]

11 hours ago, Eraaen said:

Hmmmm, I've been trying to hide money to get prepared for what I figured was going to be closer to $40-50k. If I didn't replace the new, turbo, alt, Mags, Fuel Pump, Fuel Controller, etc etc.  I am curious to see if they can keep it under $20k on the motor only.  Looks to be estimating around $17.5 on their page.  Any ideas on shipping?  I'm closer, but hate the idea of 12 hour round trips/twice. 

That would beat the heck out of my drive.  I would rather put in the windshield time to ensure it gets there sans any damage than ship it, spending more money to save a little of my personal time and possibly getting some damage far exceeding what I would have saved in time.

Tom

[Yooper Rocketman]

Well, they got the engine back, installed and test ran it the last two days.  They cannot get the manifold pressure above 34" and the RPM above 2500.  They adjusted something to increase manifold pressure....to the max, and still no fix.

Just wondering if anyone with a Rocket or 400 series Cessna's has an idea.  I really need to get this thing flying and sold by the end of the year or it's going to cost me a bundle in depreciation recap.

Tom

 

[LANCECASPER]

32 minutes ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

Well, they got the engine back, installed and test ran it the last two days.  They cannot get the manifold pressure above 34" and the RPM above 2500.  They adjusted something to increase manifold pressure....to the max, and still no fix.

Just wondering if anyone with a Rocket or 400 series Cessna's has an idea.  I really need to get this thing flying and sold by the end of the year or it's going to cost me a bundle in depreciation recap.

Tom

 

Was the prop governor overhauled according to the Rocket STC?

[Yooper Rocketman]

Wasn’t touched. Same as when engine removed.   Planned to do that later. 

[Awful_Charlie]

Is it being run with a test prop/club, or with the flight prop? If the latter, what static RPM is it supposed to make? Most aircraft with a CS prop have a max static RPM that is lower than the max RPM in flight.

As the prop has been out for overhaul, it is possible the low pitch stop has been incorrectly set and it might need a tweak to allow it a little finer which will then increase the RPM

[Geoff]

I have put about 30 hours on a Jewell overhauled TSIO 360 and have been very pleased so far. Maxwell did the R&R. 

[AlexLev]

On 9/24/2018 at 8:29 PM, LANCECASPER said:

Sadly I don't think Greyhound even goes to Kennett MO. Someone on here hitch hiked to Memphis after dropping off his airplane.

 

That was me. It was definitely an adventure getting to Memphis via hitchhike. Luckily, on the way back to pick the plane up, Sam was kind enough to come and pick me up in my own plane near Memphis.

Have about 150 hours on the Jewell overhaul so far. All is well so far.

Hope you get the MP issue worked out soon.

Edited November 15, 2018 by AlexLev

[carusoam]

Tom,

+1 Start with the prop, and the governor...

 

Not sure what would connect MP to RPM... so let’s take them separately at first...

 

It shouldn’t take much power to turn full rpm. That is a big hint of something not working right... is the prop going fully flat? Best for achieving the highest rpm...

The Rocket has a unique prop set-up that allows full feathering...  is there something funny going on there?

 

 

Then check the FF, is it running out of fuel for some reason?  Fuel set-up and upper deck pressure control for the turbo is pretty complex... are the exhaust controller / by-pass valves fully mouse milked and operational?

Check for turbo sound, is the turbo winding up and down properly?

I have pretty limited knowledge of this kind of stuff, so I am quick to ask an expert...

For prop systems @Cody Stallings has supplied a ton of detail and pics...

For turbo engine knowledge @M20Doc has been known to post a lot of details and pics...

I am betting these guys may have seen this before....  

Best regards,

-a-

[Guest]

13 hours ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

Well, they got the engine back, installed and test ran it the last two days.  They cannot get the manifold pressure above 34" and the RPM above 2500.  They adjusted something to increase manifold pressure....to the max, and still no fix.

Just wondering if anyone with a Rocket or 400 series Cessna's has an idea.  I really need to get this thing flying and sold by the end of the year or it's going to cost me a bundle in depreciation recap.

Tom

 

Tom,

If the boost controller adjustment had little effect, have them cap the outlet fitting from the wastegate. Oil pressure from the engine will close the wastegate fully.  Run the engine again to see if boost will come up, remember that it will be un regulated and over boost is possible if not they’re not careful.  

This should prove that the engine and prop are OK.

Clarence

[Yooper Rocketman]

12 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Tom,

If the boost controller adjustment had little effect, have them cap the outlet fitting from the wastegate. Oil pressure from the engine will close the wastegate fully.  Run the engine again to see if boost will come up, remember that it will be un regulated and over boost is possible if not they’re not careful.  

This should prove that the engine and prop are OK.

Clarence

Thanks Clarence.  I will do that in the morning.  

Tom

[exM20K]

Tom,

I went through something similar early this year after a top: MP would lapse in the climb. Things we tried in order to identify the problem:

1. Take the pop-off valve out of the equation
2. Take the wastegate controller our of the equation; run it like a stock 231
3. overhaul the controller
4. vacuum and pressure test the intake system
5. visually inspect the turbos

Since I was able to fly the plane, I was able to identify the MP lapsing.  In your case, they've probably done all these things, but make sure 1 and 2 are good.  If the plane makes compression and has fuel flow, something is either not allowing the turbo to put out sufficiently compressed air, or that compressed air is leaking somewhere before the intake valve.

In my case, it was the rubber hose going from the intake manifold (front of engine) to the G1000 MP sensor/sender (firewall).  That hose sits behind a wire bundle, and when the shop's mechanic snipped the tie-wrap, he or she nicked the hose in such a way that it was next to impossible to see.

So let's add (6) to the list: check MP gauge plumbing for leaks!

-dan

Edited November 16, 2018 by exM20K

[Cody Stallings]

The propeller shouldn’t turn Max Rated RPM Static.

Shouldnt get close if the engine can’t make it to 38-39 Inches.

Was the Propeller gone through while the engine was being Reworked?

I haven’t had a Single Feathering McCauley come in my shop the past couple of months, they have been in pairs.

But that dosent mean another prop Shop wasn’t used.

[Yooper Rocketman]

Well, they found the issue today.  Apparently it was a rod adjustment on something at the right rear of the engine compartment where the rod goes vertically up and down.  He told me what it was, something that effects boost anyway, and it appears to been out of adjustment from before.  Not sure if the mechanic had that apart as it doesn't look like it's actually on the engine.  And if he did, I know he had an Iphone full of pictures as he removed the engine to make sure he put everything back together the same.  

I watched and heard them run it up afterwards and the new engine sounds mean as hell.  I, and several of the mechanics at the shop, were amazed at how loud and mean the thing sounds under a full ground run-up.  The shop closes at 3:30 and the mechanic sent me a text at 5:30 (stayed late to finish for me)  with a picture of it cowled up and right up to the hangar door, ready for test flights tomorrow and Sunday.

Thanks for all the tips guys.  I reviewed all of them with the shop manager and FBO owner and, although all but one test had been done (Clarence's), they still appreciated any and every angle/tip that could help them get me flying again.

Hopefully my buyer is still interested.  I have to close on this sale by end of year or take a huge tax beating.

Tom

 

[Yooper Rocketman]

On 11/15/2018 at 6:02 PM, exM20K said:

Tom,

I went through something similar early this year after a top: MP would lapse in the climb. Things we tried in order to identify the problem:

1. Take the pop-off valve out of the equation
2. Take the wastegate controller our of the equation; run it like a stock 231
3. overhaul the controller
4. vacuum and pressure test the intake system
5. visually inspect the turbos

Since I was able to fly the plane, I was able to identify the MP lapsing.  In your case, they've probably done all these things, but make sure 1 and 2 are good.  If the plane makes compression and has fuel flow, something is either not allowing the turbo to put out sufficiently compressed air, or that compressed air is leaking somewhere before the intake valve.

In my case, it was the rubber hose going from the intake manifold (front of engine) to the G1000 MP sensor/sender (firewall).  That hose sits behind a wire bundle, and when the shop's mechanic snipped the tie-wrap, he or she nicked the hose in such a way that it was next to impossible to see.

So let's add (6) to the list: check MP gauge plumbing for leaks!

-dan

Dan,

When Chad, the owner of Kubick Aviation (and an A&P / IA), read your eventually discovered problem, it sent shivers up his spine!!!!!  They had already pressure tested my intake system, but he realized how difficult a shop would find trying to discover THAT issue.

Tom

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

Well, they found the issue today.  Apparently it was a rod adjustment on something at the right rear of the engine compartment where the rod goes vertically up and down.  He told me what it was, something that effects boost anyway, and it appears to been out of adjustment from before.  Not sure if the mechanic had that apart as it doesn't look like it's actually on the engine.  And if he did, I know he had an Iphone full of pictures as he removed the engine to make sure he put everything back together the same.  

I watched and heard them run it up afterwards and the new engine sounds mean as hell.  I, and several of the mechanics at the shop, were amazed at how loud and mean the thing sounds under a full ground run-up.  The shop closes at 3:30 and the mechanic sent me a text at 5:30 (stayed late to finish for me)  with a picture of it cowled up and right up to the hangar door, ready for test flights tomorrow and Sunday.

Thanks for all the tips guys.  I reviewed all of them with the shop manager and FBO owner and, although all but one test had been done (Clarence's), they still appreciated any and every angle/tip that could help them get me flying again.

Hopefully my buyer is still interested.  I have to close on this sale by end of year or take a huge tax beating.

Tom

 

Great news Tom,

Id be curious to know what the rod that they found does.  I’ve worked on lots of NB series engines, but none in a Mooney.

Clarence

[exM20K]

1 hour ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

Dan,

When Chad, the owner of Kubick Aviation (and an A&P / IA), read your eventually discovered problem, it sent shivers up his spine!!!!!  They had already pressure tested my intake system, but he realized how difficult a shop would find trying to discover THAT issue.

Tom

Really glad you got yours figured out.  The mechanic that found the snipped tube (I was in the shop at the time) looked like a kid a Christmas.  The frustration dims and the appreciation for persistence grows over time.