Insurance woes

[flyboy0681]

As many of you know, last year one of my partner's had an incident in our J last year which required reconstruction of the wing. We have been back in the air since April and she has been flying like a new plane.

A new reality hit today, our insurance renewal. Prior to the incident we were paying just south of $2k a year for full coverage (hull value $115k). Today our agent got back to us after shopping around and the best she could find was a carrier willing to write us for $6,500.

So two questions for those of you who know the business. Is the aircraft being rated by the carrier or is the pilot who had the incident? In other words, if the pilot wasn't a factor, would we still be staring down such a large premium?

Second question, any recommendations?

 

 

 

[Steve W]

I had to renew after my incident this spring, about $60-70k in work on a $130k hull. Went up from $2500 to $2700 with USAIG.

[KLRDMD]

3 hours ago, flyboy0681 said:

As many of you know, last year one of my partner's had an incident in our J last year which required reconstruction of the wing. We have been back in the air since April and she has been flying like a new plane.

A new reality hit today, our insurance renewal. Prior to the incident we were paying just south of $2k a year for full coverage (hull value $115k). Today our agent got back to us after shopping around and the best she could find was a carrier willing to write us for $6,500.

So two questions for those of you who know the business. Is the aircraft being rated by the carrier or is the pilot who had the incident? In other words, if the pilot wasn't a factor, would we still be staring down such a large premium?

Second question, any recommendations?

Offer to accept a high deductible for "in motion". I know someone that had a gear up last year. When he bought another airplane (the first was totaled) insurance came in at $8,000. With a $15,000 deductible for in-motion, the premium came down to $3,000. Also, doing FAASafety courses, yearly flight reviews and IPCs can help too.

[kortopates]

I would assume the increase is from the named insured pilot with the claim. But some partnerships could insure under an LLC name without actually references to named pilots - if so it's an interesting question but would expect the LLC takes the hit as a whole. A definite question for your broker.


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[RobertGary1]

It’d based on the pilots. You can ask the agent to help you come up with a split based on your rate vs the partner. 

With a partner I would not go high deductible or low coverage. If one partner damages the plane you need insurance to make the other whole again. 

-Robert

[RobertGary1]

5 minutes ago, kortopates said:

I would assume the increase is from the named insured pilot with the claim. But some partnerships could insure under an LLC name without actually references to named pilots - if so it's an interesting question but would expect the LLC takes the hit as a whole. A definite question for your broker.


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That doesn’t work. The policy is rated based on the named pilots authorized to fly the plane. There will be an open warranty clause but it only applies to casual access. You don’t want to find out there is no insurance  

-Robert

[bradp]

Another question is - are the repairs completed and the claim closed?  Open claim or unrepaired damage will severely limit the already limited market in which your agent can shop.

Might want to PM Parker, he can't give you specific advice because he's in the underwriting business, but can give solid general advise.

B

[rbridges]

could you be the named pilot and have your partner fly under an open pilot clause?

[mooniac15u]

Have you gotten a quote from Avemco?  They seem to operate independently.  Their rates have always been a little higher than what I could find elsewhere but I've never been quoted $6,500.

[flyboy0681]

Well, it looks like we have some work to do. The responses here were all very enlightening.

And by the way, the book has been closed on the incident.

[RobertGary1]

2 hours ago, rbridges said:

could you be the named pilot and have your partner fly under an open pilot clause?

No. Open pilot cannot have “regular access” to the aircraft. In addition there is no liability coverage for open pilots. 

-Robert 

Edited September 6, 2018 by RobertGary1

[flyboy0681]

3 hours ago, mooniac15u said:

Have you gotten a quote from Avemco?  They seem to operate independently.  Their rates have always been a little higher than what I could find elsewhere but I've never been quoted $6,500.

I took your advice and called. AVEMCO came in at $4,500, which is still a lot, but is $2k less than the other guys.

I'll continue to soldier on.

[rbridges]

2 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

No. Open pilot cannot have “regular access” to the aircraft. In addition there is no liability coverage for open pilots. 

-Robert 

I wasn't aware of that part.  Thanks.

[Bob_Belville]

I've been very pleased with Mike Travers: https://www.traversaviation.com/

[flyboy0681]

Just to update you all, AOPA struck out in attempting to get us coverage. According to the agent I was working with, no carrier wanted to touch us.

It seems to me that they shopped our requirements to about a half dozen carriers but there must be some out there that they did not approach. Any ideas on how to proceed with this really bad situation?

[Hank]

On ‎9‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 9:42 AM, RobertGary1 said:

No. Open pilot cannot have “regular access” to the aircraft. In addition there is no liability coverage for open pilots. 

-Robert 

Having flown friends planes before under their Open Pilot clause, I was not aware of either of these points . . . . . . and I don't they were, either!!

[MIm20c]

I do feel for you. However, after the high payout that you had it might just take the 3 years (I think) of higher premiums and you’ll be back in business.  I’m not sure if the partnership will still need to “claim” the accident history if you ousted the member who ran out of runway. However, to me this is a minor problem and it’s too much work to find compatible partners to risk the harmony for a few thousand...

[Bob_Belville]

51 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

Just to update you all, AOPA struck out in attempting to get us coverage. According to the agent I was working with, no carrier wanted to touch us.

It seems to me that they shopped our requirements to about a half dozen carriers but there must be some out there that they did not approach. Any ideas on how to proceed with this really bad situation?

Did you talk to Mike Travers?

[flight2000]

If you are going to have that big a hit on the premium, are you having your partner taking on a larger portion of the insurance cost since it was his accident that caused the issue?  I'd get a quote for just you as the named insured and then that'll give you an idea of the difference.  Partnership's are great, but something like this needs to be hung on the pilot that caused it, not a shared expense IMHO.  Unfortunately, this may end up testing the friendship as well so take the above with a grain of salt.  If it was me, I'd own up to my mistake and carry the extra insurance burden since my actions caused it.  But that's just me....

Cheers,

Brian

[MyNameIsNobody]

My recommendation is to have your co-owner eat the increase in premium as his decision is the reason your premiums increased.  That should be written into your co-owner agreement.  Insurance carrier is offering a quote instead of saying “No”.  They are looking at the risk and assessing and mitigating exposure.

[RobertGary1]

Most brokers will do the math for you. Just tell them you want to split the premiums. When I’ve had partnerships there was never the intention that we’d split insurance down the middle although in sometimes works out that way.  

I had a friend who wanted to buy a taylorcraft with me but I wasn’t willing to pay more than 1/2 the insurance I’d pay on my own. He didn’t think that was fair so we didn’t pursue the plane. 

-Robert

[Jerry 5TJ]

You formed a partnership to reduce costs and risks overall. 

If the pilot who bent metal is otherwise a good partner then I’d say you should all split the costs evenly and carry on.  

Like an unexpected maintenance event you could view unintentional damage as a shared risk.  Next time it may be your turn.  

[LANCECASPER]

18 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

You formed a partnership to reduce costs and risks overall. 

If the pilot who bent metal is otherwise a good partner then I’d say you should all split the costs evenly and carry on.  

Like an unexpected maintenance event you could view unintentional damage as a shared risk.  Next time it may be your turn.  

I agree completely. Nothing worse on a relationship that assessing blame. Forget it and move on. The Avemco quote was $2000 less than the other quote. It seems like almost everyone's premiums are going up this year. Your portion of the increased premium is probably +/- $1250 extra. In aviation terms that's almost free. (UPDATE: With three partners, each partner's insurance goes up $834)

 Things happen that's why we have insurance. If you were flying it and the engine stopped and you had to land it in a field how would you feel? I agree a bad decision lead to this, but some people take off with a slightly rough running engine and wish they hadn't. If the relationship is worth something forget about it and don't bring it up again. Your partner is probably beating themself up worse than anyone else ever would anyway.

[flyboy0681]

3 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

I agree completely. Nothing worse on a relationship that assessing blame. Forget it and move on. The Avemco quote was $2000 less than the other quote. It seems like almost everyone's premiums are going up this year. Your portion of the increased premium is probably +/- $1250 extra. In aviation terms that's almost free.

 

You guys are right. He has been an excellent partner for years and we should all share in the misfortune.

[pdxphil]

+1 for Travers. They have been great for us.