IFR Setup

[Skates97]

I've been kicking around some ideas in my head for quite awhile now and thought I would throw it out there for the masses to comment on... I am going to pursue my IFR, mainly for the convenience of going up or down through the low marine layer we see along the coast here.  The reality is that here in the west clouds in the summer time often mean convective activity and in the winter icing so there aren't a lot of long flights in the soup in my future. For our typical mission our little D/C is the perfect plane and we won't be outgrowing it with only one 14 yo kid left at home. My plane is not currently equipped for IFR.

I know there are many here that would not fly IFR without a WAAS GPS of whatever variation in the panel but while I would love to put an IFD 440/540 in the panel I just see it as overkill for my mission and money that could be spent elsewhere, like adding in a Tru Trak autopilot when those are available for our Mooneys.

Right now in the panel I have:

• Nav/Com - Narco 12D with glideslope hooked up to a VOR head (Yes, ancient tech but still functioning)
• Com - Garmin SL-40

Thinking of adding:

• KLN-90B or similar (Yes, still ancient tech but from what I read still very capable for what I am looking for and combined with the situational awareness that comes on my tablets I think it serves my needs)
• Dual G5's -
  • I need an HSI/CDI if I put in a KLN-90B and would rather put that money toward the G5 HSI instead of buying a CDI to put in the panel. Will a KLN-90B interface with a G5 HSI?
  • While the mechanical AI works (recently overhauled) I would fell better about having a G5 or similar in the panel and not reliant on the vacuum system.
  • I like the Aspen but to put in an IFR version it is much more than the dual G5 setup.

In my mind going this route would improve the safety supplied by the instruments taking the vacuum pump out of the equation and at the same time get me setup for IFR. I am aware that the mission creep is real and you are all likely to contribute to it, but please toss out your opinions. I'd love to hear from those who have flown with a the KNL-90B or similar GPS as well as those that are still flying around IFR without a 430/650 etc... in their panel.

Oh, and before the usual "Spend your money on an engine monitor" suggestions are made I already put an EDM-830 in the panel.

[EricJ]

I'm in the middle of my IR training after just installing an IFD540 with a G5 HSI.   One consideration is the number of airports with approaches that will be available to you with a GPS, and the number of airports with precision approaches that will be available with GPS w/WAAS.   In other words, if you don't have a GPS, the number of airports available to you for IFR landing in the southwest drops dramatically.

Look on your favorite sectional map browser (vfrmaps, skyvector, whatever), and just browse the available approaches for various airports.  Many airports only have GPS approaches, so if you don't have GPS, they're not an option as either a destination or an alternate.   Also, if you don't have a DME, approaches requiring DME won't be available to you, either.   An appropriate GPS will substitute for a DME, so it keeps your options broad.  Look around on your usual or expected routes at the available approaches at airports along the way and see if it makes a difference to you.   

[jaylw314]

13 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

I've been kicking around some ideas in my head for quite awhile now and thought I would throw it out there for the masses to comment on... I am going to pursue my IFR

Yay!  Good luck!

How is your ride not equipped for IFR?  you have a Nav radio, are you missing one of the other required instruments?

Granted life would certainly be much easier with a second Nav display head and/or DME, but I imagine it would not cost more than an arm and a leg (or at least much more) to add one of those.  Most everyone who has there IFR ticket has trained in a plane like that.  Later on you can equip your ride further depending on what you actually want.

[MIm20c]

Don’t spend your hard earned cash on the install of an old panel mount gps. I’ve seen used 400w units sell in the mid 2’s which would allow a very cheap upgrade to a future 440 if you wanted to. 

The G5 / E5 (also an ifr unit) would be an investment well after a waas approach navigator was installed. It really is the heart of the panel. 

[MBDiagMan]

Skates, Eric makes a very good point.  It may very well be that you can do just fine in your area without a panel certified GPS, but adding one will  make single IFR more reasonable.  Check the approach types in the various airports in your area to help you decide.

i am doing part of my IR training I My IFR Cessna 140, but it works because the approach availability in my area, which I fully expect is much different than the LA or Bay areas.

Good luck with your decision.

[lamont337]

My first thought was also approaches in the area. 

After that, I’m wondering what you want to do first: actually get your rating or upgrade the plane. If the rating is more important in the short term you could start training with what you have and go from there. You could also rent for a few lessons to get experience on approach types you are not currently equipped for. 

[Skates97]

41 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

How is your ride not equipped for IFR?  you have a Nav radio, are you missing one of the other required instruments?

Technically the only thing missing is a clock which is easily remedied, but I don't have the desire to train with just one Nav radio.

37 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

Don’t spend your hard earned cash on the install of an old panel mount gps. I’ve seen used 400w units sell in the mid 2’s which would allow a very cheap upgrade to a future 440 if you wanted to. 

The G5 / E5 (also an ifr unit) would be an investment well after a waas approach navigator was installed. It really is the heart of the panel. 

I hadn't thought of that, one of the reasons to have my ideas kicked around, just to see things I hadn't considered.

14 minutes ago, lamont337 said:

My first thought was also approaches in the area. 

After that, I’m wondering what you want to do first: actually get your rating or upgrade the plane. If the rating is more important in the short term you could start training with what you have and go from there. You could also rent for a few lessons to get experience on approach types you are not currently equipped for. 

I am not in a huge rush for the rating and will be upgrading the plane at least somewhat before beginning the flying. We are blessed with a ton of VFR days out here. I logged 140 hours the first year I had the plane flying multiple trips from SoCal to Arizona, Nevada, Utah, and Idaho. I'm on pace to fly over 100 hours again this year so not having the rating isn't exactly slowing me down. I have changed departure times for weather but I think I only have one trip that I canceled into Phoenix and that was because the forecast (which turned out to be accurate) was for low visibility caused by widespread blowing dust so even if I had the IFR rating I wouldn't have made the flight.

42 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

Skates, Eric makes a very good point.  It may very well be that you can do just fine in your area without a panel certified GPS, but adding one will  make single IFR more reasonable.  Check the approach types in the various airports in your area to help you decide.

i am doing part of my IR training I My IFR Cessna 140, but it works because the approach availability in my area, which I fully expect is much different than the LA or Bay areas.

Good luck with your decision.

The KLN-90B is a panel certified GPS for non-precision approaches and I can pick one up with annunciator for well under 1 AMU.

[gsxrpilot]

I like your thinking. Having a GPS, any GPS will open up the RNAV approaches, the DME approaches, and allow you to file DIRECT.

 

[MBDiagMan]

Sounds like you have thought this out well and coming up with a way to get the most bang for the buck.

[MIm20c]

54 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

The KLN-90B is a panel certified GPS for non-precision approaches and I can pick one up with annunciator for well under 1 AMU.

I’m going from memory but I think the 90b has some memory issues (lack of) and it is not easy to update the database.  The only legal way to shoot approaches with the unit is to keep it updated. If I purchased a plane with it installed I’d run it till it failed for gps direct capabilities and forget about the approaches. 

[Jerry 5TJ]

I went up and down the West coast for years in my C and E.  Most of those years the planes  were IFR equipped with dual nav com + ILS.  Period.  

I got a LOT of utility out of a portable GPS with XM to “supplement” the panel mounted gear.  

 

[RLCarter]

1 hour ago, Skates97 said:

Technically the only thing missing is a clock which is easily remedied, but I don't have the desire to train with just one Nav radio.

Training with 1 nav wouldn't bother me seeing how more than likely it would be in VMC, IMC would be a different story. Most all of my IR was in a 172, I did several hrs in a 150 with 1 com/nav and no GS on the nav head, no big deal

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, Skates97 said:

Technically the only thing missing is a clock which is easily remedied, but I don't have the desire to train with just one Nav radio.

I hadn't thought of that, one of the reasons to have my ideas kicked around, just to see things I hadn't considered.

I am not in a huge rush for the rating and will be upgrading the plane at least somewhat before beginning the flying. We are blessed with a ton of VFR days out here. I logged 140 hours the first year I had the plane flying multiple trips from SoCal to Arizona, Nevada, Utah, and Idaho. I'm on pace to fly over 100 hours again this year so not having the rating isn't exactly slowing me down. I have changed departure times for weather but I think I only have one trip that I canceled into Phoenix and that was because the forecast (which turned out to be accurate) was for low visibility caused by widespread blowing dust so even if I had the IFR rating I wouldn't have made the flight.

The KLN-90B is a panel certified GPS for non-precision approaches and I can pick one up with annunciator for well under 1 AMU.

If your IFR mission will be to shoot the rare approach, and you'll be flying VFR otherwise, it's hard to imagine the usefulness of gearing up the plane with a bunch of extra stuff.  The only reason to do so would be for your IFR training, where 20 hours of flying under the hood with one Nav radio will suck major balls, but that might be all you would need in real life afterwards.  At most, the cheapest approach GPS might make sense, but since you're going to be flying VMC en route, just having an enroute GPS without approach ability would seem a bit silly.

You could always do your IFR training in a different plane--then you could delay a decision on what to do with your ride?

[Niko182]

4 hours ago, Skates97 said:

The reality is that here in the west clouds in the summer time often mean convective activity and in the winter icing so there aren't a lot of long flights in the soup in my future.

While this is somewhat true to an extent, I wouldn't completely agree with this. while summer clouds can mean convective activity (some of these happening in the last 3 weeks), The majority of the time your issue will be a marine layer. Also freezing levels in Socal are pretty high up there, usually being around 9 to 11 thousand feet in winter, and in the Mid teens in summer.

and regarding the 90b, i have the KLN 94 in the eagle, and it has been nothing but a pain in the ass. I have wasted 100s of dollars buying downloads to update the card, and all its done is erase my most recent card so as of now, I'm stuck with a database from 2001, and have like 6 empty cards, that keep on telling me they're invalid for a new database. If I want to update it now, I need to buy a new card, which will set me back a "reasonable" 500 dollars, for a card that came out before I was born.

Save your time and effort and find a reasonably priced 430 waas. In the long run, you'll be way better off.

[1964-M20E]

You can get your IR in the plane as is so go for it.  If you do decide to add equipment and go the most economical route to get a GPS I would plan for the future and provide space for a IFD540.

[hypertech]

4 hours ago, MBDiagMan said:

Check the approach types in the various airports in your area to help you decide.

i am doing part of my IR training I My IFR Cessna 140, but it works because the approach availability in my area, which I fully expect is much different than the LA or Bay areas.

This makes a lot of sense.  Seems like a lot of approaches are going to need at least VOR/DME, 2 VOR or GPS.  You at least need the equipment for the approaches on the airports you want to fly to.

I don't have it in front of me, but you might have to do a precision approach and two different kinds of non-precision approaches on the check ride.  So keep that in mind that you may need to train in another plane and do the ride in that if you need other equipment for all the requirements.

Edited July 17, 2018 by hypertech

[Skates97]

22 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

and regarding the 90b, i have the KLN 94 in the eagle, and it has been nothing but a pain in the ass. I have wasted 100s of dollars buying downloads to update the card, and all its done is erase my most recent card so as of now, I'm stuck with a database from 2001, and have like 6 empty cards, that keep on telling me they're invalid for a new database. If I want to update it now, I need to buy a new card, which will set me back a "reasonable" 500 dollars, for a card that came out before I was born.

Save your time and effort and find a reasonably priced 430 waas. In the long run, you'll be way better off.

Thanks for your insights on the updating issues.

1 hour ago, RLCarter said:

Training with 1 nav wouldn't bother me seeing how more than likely it would be in VMC, IMC would be a different story. Most all of my IR was in a 172, I did several hrs in a 150 with 1 com/nav and no GS on the nav head, no big deal

Appreciate your insight on training with just one Nav/Com. I guess I have one extra going for me with the GS. 

7 minutes ago, 1964-M20E said:

You can get your IR in the plane as is so go for it.  If you do decide to add equipment and go the most economical route to get a GPS I would plan for the future and provide space for a IFD540.

Hmm... Right now just started reading the books. Maybe I'll find a CFII and do a few hours. 

[McMooney]

looks like i'm gonna do the same, just can't justify spending a boatload for my weekend toy.  most likely a garmin 300xl and indicator this year.  was hoping to be able to swing a gns480 but have to save money for gas 8).

 

g5's next year.

[toto]

Slightly off-topic, but I'll just mention that ATC can be pretty accommodating even without an RNAV-equipped ac.

I had one of the original Garmin GPS-100 units (VFR only, before approach certified GPS was even a thing). I had the GPS-100 and/or a handheld GPS, and would routinely file IFR with an airway routing and a note in the comments section that said "GPS on board." I filed /A, so the equipment code accurately reflected installed equipment. Once airborne, I would ask for a "vector direct to destination," and would almost always get it. They would often reply with "say heading to destination" and then give me a vector for whatever heading I said. This was never once questioned by handoff controllers, even on a hundreds-of-miles-long vector. 

I was equipped to fly airways if necessary to a VOR/LOC/ILS on the other end. I was always careful to track progress on the VOR receiver while flying my assigned heading, with the GPS as a remarkably accurate supplement. But I basically flew a vector to the destination.

Anyway, don't discount the value of the rating even with limited equipment. Keep your personal minimums conservative, always have an out, and don't be afraid to ask ATC for something. They can be quite helpful

[Marauder]

I went through this decision in 2012 when I realized that 2 of my favorite destination airports had dropped their VOR approaches in favor of RNAV approaches. Like Jerry, I had been flying for a number of years with VOR/ILS only capability. I will say that a GPS adds a whole new dynamic to IFR flying. In the northeast, filing as a /A would typically keep me on an airway. On occasion, I would get a "direct" to a distant VOR that I knew was due to being in radar coverage and indicating in the Remarks section I had a VFR GPS on board. Whole different game when they start giving you those 5 letter intersections!

[Marauder]

1 minute ago, toto said:

Slightly off-topic, but I'll just mention that ATC can be pretty accommodating even without an RNAV-equipped ac.

I had one of the original Garmin GPS-100 units (VFR only, before approach certified GPS was even a thing). I had the GPS-100 and/or a handheld GPS, and would routinely file IFR with an airway routing and a note in the comments section that said "GPS on board." I filed /A, so the equipment code accurately reflected installed equipment. Once airborne, I would ask for a "vector direct to destination," and would almost always get it. They would often reply with "say heading to destination" and then give me a vector for whatever heading I said. This was never once questioned by handoff controllers, even on a hundreds-of-miles-long vector. 

I was equipped to fly airways if necessary to a VOR/LOC/ILS on the other end. I was always careful to track progress on the VOR receiver while flying my assigned heading, with the GPS as a remarkably accurate supplement. But I basically flew a vector to the destination.

Anyway, don't discount the value of the rating even with limited equipment. Keep your personal minimums conservative, always have an out, and don't be afraid to ask ATC for something. They can be quite helpful

You're scaring me! Either great minds think alike or we are twins and have yet to meet each other.

[toto]

2 minutes ago, Marauder said:

You're scaring me! Either great minds think alike or we are twins and have yet to meet each other.

I'll go with the great minds thing, but I laughed out loud when I saw your post right after I hit "submit"

[Cris]

13 hours ago, Niko182 said:

While this is somewhat true to an extent, I wouldn't completely agree with this. while summer clouds can mean convective activity (some of these happening in the last 3 weeks), The majority of the time your issue will be a marine layer. Also freezing levels in Socal are pretty high up there, usually being around 9 to 11 thousand feet in winter, and in the Mid teens in summer.

and regarding the 90b, i have the KLN 94 in the eagle, and it has been nothing but a pain in the ass. I have wasted 100s of dollars buying downloads to update the card, and all its done is erase my most recent card so as of now, I'm stuck with a database from 2001, and have like 6 empty cards, that keep on telling me they're invalid for a new database. If I want to update it now, I need to buy a new card, which will set me back a "reasonable" 500 dollars, for a card that came out before I was born.

Save your time and effort and find a reasonably priced 430 waas. In the long run, you'll be way better off.

Recently I replaced the KLN94 in my Eagle with a Garmin GTN but the KLN94 was for me a great GPS. It was IFR certified for Approaches and enroute. I found the database updates reasonable in that once purchased you did not need to use them monthly which saved $’s if I did not need to fly with a current database and verified the data it less expensive than the GTN. In terms of the actual database updates there are several methods but the best I found was with the Sandisk  reader and Wingman. If you are using that reader it MUST  be the BK version as the standard reader will corrupt your card. Best to purchase one with a data card so you know it is the BK version. I don’t recall if it is marked differently or not but I don’t think it was. I think BK simply changed the firmware on the standard Sandisk reader. Hopefully this helps. Oh I think you need something other than Windows 10 to use the Sandisk.

This is dated but maybe Lance can still help you out.

For Sale: KLN94 Database Updates $50

LANCECASPER posted a topic in  Avionics / Parts Classifieds

...I will e-mail back your new Database which you can load through your serial cable or usbSandisk card reader. If you do not have the serial cable or usbsandisk, mail me the data card, plus an extra $6 for return USPS Priority mail. I will load the new database and send it back to you within one...

•  March 31, 2014
•  
•  4 replies

Edited July 17, 2018 by Cris
Added LanceCasper

[1964-M20E]

14 minutes ago, Cris said:

Recently I replaced the KLN94 in my Eagle with a Garmin GTN but the KLN94 was for me a great GPS. It was IFR certified for Approaches and enroute. I found the database updates reasonable in that once purchased you did not need to use them monthly which saved $’s if I did not need to fly with a current database and verified the data it less expensive than the GTN. In terms of the actual database updates there are several methods but the best I found was with the Sandisk  reader and Wingman. If you are using that reader it MUST  be the BK version as the standard reader will corrupt your card. Best to purchase one with a data card so you know it is the BK version. I don’t recall if it is marked differently or not but I don’t think it was. I think BK simply changed the firmware on the standard Sandisk reader. Hopefully this helps. Oh I think you need something other than Windows 10 to use the Sandisk. 

This is correct if I remember correctly you will need Vista or older maybe windows 7 will work with the reader for the KLN94.   I still have the XP machine I used for updating the database until I got the IFD 540.

 

 

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, 1964-M20E said:

This is correct if I remember correctly you will need Vista or older maybe windows 7 will work with the reader for the KLN94.   I still have the XP machine I used for updating the database until I got the IFD 540.

 Windows XP!  Ancient history!