201/231/252 for family/commute

[LordHelmet]

Long time lurker, thinking about a Mooney purchase looking for some insight.  I’ve previously built/owned a few RV’s and an IAR-823.  I’ve ruled out any 4 seat experimental as they’re all vastly more expensive (Lancair, RV-10) or have performance issues (Velocity).  The M20 series seems to be the best fit.  I’ve got about 100 hours instructing in an M20J but it was 20 years ago.

I currently live in Reno and am looking for the best combination of speed, economy, maintainability for two mission.

1.) Commuting from Reno to the Bay Area once or twice a month for work (airline pilot).  Winter months when there’s icing are out of the question, and I’d predominantly try and keep to to day VFR or full moon nights.  This would be me solo with minimal gas and about 75% of the flying.

2.) I’ve got two small kids and my wife has really enjoyed the use of friends Bonanzas and Turbo Saratogas, however a newer one is out of reach and the older ones are expensive to maintain and overhaul (and gas pigs for commuting vs an M20).  I’d like something we can grow into and use for family trips, mainly around the west coast but maybe an annual trip across the country to family in FL.  This and some periodic joy rides would be the 25%

 

RNO to the Bay Area requires crossing the Sierras and VFR 8500’ is about as low as you want to be no wind, more like 10-12k.  Solo, a 201 seems to be the best bang for the buck.  For long family trips the 231 and more so the 252 seem to be the right airplane but mild overkill for the solo commuting.  How would the 201 fare with the family at high altitude and 2-3 hours of gas with reserves?  Density altitudes here frequently hit 8k’ in the summers at field elevation.  The kids are small, 3 and 1... but I’d like to be able to grow into whatever we buy and not have useable load become something that cuts us back to two hour legs.

 

For the experienced owners out there, thoughts or recommendations?

Edited June 15, 2018 by LordHelmet

[carusoam]

I used the M20C driving family around the east coast...

NJ to MA...

Until the kids got to be full sized around 12yrs old...

Low cost.  Very useable...  

everything else was out of my price budget...

Best regards,

-a-

[KSMooniac]

Ideally it would be a 252 with an Encore conversion, or an Encore to get you enough useful load for the family. You can get FIKI as well for your winter commute. That would be your ultimate solution...

I fly my J all over from KS, including trips to CO (front range and in the mountains) and it does fine, with caveats. I won't go IFR over the rocks, try to fly as light as possible, etc. I'm going to install a turbo normalizer one of these years, though. I have 1025 lb useful load and can carry 4 non-obese people and light baggage for 500 nm, so it could work for your family trips. Other J's have much less useful load, though. At heavy weights I would want to depart Reno early mornings for summer trips.

For regular trips over mountains, I'd strongly suggest a turbo. Hopefully your budget would support a 252/Encore to get the payload you want.

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[LordHelmet]

The 252/Encore seems to be the best airplane for the job.... they just never come up for sale!

Im not interested in FIKI, one the weight penalty and IFR over the rocks in a single is not my bag.  I don’t want to finish a four day trip only to be terrified the whole way home.  

Tell me about this turbo option for the J....

Edited June 15, 2018 by LordHelmet

[gsxrpilot]

I own a 252... soon to be converted to an Encore. But I'd say the J is what you're looking for. You don't need the turbo to get over the Sierra's when solo and VFR. And the J will do 15,000 if you needed to. You're also not gonna want to be strapping O2 masks on little kids in the back seat so I doubt you'd want to be up in the flight levels and on the bottle for that once a year trip to Florida. A good J is gonna have better useful load than a a 252 and is pretty equal unless above 12,000 ft for speed and performance.

The turbo option on a J just doesn't make sense to me. If you want the turbo, you can buy a 252 and convert it to an Encore for an additional 230 lbs net useful load gain. But I still think you want a stock standard M20J 201.

[KSMooniac]

Tell me about this turbo option for the J....

There was an aftermarket turbo normalizer kit on the market for a while, but not for many years now. I have one (long story) and will install it sooner or later. There isn't an easy way to get one these days...better to just buy a K for less money. I've been upgrading my J for years and will continue, so it is worth it to me.

You might find one for sale now and then but they're rare.

I've had my J up to 17K but it takes a long time to get there, and there isn't margin to deal with downdrafts or mountain wave, so if regularly crossing rocks I'd really want the turbo. Much of my flying is over the plains but I still want a turbo.

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[LordHelmet]

8 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I own a 252... soon to be converted to an Encore. But I'd say the J is what you're looking for. You don't need the turbo to get over the Sierra's when solo and VFR. And the J will do 15,000 if you needed to. You're also not gonna want to be strapping O2 masks on little kids in the back seat so I doubt you'd want to be up in the flight levels and on the bottle for that once a year trip to Florida. A good J is gonna have better useful load than a a 252 and is pretty equal unless above 12,000 ft for speed and performance.

The turbo option on a J just doesn't make sense to me. If you want the turbo, you can buy a 252 and convert it to an Encore for an additional 230 lbs net useful load gain. But I still think you want a stock standard M20J 201.

Excellent point about strapping O2 on the kids.  So if the majority of my flying is below 12k’ you’re saying the J and turbo models are fairly even in terms of speed/economy down low?

Maintaining an IO-360 is def more appealing.  

[DonMuncy]

5 minutes ago, LordHelmet said:

 So if the majority of my flying is below 12k’ you’re saying the J and turbo models are fairly even in terms of speed/economy down low? 

Below about 8, the J is a tad better.  Eight to 12, about equal. Over 12, the turbo shines.

[gsxrpilot]

16 minutes ago, DonMuncy said:

Below about 8, the J is a tad better.  Eight to 12, about equal. Over 12, the turbo shines.

I've read an article that showed numbers to that effect... but I can't seem to find it right now. 

I think if you push the turbo hard at 75% power or better, it will be faster. But if you pull it back LOP to get some range, the J is equal to the K up to about 12K. We all tend to keep the K's around 65% and LOP to get max hours out of the cylinders and turbo. At that power setting, the J is going to keep up with the K to about 12K.

[lamont337]

Every once in a while an F with a Ray Jay will pop up. Rare but might be a nice compromise. 

[Hank]

34 minutes ago, lamont337 said:

Every once in a while an F with a Ray Jay will pop up. Rare but might be a nice compromise. 

I wonder if @SantosDumont sold his F? Or do I misremember it being for sale?

[larryb]

I travel that route regularly, KTRK to KRHV. I had a J for 5 years and now have an Encore. The J did the job, but I wanted more performance. I enjoy the Encore much more but it doesn't make more than a few minutes difference in the time on that route. I usually cross over the summit at 10.5K or 11.5K but will do 12.5K if it is windy. I would never cross at only 8.5K. 

Purchasing a 231 isn't going to cost any more than a J. Maintenance will be very similar as well. Most of the ownership cost is identical between the two. Hanger, avionics, subscriptions, it's all going to be the same. So in other words, why not buy the turbo? 

Larry

[231LV]

first choice; 252/Encore ....second choice straight 252...third choice 231......with the mountains, you will really appreciate the turbo especially with family....no circling to get enough altitude...straight climb up and over...

[flight2000]

If it’s just you 75% of the time and you still have access to a Bonanza or Sarratoga when needed, I’d get a modified M20E.  I flew out of Reno for 2 years, 12 months with my previous Mooney and 12 with the Bonanza I have now.  

No issues with either bird getting over the Sierra’s, only upgraded because I needed more room for my boys and the 270 pound baggage capacity in the Bo.  Yes, I burn more gas (8.5 gph vs 12.7), but also carry more with 1184 useful load versus my previous M20E’s 934 useful.

I always followed I80 between Reno and Sacramento.   More places to land if the fan quit on me.   Usually cruised over between 10 and 11,500.

Not sure who said an older Bonanza was more expensive to maintain, but that has not been the case for me.  Yes, the overhauls are more compared to the 4 cylinder IO360, but your feeding 2 additional cylinders.  Last time I checked 6 cylinder turbo’d TSIO360 engines cost more than my IO520 to overhaul.  Everything will depend on the aircraft you buy and the recent maintenance.  Pick the wrong aircraft and it’ll eat your wallet - Mooney, Piper, Cessna, etc.  Makes no difference.  Whatever you buy, make sure it’s the best one out there for sale and have a Mooney knowledgeable mechanic do the pre-buy.  There are some good shops in California that know the Mooney inside and out.  

Cheers,

Brian

 

 

Edited June 16, 2018 by flight2000

[INA201]

1978J.......Here are my W&B for a flight from KSPA to KJWN about 260 nautical miles. We used about 20 gallons of fuel for the flight.  IDK 145 knots ish.

[SantosDumont]

5 hours ago, Hank said:

I wonder if @SantosDumont sold his F? Or do I misremember it being for sale?

 Not selling, looking for a partner in Vegas. ATC did route a Cirrus under me today and he passed me at 185kts. Got me wanting that extra 30 knots again...

[anthonydesmet]

9 hours ago, 231LV said:

first choice; 252/Encore ....second choice straight 252...third choice 231......with the mountains, you will really appreciate the turbo especially with family....no circling to get enough altitude...straight climb up and over...

Also a 262 can be thrown in the mix if you can find one. Basically a 231 with the benefits and performance of the 252 MB engine plus some other 252 accessories.  Just offering another option.......

another thing to consider is sometimes spouses and kids don’t like turbulence....at least mine weren’t crazy about when we used our friends bonanza at 8-10k. Especially in the summer.  Now we routinely fly in the high teens in smoother air in the summer and punch through a lot of the winter weather on the east coast.  700-800 FPM with wife and two dogs is nice to see.   Plus on the east you get more of a direct routing most of the time because you are above the B/C and on tops of some military air space and less traffic. My kids are now 22 and 27 but they and my wife never minded the O2. It just became part of our culture.

 

[flight2000]

Everyone keeps throwing out the Turbo models, but seem to have missed this statement in his original post.  This may or may not be important since we don't have an operating or purchase budget mentioned that he'd be comfortable with.

13 hours ago, LordHelmet said:

2.) I’ve got two small kids and my wife has really enjoyed the use of friends Bonanzas and Turbo Saratogas, however a newer one is out of reach and the older ones are expensive to maintain and overhaul (and gas pigs for commuting vs an M20).  I’d like something we can grow into and use for family trips, mainly around the west coast but maybe an annual trip across the country to family in FL.  This and some periodic joy rides would be the 25%

So with that in mind, here's what Air Power, Inc is showing for overhaul costs on the engines.  Other boutique engine builders may be a little cheaper or more expensive, but I use this as a bench mark when comparing.  This is only for the engine itself and not the work to remove, R&R, and replace in the aircraft.  That will vary by location around the country because of varying labor costs.

231 TSIO360LB: New $59,200  Rebuilt $49,700

252 TSIO360MB: New $71,765  Rebuilt $58,776

Encore TSIO360SB: New $76,675 Rebuilt $62,925

M20E IO360: New $56,182 Rebuilt $33,449 Overhauled $28,949

M20J IO360: New $57,812 Rebuilt $34,763 Overhauled $30,263

Ovation IO550G: New $50,918 Rebuilt $43,775

Beech E33A/F33A IO520BA: Rebuilt $39,595

My recommendation and some other ideas:

Start with a list of your must haves and nice to haves on a spreadsheet and then figure out the operating costs for each model you're looking at. 

Look at the useful loads and how much you want to play with fuel loads to keep you within CG.  I can send a W&B spreadsheet to play with numbers for both the aircraft I've owned.

Look at your typical load with the family and how many times you'll be balancing the fuel load.  The newer the M20J's got, the worse the useful load. 

Look at the anticipated growth of your kids and the space you have (kind of hard as I wasn't expecting my son to go from a 4'5" 9 year old to a 6'5" 19 yo....).

Look at the typical fuel burns and compute the yearly expected usage and factor average cost of gas per hour

And most important - find a local aircraft to have your wife and kids sit in.  She's already familiar with the bigger aircraft, so need to find a Mooney for her to sit in along with the kids if they haven't been in one before. 

When we were shopping in 2017, I found an M20J (SW's owners plane) and a Rocket ($132K) at Skywagons over in Placerville, CA because I wanted to stay in the Mooney family while upgrading to a "bigger" plane.  Then I found a C210N ($159K) and F33A ($145K) for sale down in Carson City to look at.  When they sat in the F33A, I got smacked for not going with this one in the first place....   (an E33A is one year removed from being an F33A).

Cheers and happy hunting.

Brian

[N201MKTurbo]

From Reno to the Bay Area it would be almost a parabolic trajectory to get to turbo altitudes and back down. The only advantage would be a bit of climb performance at the top of climb.

I flew my old M20F out of Denver into the Rockies every day for four years back in the eighties. Including a couple of IFR flights at 16000.

The turbo is nice, I can fly way up over the rocks instead of through the passes. But for your mission you won’t have time to get way up over anything. 

If you want to haul real people in the back seats you need a mid body. An F or a J would be your best bet. 

Personally, I would get a Johnson bar F. They are incredibly easy to maintain and very reliable.

[pwhicks]

I fly my family of 4 from DFW to NY and FL a few times a year in our '79 201. They were adolescent when we started that.

They are now full sized young adults. (5'6" daughter and 6' son). The kids still happily climb in and go see Grammy! It has impacted how we pack and fuel load now involves planning vs taking 64 gallons every time we fuel as we used to be able to do. It usually works out since we get hungry too!

My first and only trip to Denver with passengers had high DA in the afternoon in September and that was not an experience I enjoyed with the mushy climb. It validated the advice of morning take offs and light as possible.

My lesson learned for upgrading the plane we bought is that finding a good condition plane with the autopilot you want already installed is a good idea for your wallet. Finding one ADS-B updated with a 750 would be an even better bonus saving the labor cost part of the upgrade. The options to date for AP in the 201 have stayed pricey. Maybe the new FAA changes will help with competitive options.

The 201 has been a great choice for us since we can afford to keep it maintained and fly it with the budgets we have as a family. I plan for 155k TAS and fuel plan 11 GPH. We usually do better on the TAS 158k to 162k and also on the fuel while flying with settings based on avoiding the Red Box theory dialed in with the JPI.


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[anthonydesmet]

5 hours ago, flight2000 said:

Everyone keeps throwing out the Turbo models, but seem to have missed this statement in his original post.  This may or may not be important since we don't have an operating or purchase budget mentioned that he'd be comfortable with.

So with that in mind, here's what Air Power, Inc is showing for overhaul costs on the engines.  Other boutique engine builders may be a little cheaper or more expensive, but I use this as a bench mark when comparing.  This is only for the engine itself and not the work to remove, R&R, and replace in the aircraft.  That will vary by location around the country because of varying labor costs.

231 TSIO360LB: New $59,200  Rebuilt $49,700

252 TSIO360MB: New $71,765  Rebuilt $58,776

Encore TSIO360SB: New $76,675 Rebuilt $62,925

M20E IO360: New $56,182 Rebuilt $33,449 Overhauled $28,949

M20J IO360: New $57,812 Rebuilt $34,763 Overhauled $30,263

Ovation IO550G: New $50,918 Rebuilt $43,775

Beech E33A/F33A IO520BA: Rebuilt $39,595

My recommendation and some other ideas:

Start with a list of your must haves and nice to haves on a spreadsheet and then figure out the operating costs for each model you're looking at. 

Look at the useful loads and how much you want to play with fuel loads to keep you within CG.  I can send a W&B spreadsheet to play with numbers for both the aircraft I've owned.

Look at your typical load with the family and how many times you'll be balancing the fuel load.  The newer the M20J's got, the worse the useful load. 

Look at the anticipated growth of your kids and the space you have (kind of hard as I wasn't expecting my son to go from a 4'5" 9 year old to a 6'5" 19 yo....).

Look at the typical fuel burns and compute the yearly expected usage and factor average cost of gas per hour

And most important - find a local aircraft to have your wife and kids sit in.  She's already familiar with the bigger aircraft, so need to find a Mooney for her to sit in along with the kids if they haven't been in one before. 

When we were shopping in 2017, I found an M20J (SW's owners plane) and a Rocket ($132K) at Skywagons over in Placerville, CA because I wanted to stay in the Mooney family while upgrading to a "bigger" plane.  Then I found a C210N ($159K) and F33A ($145K) for sale down in Carson City to look at.  When they sat in the F33A, I got smacked for not going with this one in the first place....   (an E33A is one year removed from being an F33A).

Cheers and happy hunting.

Brian

100% agree with Brian and his approach. Being a mostly east coast guy I forgot Reno to SF is only a couple hundred nm,s.  If my mission was around the 300nm range i would also stick with a F or J. I also looked at F-33A.  But when my mission changed to mostly 550-620nm during mid-course of my airplane search I focused on the 252/231.

[LordHelmet]

Hey Smut I was a VFA-86 guy... when you get out?  Flew Lot 18’s in the fleet but have time in A-F’s.

 

Had no idea the TSIO-360 was so expensive.  I had a 230hp IO-360 custom built for my RV from Lycon for 1/2 the price of that thing.

Lots to consider but I’m really thinking a 201 is the way to go.  I had considered a johnson bar model but was turned off to an older one by a former hanger mate.  His had continuous fuel leaks and electrical problems no matter how much money he threw at it.

 

Brian I’ll send you a PM, I’d like to see your spreadsheet.

I’m trying to find the best airplane out there for about $125k or less, and I’ll budget hourly according to what that winds up being.

 

Interrogative, how do you get a turbo lean of peak?  I was never able to get PA-32 LOP without rapidly bumping up against TIT limits.  A36 was turbo normalized IO-550 but never had an issue going LOP for some reason...

Edited June 17, 2018 by LordHelmet

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, LordHelmet said:

Interrogative, how do you get a turbo lean of peak?  I was never able to get PA-32 LOP without rapidly bumping up against TIT limits.  A36 was turbo normalized IO-550 but never had an issue going LOP for some reason...

I run my 252 LOP regularly without any issues. First never at anything above 65% power. Second, a GAMI lean test (GAMI's not required for this) to determine the fuel distribution spread. As long at this spread is less than 0.5 gph it should run LOP just fine.  I've never seen a TIT of more than 1600 even at peak. But the 252 is really well cooled. LOP typically has my TIT around 1500 and my CHT's all <350.

If "LOP" puts you at the TIT limit, you're not likely LOP, probably closer to peak. Which with a lousy GAMI spread, will be as lean as you can go.

[Warren]

6 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I run my 252 LOP regularly without any issues. First never at anything above 65% power. Second, a GAMI lean test (GAMI's not required for this) to determine the fuel distribution spread. As long at this spread is less than 0.5 gph it should run LOP just fine.  I've never seen a TIT of more than 1600 even at peak. But the 252 is really well cooled. LOP typically has my TIT around 1500 and my CHT's all <350.

If "LOP" puts you at the TIT limit, you're not likely LOP, probably closer to peak. Which with a lousy GAMI spread, will be as lean as you can go.

I have a 231 with the upper deck pressure controller and an intercooler (similar to gxsrpilot with a little smaller turbo and not quite as good coolling).  I always run lean of peak except for during the climb (full rich for this) and am limited by TIT at high power settings.  My GAMI spread is about 0.5gph and all the cylinder heads run <360 (at 16-18k altitude, approx. 0C, near 75% power LOP).  I am limited by the TIT.  75% power for me is 11.5 gph (I use 2500 rpm and about 33” MP).  Usually at 11.5 gph I will run too high on TIT (it usually puts me really close to 1650 TIT) so I choose to back off a little.  I lean until I get under 1625 to have a little margin.  Using this limit I can usually find a good cruise at 11.0-11.3 gph making almost 75% power (much smaller number for me than a rocket) and this results in about 175-180 TAS at 16-18k.

As you apporach 75% power, TIT is the limiting factor (in a TSIO-360).  When LOP,  TIT will be approx. 100F higher than in EGT.  Under lean conditions the flame front is burning so much slower so there is residual combustion happening in the exhaust which continues to raise the temperature afther the EGT sensors.

[LordHelmet]

On the PA-32 I was never able to get the EGTs to the lean side of peak before I was up to TIT limits.  Further leaning to peak to get on the lean side would’ve put TIT over the limit... hence my dilemma and why I was curious how you guys do it.