nels Posted June 13, 2018 Report Posted June 13, 2018 I’m considering flying to a car show n Tacoma, Washington the last week of August and returning the first week of September. I’ve never flown to the west coast only as far as Denver. I’m wondering if there is a relatively safe route across the mountains that would be doable for someone with no mountain flying experience. I’ve got time to wait out weather etc if necessary but don’t have time to take mountain flying training. With no training and no experience in mountainous terrain, would it just be out of the question? Also, I’m not IFR rated so would only try it if weather was totally on my side. The plane is a 1978 J model. Quote
kpaul Posted June 13, 2018 Report Posted June 13, 2018 8 minutes ago, nels said: I’m considering flying to a car show n Tacoma, Washington the last week of August and returning the first week of September. I’ve never flown to the west coast only as far as Denver. I’m wondering if there is a relatively safe route across the mountains that would be doable for someone with no mountain flying experience. I’ve got time to wait out weather etc if necessary but don’t have time to take mountain flying training. With no training and no experience in mountainous terrain, would it just be out of the question? Also, I’m not IFR rated so would only try it if weather was totally on my side. The plane is a 1978 J model. As long as you can build in time to avoid weather, you should go for it. I would fly the northern route. Fly through KGTF (Great Falls, MT) to KSFF (Spokane, WA). I would plan that leg for early in the morning and you should be fine. 1 Quote
StevenL757 Posted June 13, 2018 Report Posted June 13, 2018 I would suggest avoiding the “great circle” altogether with the lack of experience you indicate. Head West, targeting somewhere around Las Vegas and then turn North up the coast. Being VFR, you need to watch for fog in and around the coast, and be aware of icing potential. Not an impossible trip by any stretch, but again, I suggest you plan carefully, avoid “get-there-itis”, be prepared to spend time waiting out weather where needed, and ensure your aircraft is in top shape. Lots more to consider, but from a high level perspective, start with those things. You’ll have more questions and things to consider as you get more into your planning. Be careful and enjoy. Steve 1 Quote
Bartman Posted June 13, 2018 Report Posted June 13, 2018 If I had the time and opportunity to do this, I would do everything I had to do to make it a reality. The memories will be worth much more than the cost of the trip. You have plenty of time to plan. Let us know how it goes. 1 1 Quote
Pritch Posted June 13, 2018 Report Posted June 13, 2018 Easy Peasy, came back from Oshgosh years ago in my 63C. Went from Fon du lac to Pierre SD, to Livingston MT, Spokane and then shot down to Northern Ca. All at 10.5K or lower. Just follow interstate 90 and then across Washington to Tacoma. Pritch 1 1 Quote
DanM20C Posted June 13, 2018 Report Posted June 13, 2018 I have taken the northern route (as @kpaul mentioned) several times in my old C. A J would have no problems. I have also enjoyed going to BOY - DNW - over Jackson Hole - Idaho Falls and then on to Boise. This is much more scenic (fly by the Tetons) than the northern route but good weather is critical. Go for it, you will have a great time! Cheers, Dan 2 1 Quote
FlyinAggie14 Posted June 13, 2018 Report Posted June 13, 2018 (edited) Not a problem at all I've taken the trip across the mountains in both direction on V4 all the way from Colorado to Washington. Should be no problem in July-September without IFR. Beautiful flight and KJER in Idaho usually is your last cheap fuel stop prior to the PNW so I would advise stopping in there and topping off. If your coming during August just check for TFRs for firefighting operations. Also if you are up here you should fly up to the San Juan Islands. Should be a quick hour flight up to KFHR from Tacoma to see the sights. Edited June 13, 2018 by FlyingAg14 1 Quote
jaylw314 Posted June 13, 2018 Report Posted June 13, 2018 35 minutes ago, nels said: I’m considering flying to a car show n Tacoma, Washington the last week of August and returning the first week of September. I’ve never flown to the west coast only as far as Denver. I’m wondering if there is a relatively safe route across the mountains that would be doable for someone with no mountain flying experience. I’ve got time to wait out weather etc if necessary but don’t have time to take mountain flying training. With no training and no experience in mountainous terrain, would it just be out of the question? Also, I’m not IFR rated so would only try it if weather was totally on my side. The plane is a 1978 J model. The Pacific Northwest can be difficult to get into with weather, but during the late summer your chances are pretty good. Around Seattle, clouds are always an issue, and I shudder thinking about coming over the Cascades with weather. However, if you come from the south, from California, the weather is a pretty good bet coming up the valley west of Mount Shasta and into the Oregon Willamette Valley. From there, you have low terrain all the way up to Seattle. During the summer, ceilings are usually 4000-6000 MSL at the lowest until you get up nearer Puget Sound. If you somehow end up coming from the east and are blocked by clouds coming over the Cascades, sometimes you can still get through following the Columbia River westward to Portland, but near Portland it narrows into a gorge with high walls. It's still over a mile across, but narrow enough to get pretty cramped. 1 1 Quote
Minnesota Mooney Guy Posted June 13, 2018 Report Posted June 13, 2018 Hello Dan M20C, I also own a M20C based at KANE in the Twin Cities. I wonder if you would contact me via email as I have an opportunity to fly to Bozeman the last week of August but have not flown in Montana before. I am looking for suggestions on routes as I get into the high country around Bozeman. Or, anyone with experience flying in the mountains in that part of the country please contact me at bill@bondassociates.org Thanks. Bill Quote
gacoon Posted June 13, 2018 Report Posted June 13, 2018 This will get you there, about 1750nm, what are you flying? 2 Quote
ArtVandelay Posted June 13, 2018 Report Posted June 13, 2018 I would consider the southern route (Phoenix-LA and then up the coast) as a backup plan. If you have the time you can do Vegas, Grand Canyon. I would plan on dawn launches as the norm and remember you can have clear sky but winds will prevent you from flying. 1 Quote
DAVIDWH Posted June 13, 2018 Report Posted June 13, 2018 In the past have had significant delays with credit card fuel stops flying over different states. A phone call in advance would prob. suffice. 1 Quote
Igor_U Posted June 13, 2018 Report Posted June 13, 2018 I would definitely fly the northern route as mentioned by kpaul. One place to stop for cheap fuel is Hazen, ND (KHZE). That's my stop from OSH and they have SR71 aero tunnel model in pilot's lunge. Apart from widespread front, weather should be VFR and you will not have turbulence associated with high temps in Desert as you would have flying over NV desert. Puget sound is really dry July 'till end of September with no rain but can sometimes can be cloudy if you are coming across the Cascades. However, that would be normally associated with marine layer off the Sound that would burn off by 10-11 am. Weather is normally fantastic for flying and dry. Wiled fires can be a factor east of Cascades (even more on southern route through OR and CA) so check the TFRs as they can pop-up for firefighting operations. It would be nice to have O2 but not needed as 10,500' is all you need that way, possibly higher for comfort around Great Falls. As someone mentioned, you should fly to San Juan islands (KFHR and KORS) where you can walk to the town for lunch and enjoy the great sights. it's a 40' flight over Puget Sound from KTIT ( I assume you'll be based there). Is that a Tacoma Classic Car Show you are going to? Check LeMay car museum, it has great collection of fine cars. Speaking of museums, area has quite a few airplane museums: There's Museum of Flight at KBFI of course but KPAE has much more to offer. It has great Flying Heritage Museum owned by Paul Allen, Historic Flight Foundation, Museum of Flight restoration center and Future of flight with Boeing tour I highly recommend. Book it in advance; they build all the wide bodies over there. FHM and HFF are flying museums so, if interested, you can check their websites for flying day schedules and catch P51, de Havilland Mosquito, Spitfire or Messerschmitt 109 flying around. Have fun on your trip. 6 1 Quote
steingar Posted June 13, 2018 Report Posted June 13, 2018 I think doing a trip like that VFR would be safer than IFR, only because I wouldn't want to be IFR tangling with those rocks. I don't say yes, do it, I say hell yes. Its why we own airplanes. 4 1 Quote
PaulM Posted June 13, 2018 Report Posted June 13, 2018 I did that route about 20 years ago in a J model VFR KBLI KSFF KLWT. 9-10K or so.. You won't have any problems.. I did it last year, IFR but in a Bravo, 95D KGPI KFHR 12K.. 1 1 Quote
DXB Posted June 13, 2018 Report Posted June 13, 2018 Thanks to all - great thread - just leaving my mark here to reference back to it at some point. My bird has never been west of St. Louis under my ownership. I think she would enjoy a trip down the west coast sometime as a vacation, but I'm a total noob to the high mountains and will want to do it O2-free using the safest routes with the lowest MEAs. 1 1 Quote
Bob - S50 Posted June 13, 2018 Report Posted June 13, 2018 Go IFR (I follow roads). On the way out, pick up Interstate 90 by Billings, MT and follow it all the way to Seattle. The highest point on the route is just east of Butte, MT. You can do most of that route as low as 8500' and still be at least 2000' AGL But you will probably want to be at 10,500' to cross the pass east of Butte. If you are looking at it from an airways point of view it would be more or less BIL(Billings) V86 CPN(Coppertown) V257 GLUES direct MSO(Missoula) V2 BANDR (just east of Seattle). Then just stay clear of all the airspace. Is the show actually in Tacoma? KTIW is across the bridge (toll going eastbound) from Tacoma. Or is it at the Washington State Fairgrounds (Puyallup). If it's in Puyallup then consider KPLU. There are a couple hotels that are walking distance from the fairgrounds. On the way home, go IFR again. Follow I90 to Ellensburg, WA then I82 to Pendleton, OR then I84 to Logan, UT. There is a pretty nice valley just SE of there to head east toward Rocksprings, WY. From there, follow I80 eastbound to Rawlins then keep heading east. The highest point will be east of Logan. You should be able to do it all at 9500' but you might be more comfortable at 11,500' for parts of it. IFR wise that is essentially BANDR V298 YKM V4 MEDEA (just east of Burley, ID) direct LHO (just west of Logan), up the valley then direct OCS (Rocksprings) V6 MBW (Medicine Bow, WY) and points east. 1 1 Quote
Minnesota Mooney Guy Posted June 13, 2018 Report Posted June 13, 2018 Thanks gacoon. I am only going to Bozeman ( or if I get real confident to ENNIS - Big Sky as my meeting is at Big Sky Resort so I could go there). I am pretty sure I can handle everything but the last 50 n. miles or so as I see major mountains around Bozeman. I am IFR rated and proficient and am flying a 1968 M20C with a turbo (waste gate style) and plumed in oxygen that I have yet to use at altitude although the regulator has been tested and certified as an altitude sensitive regulator. The route you suggest is fine except the last 50 miles. Any advice around getting in and out of Bozeman which I intend to do only VFR. Or further advice about the wisdom of a flat lander going on to ENNIS (EKS) I am a flat land flyer here in the Midwest so the mountains are intimidating to me. Bill Quote
ArtVandelay Posted June 13, 2018 Report Posted June 13, 2018 I think doing a trip like that VFR would be safer than IFR, only because I wouldn't want to be IFR tangling with those rocks. I don't say yes, do it, I say hell yes. Its why we own airplanes. If you’re flying IFR, the minimum altitudes will keep you clear of mountains unless you are way off on altitude or course. Although I still prefer VFR, I like the view. 1 1 Quote
jaylw314 Posted June 13, 2018 Report Posted June 13, 2018 2 hours ago, DXB said: Thanks to all - great thread - just leaving my mark here to reference back to it at some point. My bird has never been west of St. Louis under my ownership. I think she would enjoy a trip down the west coast sometime as a vacation, but I'm a total noob to the high mountains and will want to do it O2-free using the safest routes with the lowest MEAs. It's probably worth getting a portable O2 setup if you do--that would give you that much more margin for safety. The cost would be much less than the fuel you spend on the trip, so I'd say it's a no-brainer. Quote
AlexLev Posted June 13, 2018 Report Posted June 13, 2018 (edited) This thread inspired me to plan a trip from Buffalo to Yellowstone in the M20G sometime in late August. The poor climb rate worries me a little bit and I'd definitely love some routing suggestions for the flight to Yellowstone. I am IFR capable. Edited June 13, 2018 by AlexLev 1 Quote
flyboy0681 Posted June 13, 2018 Report Posted June 13, 2018 9 hours ago, Igor_U said: Speaking of museums, area has quite a few airplane museums: There's Museum of Flight at KBFI of course but KPAE has much more to offer. It has great Flying Heritage Museum owned by Paul Allen, Historic Flight Foundation, Museum of Flight restoration center and Future of flight with Boeing tour I highly recommend. I visited the Museum of Flight last Saturday and thought I arrived in Mecca. Since I was 10 years old in 1970 I have followed "Ship 1", the first 747 and I finally got to see it up close, sans the upper deck. I thought I died and went to heaven. The cabin hasn't changed since 1968 except for some more modern testing equipment and is like a time capsule. Also on display is the first 727 and 737, the original Air Force One 707, the Concorde and the 787 test plane. 1 Quote
mooniacX Posted June 13, 2018 Report Posted June 13, 2018 Just always remember, when approaching mountains, go over them at a 45 degree angle, just in case you encounter wind sheer. You can safely turn out of it. So many people without mountain experience go straight over and can't do a 180 which leads to problems. Good luck with your flight and have a safe trip!! 1 Quote
Hank Posted June 13, 2018 Report Posted June 13, 2018 4 hours ago, AlexLev said: This thread inspired me to plan a trip from Buffalo to Yellowstone in the M20G sometime in late August. The poor climb rate worries me a little bit and I'd definitely love some routing suggestions for the flight to Yellowstone. I am IFR capable. Yellowstone was a great trip from WV. We stopped for fuel in Keokuk, IA in the west bank of the River, and reached KRAP in time for a late lunch. The FBO there arranged a hotel room around half price; I called for a rental car from Avis once we knew when we would arrive, it wasn't a long walk to get it. The next stop was Cody, WY, Yellowstone Regional Airport, field elevation 5100 msl. Coming over from KRAP, we detoured up near BIL Billings VOR and flew south down the valley to Cody with visibility of at least 0-60 miles. It's strange, though, flying along at 8500 msl and looking up at mountains on both sides, 20-30 miles away. The rodeo runs every night in Cody through Aug 31. We had light snow there, with significant accumulation in the Park, just a couple days after we arrived; our trip spanned Labor Day weekend. While in Rapid City, we found Mt. Rushmore but not Crazy Horse. Do the latter first, it's hard to tear yourself away from Rushmore--there's a lot going on there. The rest of the time, just look for fuel stops with reasonable prices. With 3 hour legs, you'll have choices until leaving KRAP. Not much in the Badlands except dry creeks and a lot of bad land . . . . and it all looks very bumpy from 8500 msl. P.S.--I took my C from WV to Yellowstone before I even started working on IFR. Had one long, early lunch somewhere in southern Illinois, landed with two non-intersecting runways buried in a corn field with short final over walmart. "Home of the Friendly People" was painted on the courtesy car, and it was true. Coming home, stopped short of planned Springfield due to very heavy rain ahead. The airport name was painted on the curved ramp, there was an outdoor aviation museum there, and a Russell Stover outlet across the parking lot from Holiday Inn (made my wife's day!). Have a good trip, and fly safe!! 1 Quote
nels Posted June 14, 2018 Author Report Posted June 14, 2018 I didn’t expect this much response and a ton of really good advice. I kind of like the idea of following an interstate, sorta gives a warm feeling that there is some place to put the plane down if you have to other than a mountain side somewhere. The problem might be traffic as that could be what a lot of other pilots are doing? A lot to consider for sure. The southern route, especially as an alternate, sounds like a good idea. A trip up the west coast would be kind of cool. My real problem might be getting someone to fly along with me and share expenses. I don’t think my wife would do it and I haven’t mentioned it to any of my car buddies yet. They might not think it such a cool adventure and would probably think of it as too expensive relative to commercial flights. It’s all “Up in the AIR” right now (haha) but I agree, if I pull it off it will be a trip of a life time. Someone asked where the show is; not sure where the head quarters of the meet is but the parts swap meet is at the Tacoma Dome so I assume the show is somewhere close to that? Also, my plane is a 1978 M20 J. Quote
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