KSMooniac Posted June 11, 2018 Report Share Posted June 11, 2018 A few weeks ago I got an unsolicited call from a 3rd party consulting firm looking to borrow a J model to go fly approaches at the accident airport. They were willing to pay "significant" money but I don't know how much. They didn't tell me the reason initially, but I was able to figure out where they were headed and then they confirmed it was related to this lawsuit. I declined the offer on principle since they're going to make my passion more expensive with this case. They also claimed the NTSB has this one wrong. I suspect they're not that first plaintiff to say so.Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tspear Posted June 11, 2018 Report Share Posted June 11, 2018 Kinda funny, a thread started on POA about lawsuits: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/stella-awards.111529/ Tim 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bravoman Posted June 11, 2018 Report Share Posted June 11, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, DXB said: It's easy for a skilled plaintiff's lawyer to build a compelling narrative that is tenuously linked to facts but still appears to meet the lowered standard of evidence required in civil cases. An ideal audience for such false narratives is a typical Philly juror - someone who is poor, uneducated, prone to feeling victimized by society. If you add in the lack of damage caps in Pennsylvania, it's easy to see why Philly has become a magnet for these types of suits. The practice model for many plaintiff's firms in Philly is to quickly settle tons of garbage cases for fairly modest amounts of money. The scope of the racket is hidden because terms of settlements are usually confidential, and it's usually cheaper and easier to pay a settlement than risk a trial before a Philly jury. But in this case, the defendants have dug in, with pre-trial proceedings dragging on for almost 3 years. Sadly, the Wolk Firm stills benefits some if they lose a jury trial after doing years of work on fee contingency. It burnishes their reputation as one of the premier aviation firms that will fight to the bitter end, thus allowing them to command bigger settlements in more typical cases. If it gets tried, then at least the proceedings and outcome see the much-needed light of day, providing evidence of how the perverse system works and identifying the people who help perpetuate it. As I noted above, you can follow progress of this active case here: https://fjdefile.phila.gov/efsfjd/zk_fjd_public_qry_03.zp_dktrpt_setup_idx?uid=zUa43gdNCIolqsSYDxam&o=DWgiXQ3dY!rzHdb Enter Case ID 150702501. I can tell you that carrying the burden of proof is much harder than defending a case. Much harder to build a house than it is to tear it down. If you think that anybody rolls over and plays dead, you are mistaken. Manufacturers and their insurers don’t settle cases on a nuisance basis, and the plaintiffs firms that handle these cases spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and more on each case. This money goes out the window if the case is lost. The cost of pursuit is the best safeguard against non-meritorious cases being advanced. Once again, and with due respect, you are not speaking from knowledge. Edited June 11, 2018 by Bravoman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tspear Posted June 11, 2018 Report Share Posted June 11, 2018 3 minutes ago, Bravoman said: I can tell you that carrying the burden of proof is much harder than defending a case. Much harder to build a house than it is to tear it down. If you think that anybody rolls over and plays dead, you are mistaken. Manufacturers and their insurers don’t settle cases on a nuisance basis, and the plaintiffs firms that handle these cases spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and more on each case. This money goes out the window if the case is lost. The cost of pursuit is the best safeguard against non-meritorious cases being advanced. Once again, and with due respect, you are not speaking from knowledge. The problem is the cost of defense ads to the bill for everyone. Not only is the prosecution spending money, so is the defense. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted June 11, 2018 Report Share Posted June 11, 2018 I just can't wait for Timmy to pop up in this thread. You know he is out there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted June 11, 2018 Report Share Posted June 11, 2018 6 hours ago, David Herman said: Are you referencing McDonald’s coffee or Lycoming engines? McDonald’s coffee. It’s a poster case for what’s wrong with the jury award system but it’s actually a postercase for what’s wrong with big corporations. What if the coffee nearly killed her with 3rd degree burns, and what if they only offered 800$ for her 20k in medical bills which she offered to settle for. And what if they had 700 other complaints about the same kind of injuries and they concealed that and chose to not address the problem nor redesign he coffee cup lid to not “pop” off, causing the cup to collapse. And what if the fine was basically THREE DAY’s coffee recenue for McDonald’s. Still ok? https://www.ttla.com/index.cfm?pg=McDonaldsCoffeeCaseFacts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinwing Posted June 11, 2018 Report Share Posted June 11, 2018 2 hours ago, Marauder said: I just can't wait for Timmy to pop up in this thread. You know he is out there! Well that's an improvement 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted June 11, 2018 Report Share Posted June 11, 2018 11 minutes ago, David Herman said: There’s so much injustice in the world. I think I’ll refuse to stand for the national anthem and start suing everyone who has some money. Kind of live like a human parasite. Occupy MooneySpace ... until someone gives me a new Ultra!!! Just doing my little part to make the world a better place ... by tearing down those who actually work and make something ... thanks for addressing the five specific things of the case I highlighted above. the above post looks like a non sequitur... or, put another way, appeal to Logos instead of Pathos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted June 11, 2018 Report Share Posted June 11, 2018 3 hours ago, Bravoman said: I can tell you that carrying the burden of proof is much harder than defending a case. Much harder to build a house than it is to tear it down. If you think that anybody rolls over and plays dead, you are mistaken. Manufacturers and their insurers don’t settle cases on a nuisance basis, and the plaintiffs firms that handle these cases spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and more on each case. This money goes out the window if the case is lost. The cost of pursuit is the best safeguard against non-meritorious cases being advanced. Once again, and with due respect, you are not speaking from knowledge. I lack the perspective of a plaintiff's lawyer, but I know what it is like to be a defendant in a large lawsuit. That experience is shared by all of my colleagues in Philly who have practiced in my sub-specialty for more than a few years, with most accumulating multiple suits. I also have taken a few select opportunities to offer expert testimony. The overarching commonality of the suits I've been involved in are catastrophic patient outcomes where the alleged professional negligence likely had no causal relationship to the outcome. These scenarios seem closely analogous to Lycoming getting sued over an imperfect magneto design that likely had no causal relationship to this pilot's unfortunate demise. Also the venue does matter profoundly. None of the plaintiffs or defendants in this aviation case are based in Philly, and the accident occurred in Kansas. This suit was filed in Philly for a very specific reason by exploiting some technicality. It's the very same reason I have to pay >10-fold more in med mal insurance in Philly than I would to practice in Dallas. I have no desire here to categorically bash lawyers or claim that most civil suits are frivolous. However there is certainly a specific breed of ambulance chasing scumbag that flourishes in my hometown. Their modus operandi is not carefully developing the merits of a case but rather haphazardly throwing every conceivable allegation out there to see if something will stick. Some of the med mal filings I've seen are laughably nonsensical to someone with a real understanding of the specialty practice. Likewise, there might be some hidden substance to this particular aviation case, but it's certainly not easy to conjecture what it might be. 7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShuRugal Posted June 12, 2018 Report Share Posted June 12, 2018 10 hours ago, Bravoman said: I would not disagree that the jury award in that case might have been aberrationally high, but what a lot of people don’t know about that case is that the coffee was heated to the temperature of molten lava, I think north of 180°, which is unreasonable. The injuries were also fairly significant, as it caused second and 3rd° burns to someone’s genital area requiring a lot of medical treatment, including grafts. Once again, most people don’t know the facts. Our civil justice system is the best in the world. The cases you read about are very much the tip of the iceberg. The courts and the juries usually get to the right result. As a matter of fact, in this particular case the jury award was written down significantly by the court to a fraction of its original size. Can’t remember the exact number. Thank you for pointing out these facts.... This particular topic is a pet peeve of mine. Quick summary of the details for those who are aware of them. The woman suffered 3rd degree burns to 6% of her body, and lesser burns to %16 of her body These burns completely destroyed her external genitals: Her clitoris and both sets of labia were not existent after this incident She was hospitalized for eight days She required a further 3 weeks of medical attention during her recovery She received significant permanent disfigurement McDonalds had conducted an internal study of their policy on coffee temperature as the result of numerous smaller cases their findings were Customers were overwhelmingly drinking the coffee immediately, rather than after arriving at their destination None of their competitors were keeping coffee this hot These temperatures were resulting in numerous complaints of burn injuries to the mouth and lips The conclusion of this study was that keeping the coffee at this temperature served no profitable purpose, and was likely to seriously injure someone Despite the results of this internal study, McDonald's leadership made the decision to continue keeping the coffee as close to boiling as possible Further, during the trial one of McDonald's executives testified that, despite having received over 700 reports of customers receiving third-degree burns from their coffee, and having previously paid out as much as $500,000 in individual settlements, McDonald's had no intention of altering their coffee policies in the interests of safety. This demonstrated such a clear reckless and malicious disregard for the safety of their patrons that the Jury decided to award two days worth of coffee sales revenue as punitive damages, which was justified by finding that McDonald's was aware of the hazard for burns, that burns were happening, and that the willfully chose to pursue a course of action which would result in more burns. Unfortunately, McDonald's PR team has done a fantastic job of spin-doctoring this to look like the case was the complete opposite: The general public largely and genuinely believes that McDonald's was serving coffee at normal temperatures (they weren't), that the cup was adequately labeled (it wasn't), that the woman's injuries were minor (they were severe), or even that the woman somehow deliberately spilled it on herself (she didn't). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted June 12, 2018 Report Share Posted June 12, 2018 (edited) That sounds like a frivolous lawsuit to me. Unless it was MY grandma.. Edited June 12, 2018 by jetdriven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhop Posted June 12, 2018 Report Share Posted June 12, 2018 On 6/10/2018 at 3:08 PM, takair said: Can an entire thread be deleted? Yes... I inadvertently deleted one of my threads... it was too easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Starke Posted June 12, 2018 Report Share Posted June 12, 2018 I long for the good old days when you had to use your noggin. Growing up I didnt require a label on electronic devices warning me to not use the hair dryer while I was in the tub, I used my ole noggin. I never ironed my clothes while wearing them, I used my noggin. Not once did I attempt to check my fuel level using my Bic lighter as a light source, I used my noggin.... Seems people today don't use their noggins anymore. They expect every product to be completely safe. Let someone else do the thinking for them and provide a safety label. If they get hurt, call John Morgan, for the people, because "it''s not my fault, I'm a victim". Glad I still have my noggin and know how to use it. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bravoman Posted June 12, 2018 Report Share Posted June 12, 2018 Like Forest Gump said, that’s all I got to say about that! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tommy123 Posted June 12, 2018 Report Share Posted June 12, 2018 Did anyone consider that the suit is being filled in PA because Lycoming is in PA? The coffee comments are a great illustration of how people when confronted by facts continue to believe the lies they choose to believe. If you think the coffee was served they way it should have been, have a waitress at your favorite diner pour some scalding water in your lap, I'm sure you won't sue them when you become essentially sexless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 12, 2018 Report Share Posted June 12, 2018 5 hours ago, David Herman said: At least it wasn’t a picture of a morbidly obese woman! That may be the result of viewing too many of Marauder’s ladies. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertGary1 Posted June 12, 2018 Report Share Posted June 12, 2018 On 6/10/2018 at 6:00 PM, M20Doc said: Two things which would help in these situations. Make the plaintive pay the legal bill of the defendant when they lose and get smarter juries. Clarence And punitive damages don’t go to the plaintiff. That’s where the big money is but in the eyes of the law the plantif is already made whole with actual damages, pain suffering etc. punitive has nothing to do with them. -Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertGary1 Posted June 12, 2018 Report Share Posted June 12, 2018 12 hours ago, Bravoman said: I would not disagree that the jury award in that case might have been aberrationally high, but what a lot of people don’t know about that case is that the coffee was heated to the temperature of molten lava, I think north of 180°, which is unreasonable. The injuries were also fairly significant, as it caused second and 3rd° burns to someone’s genital area requiring a lot of medical treatment, including grafts. Once again, most people don’t know the facts. Our civil justice system is the best in the world. The cases you read about are very much the tip of the iceberg. The courts and the juries usually get to the right result. As a matter of fact, in this particular case the jury award was written down significantly by the court to a fraction of its original size. Can’t remember the exact number. Actually the plantif wasnt going to sue and no lawyer would have bothered with the case until the plantifs mom showed the nasty letter mcD’s sent her daughter to a neighbor. Mcd’s Could have said “sorry it was hot” but they went beyond and ridiculed her on their official letterhead. Then in trial mcds wrote the book on how to lose a lawsuit. If they’d showed any sympathy without guilt they’d probably have won. But the plantif was showing pictures of massive burns and surgeons talking about the damage and mcds put defense witnesses up that basically said “she’s an idiot, coffee is hot”. Textbook way to lose a case. -Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinwing Posted June 12, 2018 Report Share Posted June 12, 2018 4 hours ago, DXB said: I lack the perspective of a plaintiff's lawyer, but I know what it is like to be a defendant in a large lawsuit. That experience is shared by all of my colleagues in Philly who have practiced in my sub-specialty for more than a few years, with most accumulating multiple suits. I also have taken a few select opportunities to offer expert testimony. The overarching commonality of the suits I've been involved in are catastrophic patient outcomes where the alleged professional negligence likely had no causal relationship to the outcome. These scenarios seem closely analogous to Lycoming getting sued over an imperfect magneto design that likely had no causal relationship to this pilot's unfortunate demise. Also the venue does matter profoundly. None of the plaintiffs or defendants in this aviation case are based in Philly, and the accident occurred in Kansas. This suit was filed in Philly for a very specific reason by exploiting some technicality. It's the very same reason I have to pay >10-fold more in med mal insurance in Philly than I would to practice in Dallas. I have no desire here to categorically bash lawyers or claim that most civil suits are frivolous. However there is certainly a specific breed of ambulance chasing scumbag that flourishes in my hometown. Their modus operandi is not carefully developing the merits of a case but rather haphazardly throwing every conceivable allegation out there to see if something will stick. Some of the med mal filings I've seen are laughably nonsensical to someone with a real understanding of the specialty practice. Likewise, there might be some hidden substance to this particular aviation case, but it's certainly not easy to conjecture what it might be. My physician who does my medical...has long since stopped his OBYN/OB practice....it seems after delivering 10,000 babies in Sacramentos poorer communities ,the legal professional has found him incompetent and liable for delivering babies with birth defects.He has always accepted patients from all walks of life since 1980 when I met him.Sadly,enough of his patents are regular street drug users ,heavy alcohol dependence etc with predictable complications to birthing mothers.Local law firms believe these unfortunate patients deserve to be compensated for his Pro bono treatment.Well of course ,insurance became too costly,similar to poor communities in Mississippi and Alabama with similar legal outcomes.The result...he is seeing more and more emergency room visits of poorer patients attempting home delivery.He not being sued anymore though...those lawyers have moved on to prosecuting these same mothers for child endangerment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted June 12, 2018 Report Share Posted June 12, 2018 53 minutes ago, tommy123 said: Did anyone consider that the suit is being filled in PA because Lycoming is in PA? Lycoming is in Williamsport PA, roughly 130sm away from Philadelphia. The case is in Philadelphia CITY court. I looked carefully through the full list of plaintiffs and defendants and couldn't find a connection to Philly, but it must exist. That is not idle conjecture on my part. Finding clever ways to access the Philly city juror pool is a widely known strategy that sustains the tort law industry here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted June 12, 2018 Report Share Posted June 12, 2018 You guys are talented, and artistic writers.... Interesting points from all. I have worked.... in a McDonalds, at GeneralFoods/MaxwellHouse, a cup manufacturing site, a lid manufacturer, and sold million dollar cup printers to people that make coffee cups.... I am a big fan of coffee. I didn’t get any of the literary skills that you guys have... but, I did learn one thing... McDs and other restaurants do like to serve really hot coffee... Customers like to put cold milk and cream in their coffee... some experienced customers would order it with one or two ice cubes... really surprising to the young kid working at McDs... To keep all the customers happy, the hotter the coffee is, the more cold cream it can take, before customers complain about getting a cold fresh cup of coffee.... (yes, hotter water does extract more coffee out of the beans, faster...) If the end user doesn’t use all the additives, they just have to wait a little longer before enjoying that tasty cup o Joe. Some oddities I did notice... the cup manufacturer and the lid manufacturer can often be two separate companies... trying to match a written standard... expect a lot of mismatch happening when one styrene lid is used for both paper and styrofoam cups... The lawsuit changed the way I (as a consumer) Test things before relying on them to work correctly... it is easy to not get the lid on right. Just last week the lid was on right, but did not seal completely causing a drip on my shirt... What has changed since those days? Cup holders! No squeezing a cup between your legs... you can’t escape the tragedy fast enough. Disrobing in public isn’t a natural response, when seconds count... Now, call Mooney and order fancy cup holders to go with that pilot side door...! PP thoughts only. i like my coffee, dark roasted, black, columbian AAs... Best served in a SS mug acquired from the Mooney Summit Best regards, -a- 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradp Posted June 12, 2018 Report Share Posted June 12, 2018 17 hours ago, Igor_U said: I will not comment on a lawsuit but just a fact that good coffee (or tea) requires nothing less then boiling water - 212° F. All of my British friends complain about a quality of tea in US restaurants and that being a main reason... I tend to agree but I'm a coffee drinker. Igor tea steeping is optimal just under boiling. Say 200 F. Most folks would say that 180F is the optimal coffee extraction temperature. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tspear Posted June 12, 2018 Report Share Posted June 12, 2018 3 hours ago, bradp said: Igor tea steeping is optimal just under boiling. Say 200 F. Most folks would say that 180F is the optimal coffee extraction temperature. Well, actually it depends on the kind of tea. This is going on memory: Black actually the water should be "boiling" which means it is close to 210 with a little residual hitting the magical boiling point temp. Green tea should be close to 190. White tea is close to 170. All of which comes back to the old lesson; black tea to bring to the kettle, green tea you bring the kettle to the tea, white tea you bring the kettle to serving tray and pour there. Coffee has the same kinds of rules, but since I do not drink coffee, I do not know them. Tim 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldguy Posted June 12, 2018 Report Share Posted June 12, 2018 Does anyone else recall the book "The Death of Common Sense" from the mid to late 1990's? Just saying. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tspear Posted June 12, 2018 Report Share Posted June 12, 2018 3 hours ago, Oldguy said: Does anyone else recall the book "The Death of Common Sense" from the mid to late 1990's? Just saying. No, I am pretty sure common sense died even further back in history. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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