Shop breaks a part

[BillC]

Wondering what your opinions are:

I have my Mooney in the shop here in Florida for a small seep in the right wing. The mechanic called to say when he was ‘banging’ on the top access cover (with the external fuel gauge) to remove it and, the needle broke off the inside the glass. He says the company is not responsible for damage caused during maintenance. My first question was “Why would you be banging on the access cover?” He said he needed to. In my own personal experience as an A&P, I’ve removed many fuel tank cover plates and have never had to bang anything. I didn’t explain to him how to safely remove these covers. I was not happy at the time so I’m letting the weekend go by to cool off and address this on Monday with the shop manager. The gauge is about $150.00 USD.

so.....should I escalate this to upper management or is this the way maintenance shops operate these days.

 

[carusoam]

Bill,

I think I have you covered....

 

Come back another day....

After you’ve had time to think about it...

 

Do you have the right person working on it?

read up on how access panels are removed and put back... thin plastic knives that get into the tight space between wing and panel... not bending anything.... proper solvents and really proper sealant to be able to open this panel again...

The wing top gauges handle sunlight like crap? Mine got 15 years and then the clarity went away and the needle broke on one of mine... swapped out with a new pair at annual one year...

What really happened?

Ask a few questions about how and what tools and materials he is going to use...

Check the price on those devices, are they really $150 bucks?

Call Lasar and by a new set.

If you are staying with this mechanic, it would be great if he could install the replacement parts that you just bought...

 

Its called working together...

I’m fortunate to have the same mechanical team for the last two decades.... $150 is a pretty small number overall...

 

These are the same people that said they like to work with owners doing owner assisted annuals.... because the owners generate more work...  

They were quite welcoming.  I created plenty of work...

I was pretty good about asking a million questions, and breaking things I was told to be careful with....

They educated me at no cost... three man days worth every year....  

This is probably called....  getting the most for your money...

 

If the gauge or needle isn’t broken. It can be removed pretty easily. It is held in place with silicone.  Can it be fixed for less than a new gauge? They are simple cheesy plastic devices.  A magnetic pointer mounted above the real hardware that has a float and matching magnet on it...

 

Let it sit... come back again...

 

The last thing I would want to do is aggravate the guy working on my plane... I would run out of mechanical support pretty quickly after that... and make today’s project take a whole lot longer...

 

My work experience.... Is the mechanic charging by the hour?  Keeping track of his own time?  

If he doesn’t want to work on your project what happens next...?

When your panels are all sealed properly, a decade from now, you are reading the gauges on the wing... seeing the tanks are full, the sky is blue, and you are ready to taxi to the run-up area... are you going to remember the day somebody broke the cheesy $5 plastic device?

 

In a perfect world.... this stuff doesn’t happen...  

In a perfect world... A Mooney would be diesel powered.... turbine anyone...?  

Best regards,

-a-

[Yetti]

There is no banging to get a tank cover off.  That shop is fired. 

[BillC]

Thanks for the replies. Tony, as I said, when I was an A&P I put tape around the outside of the panel and used a heat gun to carefully warm the panel then used a sharp putty knife to work around the panel two or three times before lifting it off. NEVER had to hammer anything to remove it. Just needed patience.  Also I did ask a lot of questions. I was quoted a price of $850.00 USD. The mechanic said he was told it was time and materials. I would NEVER agree to that. That being said, the mechanic has never worked on wet fuel tanks before although the shop forman told me they had plenty of experience with them. Apparently he put the most junior mechanic on the job. 

The question is......Is the shop responsible for replacing the broken gauge?

[gsxrpilot]

That gauge is $40. I just replaced one of mine. I’d still fire the shop.

[BillC]

25 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

That gauge is $40. I just replaced one of mine. I’d still fire the shop.

Thanks...where did you find it? Just found LASAR price is 119.06

https://lasar.com/product/dial-face-880024-009/

[Yooper Rocketman]

I’d be sitting down with the manager when the job’s completed.  No sense making an issue before then.  Get the $40 gauge Paul noted and deal with it when picking it up.   

[carusoam]

Summary...

1) The OP is familiar with the work’s detail...

2) So far... The shop didn’t tell much of the facts... experience level of the worker, management that didn’t oversee the worker, and the price of parts...

3) Probably need a legal opinion to tell if they should be paying for the broken part.  But, the shop led off with “its OK for us to break stuff....”

4) Tom has generously shared his extensive Customer Service background on how to get to where you want to be...

5) The Customer and the shop both need to be happy in the end...

6) Paul may have used his local MSC to get the parts... he has been working with Laura? Since they opened their shop....

 

Bill,

what is your need to work with this shop...?

How are your open communication skills, with added stress tossed on?  (Always helps to have a sales background, technical background, legal back ground, etc...)

I’m confident that you get through this with minimal scars...

Planning on checking up along the way...?

• Want to see inside the tank while it’s open?  
• Check on the cleanliness of the panel before it gets sealed back in place...
• make sure they have the proper solvents and sealants
• Expect some paint to go missing around the edges... have a plan for that too...

PP thoughts only... had my access panels resealed, and gauges replaced, the paint could have been handled better...

Best regards,

-a-

[gsxrpilot]

Thanks...where did you find it? Just found LASAR price is 119.06
https://lasar.com/product/dial-face-880024-009/

From Laura at SWTA who got it from Mooney, I believe.

[RLCarter]

A hammer?...WOW.....@BillC I would go in and talk to the shop manager and ask how this happened and see how much smoke they try and blow up your butt, stay calm and let them explain what happened, then ask to go look at your aircraft, chances are more than the fuel gauge is damaged, go back the their office before you disclose your an A&P and then take control of the conversation. I would have to get a really really really warm and fuzzy feeling before I would let them do much more. 

[xcrmckenna]

I’m not a level headed person when it comes to people messing up my things due to their ignorance. I expect shops to treat my cars and plane like they would if it was their grandmothers. Not like it was their junk sitting in a college dorm.

And using a hammer to wedge the putty knife between the panels is way out of line “at least that’s what I’m imagining”. There is a good chance the paint at minimum is messed up to go with your broken fuel gauge.

I’ve found you need to yell as someone that gets paid to be yelled at. Going off on the low man on the totem pole doesn’t get your bill lowered or your things fixed. I would talk to the top guy they give you first, then ask to speak to their boss.

I don’t know many shops that damage an item and tell you about it that wouldn’t pay to fix it. Normally it’s the shops that say that was already broken are the ones you have to fight with.

I’m sure if you talk to a person high enough up you will get your gauge fixed. You might have to yell at a few people and have them realize they don’t get paid enough to be yelled at before it happens. And they might be banking on you will just bend over and take it.

Another note, if the shop is saying they don’t pay for damage they cause, that means they break a lot of things!!!!




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[BillC]

6 hours ago, carusoam said:

Summary...

1) The OP is familiar with the work’s detail...

2) So far... The shop didn’t tell much of the facts... experience level of the worker, management that didn’t oversee the worker, and the price of parts...

3) Probably need a legal opinion to tell if they should be paying for the broken part.  But, the shop led off with “its OK for us to break stuff....”

4) Tom has generously shared his extensive Customer Service background on how to get to where you want to be...

5) The Customer and the shop both need to be happy in the end...

6) Paul may have used his local MSC to get the parts... he has been working with Laura? Since they opened their shop....

 

Bill,

what is your need to work with this shop...?

How are your open communication skills, with added stress tossed on?  (Always helps to have a sales background, technical background, legal back ground, etc...)

I’m confident that you get through this with minimal scars...

Planning on checking up along the way...?

• Want to see inside the tank while it’s open?  
• Check on the cleanliness of the panel before it gets sealed back in place...
• make sure they have the proper solvents and sealants
• Expect some paint to go missing around the edges... have a plan for that too...

PP thoughts only... had my access panels resealed, and gauges replaced, the paint could have been handled better...

Best regards,

-a-

Anthony,

   I was getting ready to return North for the summer. I thought it was a good idea to have the tank repaired while still here in Florida. They assured me they had the capability to do the work. Besides, they are the only shop on the field. After almost three weeks waiting they finally pulled the airplane in the shop. I almost called to cancel the work because of the wait but they started it before I could call. I wish I didn’t delay. I just had a hip replaced and wasn’t on top of it like I should have been. Otherwise I would have flown over to Wet-wingologists in KFLL. Unfortunately, I guess there will be some scars. Not looking forward to seeing the condition of the panels or the paint.

Their shop is always full of airplanes. From singles to jets. I felt confident they were capable of doing a thorough and professional job.

Anyway, tomorrow will tell. Thanks for the input.

Bill

[Hank]

I'm the yelling kind when things like this happen.

But I've watched my brother get really good results by staying calm and talking persuasively in a low voice, after pushing me away because I was ready to yell and scream. Can't say that I don't yell and scream any more, but it has given me pause to think and I try to emulate his example (my success rate is variable, but the results are often better when I make my case with a level head rather than a red face and bulging veins . . . . ).

But after making your case for personal responsibility and fixing what you break, do instruct them in the proper way to do things.

I also like Edison at Wet Wingologists. He did a great job resealing my tanks several years ago.

[Robert C.]

A few weeks ago I took my Ovation to my avionics shop for what turned out to be a faulty magnetometer. They replaced it and didn't realize they needed a new bootblock software update from Mooney (per a published SB). Next thing they knew they had "bricked" the new magnetometer. They sheepishly admitted it, got a new one from Garmin and installed it (correctly this time) and didn't charge me a penny for the extra work or materials or GMU44. That's one of the reasons this shop has a good reputation in this area.

Humans make mistakes. You've been getting good advice on the merits of using a reasonable approach in resolving this  I know I would follow it. If your's doesn't hold you harmless for a rookie mistake then I agree with those who've suggested finding a new shop after this is all done with.

 

 

[gsxrpilot]

Airplanes are unique compared to other equipment in that they're usually old and therefore require more maintenance, they're stupid expensive, maintenance introduces a fair amount of risk, and as owners, we're barely allowed to touch them other than to just fly them.  Therefore it seems to me that one of the central tenets of airplane ownership has to be a close relationship with a trusted shop/mechanic.

Obviously shit happens away from home. And that might require a strangers hands to be under her cowl. But I'd probably at least ask JD if he'd make a house call to go get her back in the air.

 

[StevenL757]

On 5/12/2018 at 11:10 PM, BillC said:

Wondering what your opinions are:

I have my Mooney in the shop here in Florida for a small seep in the right wing. The mechanic called to say when he was ‘banging’ on the top access cover (with the external fuel gauge) to remove it and, the needle broke off the inside the glass. He says the company is not responsible for damage caused during maintenance. My first question was “Why would you be banging on the access cover?” He said he needed to. In my own personal experience as an A&P, I’ve removed many fuel tank cover plates and have never had to bang anything. I didn’t explain to him how to safely remove these covers. I was not happy at the time so I’m letting the weekend go by to cool off and address this on Monday with the shop manager. The gauge is about $150.00 USD.

so.....should I escalate this to upper management or is this the way maintenance shops operate these days.

I've had a couple of top and bottom inspection covers removed to do work.  Agree they aren't the easiest things to remove due to the sealant, but by no means did the mechanic have to pound on anything to get them out.

I certainly hope this shop believes their reputation is worth more than a $150 part, and that they do the right thing by offering to cover it.  You handled it appropriately by assuming positive intent and taking the weekend to think it over before reacting, and do believe you should be presenting this to their management.

Steve

[Guest]

Yelling and screaming will only prove to be counter productive, and at my place would get you shown the door until you calmed down.  A $100 part is chump change for the shop.  Over the years I’ve eaten shit sandwiches which were worse than that in cost, while I didn’t enjoy them, I did in the interest in good customer relations.

Sit down and have a calm conversation, if the maintainer was newer/ younger it wasn’t entirely his fault, where was the supervisor?

Clarence

[xcrmckenna]

Yelling and screaming will only prove to be counter productive, and at my place would get you shown the door until you calmed down.  A $100 part is chump change for the shop.  Over the years I’ve eaten shit sandwiches which were worse than that in cost, while I didn’t enjoy them, I did in the interest in good customer relations.
Sit down and have a calm conversation, if the maintainer was newer/ younger it wasn’t entirely his fault, where was the supervisor?
Clarence

Staying calm is the best way to go. But when you have people telling you they are not going to replace a part they broke it’s time to talk to someone that gets paid to get yelled at even if you don’t yell at them. No matter the cost of the part. Like I said a respected shop would fix the part and never make an issue about.


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[jetdriven]

On 5/13/2018 at 12:21 AM, BillC said:

Thanks for the replies. Tony, as I said, when I was an A&P I put tape around the outside of the panel and used a heat gun to carefully warm the panel then used a sharp putty knife to work around the panel two or three times before lifting it off. NEVER had to hammer anything to remove it. Just needed patience.  Also I did ask a lot of questions. I was quoted a price of $850.00 USD. The mechanic said he was told it was time and materials. I would NEVER agree to that. That being said, the mechanic has never worked on wet fuel tanks before although the shop forman told me they had plenty of experience with them. Apparently he put the most junior mechanic on the job. 

The question is......Is the shop responsible for replacing the broken gauge?

YES

[jetdriven]

On 5/13/2018 at 1:07 PM, Hank said:

I'm the yelling kind when things like this happen.

But I've watched my brother get really good results by staying calm and talking persuasively in a low voice, after pushing me away because I was ready to yell and scream. Can't say that I don't yell and scream any more, but it has given me pause to think and I try to emulate his example (my success rate is variable, but the results are often better when I make my case with a level head rather than a red face and bulging veins . . . . ).

But after making your case for personal responsibility and fixing what you break, do instruct them in the proper way to do things.

I also like Edison at Wet Wingologists. He did a great job resealing my tanks several years ago.

I am too, but my old lady is like your brother. I feel better right away, ruining their day like they ruined mine, and she makes me feel better later knowing we won the long game.   i guess which makes you feel better, sooner or later is key.  Sometimes, writing the check with F*** wells fargo in the notes is sufficient.

[jetdriven]

11 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Yelling and screaming will only prove to be counter productive, and at my place would get you shown the door until you calmed down.  A $100 part is chump change for the shop.  Over the years I’ve eaten shit sandwiches which were worse than that in cost, while I didn’t enjoy them, I did in the interest in good customer relations.

Sit down and have a calm conversation, if the maintainer was newer/ younger it wasn’t entirely his fault, where was the supervisor?

Clarence

I think you guys ate a few grand in labor r/r'ing a Bravo engine a few hours after overhaul because the engine mount had a groove in it requiring repair, which you missed. You did the right thing. v

[Guest]

6 hours ago, jetdriven said:

I think you guys ate a few grand in labor r/r'ing a Bravo engine a few hours after overhaul because the engine mount had a groove in it requiring repair, which you missed. You did the right thing. v

Close, we removed and reinstalled a J model engine 18 months after we painted as part of an engine change.

Clarence

[steingar]

I discovered some years ago that loosing one's temper is actually a face-loosing measure in most Eastern societies.  I've tried to keep myself on a more even keel, and am proud that I never once raised my voice to a subordinate for any reason.  I think calm cool reasoning wins the day every time.

If a shop broke something on my aircraft that carelessly I'd expect them to make it right. 

[RLCarter]

A yelling match generally only raises your blood pressure and does little to solve the problem, the fact that the shop called the customer after the damage says something. 

[MARZ]

The big key here is that the OP stated the mechanic called him - not the shop manager or owner.   A quick civil discussion with the shop manager may reveal that he is unaware of the situation.  If he is, then I would commence the escallations.