I'll switch to Aeroshell 100W now

[Tommy]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

Yes I said it in no uncertain terms that it's safe but it doesn't mean it's good (well at least that's how I interpreted)!

Tell me, if it's good or do absolutely no harm to mix the oil then why he recommends only in emergency top-off?

 

Why don't you ask him why he said it was perfectly fine to use any oil but then used the word "emergency" for top off?  I think that word was inserted unnecessarily. I don't mix oils but I'll top off with whatever is in front of me. Unless you can find some reason other than one guys opinion he refuted twice in the same article, I'd say that was prudent practice. 

I don't know but he is the top guru at Philips so if I am going choose side between this guy and you on issues relating to engine oil.... hmmm..

I stated that AFAIK it's not a good idea to mix oil. You said it's an OWT so I did a bit of search and found this article. Unfortunately it was vague and ambigous. 

But sure still beats you for not actually presenting any evidence to back up your claim.

[XXX]

Molasses can be substituted for aircraft oil in extreme emergencies. Saw this on a Gilligans Island episode.

[rbridges]

1 hour ago, Chupacabra said:

Molasses can be substituted for aircraft oil in extreme emergencies. Saw this on a Gilligans Island episode.

OMG, now you're going to start the molasses vs syrup debate.  It just never ends.

[XXX]

1 minute ago, rbridges said:

OMG, now you're going to start the molasses vs syrup debate.  It just never ends.

...or Mary Ann vs Ginger?

[rbridges]

16 minutes ago, Chupacabra said:

...or Mary Ann vs Ginger?

at the risk of thread drift, I'll take Mary Ann and syrup.  

[Bob - S50]

19 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

For decades I've been running expensive Elite oil. Last year I decided to go with AeroShell 15W50 with camguard since it didn't seem less good and I can get it much cheaper. However, I've read more articles saying that 100W may be better. Now I read this from Blackstone labs and I think I've made up my mind. The results isn't a screaming endorsement for any one oil but it certainly indicates that more expensive oils are not any better. In the winter I may just keep a spoon in the plane to get it out though.

https://gallery.mailchimp.com/f641390cba42169db49e0cd6e/files/e3ff8058-394c-43fd-bd81-56593f7c55a8/Aug_17_AC.01.pdf

 

-Robert

 

We switched from Shell w100 in the summer and w80 in the winter to Phillips XC20w/50.  No more trying to decide which one to put in at the next oil change.  And it's cheaper.  If you are just looking to save money, try going to this website:

Petroleum Service Company

I buy 2 cases at a time to minimize my shipping costs.  Even being shipped from Pennsylvania all the way to Washington (the real one, not DC) it only costs me about $135.  That's $5.63/quart.

We use Camguard with it to help it stick to the innards for corrosion protection.

[Danb]

Thank for the response Paul. I keep my oil decisions easy, been using Shell multi since the 1980,s, always preheat when cool and not in my hanger, pay attention to temps in flight adjusting as necessary, never shock cooled etc. I believe temperature control in all aspects from start up to shut down is vital. Never needed to replace a cylinder or needed major engine repairs, I believe temperature management is the primary reason.

[jetdriven]

11 hours ago, Tommy said:

I don't know but he is the top guru at Philips so if I am going choose side between this guy and you on issues relating to engine oil.... hmmm..

I stated that AFAIK it's not a good idea to mix oil. You said it's an OWT so I did a bit of search and found this article. Unfortunately it was vague and ambigous. 

But sure still beats you for not actually presenting any evidence to back up your claim.

Who is Walt Silveira at Philips? The top guy?  Look again and report back.  A product technical manager.  Woohoo.

Like I said, he says twice its perfectly fine, and then throws that "emergency top off" line in there. The next guy is an engine builder and says even mixing AD and non-AD oil is ok. The third is a pilot who doesnt have any technical info, but it "feels strange" so he carries his own oil.  I didn't see that Walt Silviera had an A&P or a pilot certificate, I looked it up.  Look me up if you wish.

The whole article is pretty slim on data and long on feelings and anecdotal data.  Is that the only thing you could find?  Meanwhile the piston fleet has logged hundreds of millions of flight hours without any evidence that switching or mixing aviation piston oils causes damage, much less an engine failure. I'll take that over Walt Silveira.  You pick your star to hitch your wagon to.

  I have data, I switched back and forth between 100W and XC20W50 for a couple years and the oil cooler and the engine internals leave over a quart of oil in the system, I know this because I filled a dry, factory fresh motor and drained it out 2 hours later, there's a quart missing. I didnt kill anyone.  I've added the leftover 100W to 20W50 and vice versa. Like I said before, I dont make it practice, but I dont lose sleep over it either.

You have a remarkable propensity to pick some random statement from reams of web pages and articles, to make some false hypothesis about how things are, instead of how they really are. This mixing oils thing, aircraft tires, Corrosion X causing intergranular corrosion. Do yuorself and all of us a favor, in the face of overwhelming evidence that your theory is bunk, drop it, dont press on with the indefensible with an ever-higher standard or proof to refute your incorrect theory.

 

[PTK]

Yeup!...another case of a weekend warrior lecturing a seasoned airline pilot who is a walking encyclopedia full of knowledge and who shares it selfishly! Instead of learning and saying thank you he lectures him!

The internet never ceases to amaze me!

[201er]

16 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

I have data, I switched back and forth between 100W and XC20W50 for a couple years and the oil cooler and the engine internals leave over a quart of oil in the system, I know this because I filled a dry, factory fresh motor and drained it out 2 hours later, there's a quart missing. I didnt kill anyone.  I've added the leftover 100W to 20W50 and vice versa.

And this is all coming from the guy who's factory engine is burning how much oil not too long since overhaul? 

Now I on the other hand have been using 20W50 with Camguard exclusively since overhaul and I have more hours and less blow by than you. How's that for evidence? 

Edited July 26, 2017 by 201er

[Mooneymite]

All this and still no mention of MMO.  This is truly a sophisticated readership.

Of course someone did mention molasses.  

[Tommy]

2 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Who is Walt Silveira at Philips? The top guy?  Look again and report back.  A product technical manager.  Woohoo.

Like I said, he says twice its perfectly fine, and then throws that "emergency top off" line in there. The next guy is an engine builder and says even mixing AD and non-AD oil is ok. The third is a pilot who doesnt have any technical info, but it "feels strange" so he carries his own oil.  I didn't see that Walt Silviera had an A&P or a pilot certificate, I looked it up.  Look me up if you wish.

The whole article is pretty slim on data and long on feelings and anecdotal data.  Is that the only thing you could find?  Meanwhile the piston fleet has logged hundreds of millions of flight hours without any evidence that switching or mixing aviation piston oils causes damage, much less an engine failure. I'll take that over Walt Silveira.  You pick your star to hitch your wagon to.

  I have data, I switched back and forth between 100W and XC20W50 for a couple years and the oil cooler and the engine internals leave over a quart of oil in the system, I know this because I filled a dry, factory fresh motor and drained it out 2 hours later, there's a quart missing. I didnt kill anyone.  I've added the leftover 100W to 20W50 and vice versa. Like I said before, I dont make it practice, but I dont lose sleep over it either.

You have a remarkable propensity to pick some random statement from reams of web pages and articles, to make some false hypothesis about how things are, instead of how they really are. This mixing oils thing, aircraft tires, Corrosion X causing intergranular corrosion. Do yuorself and all of us a favor, in the face of overwhelming evidence that your theory is bunk, drop it, dont press on with the indefensible with an ever-higher standard or proof to refute your incorrect theory.

 

You have data? For couple of years? On one or two engines? Maybe what, 10 or 20 oil changes? You called that data? 

Meanwhile Philips sold probably half a million liter of this thing + deals with hundreds of customers + conduction product R&D EVERY SINGLE DAY.

You have the delusional propensity of believing yourself being the expert of everything in aviation and offer nothing but your own opinion and experience when others including myself took the effort to do researches and ALWAYS give proper references to articles so that even I was going to quote the articles "sporadically" like you had accused me of doing, people can still read the article in its entirety.

But, hours and days later, I am still waiting for the references to your claims 1)  that mixing oil is good / fine, 2) that FCIII is 3 or 4 times better than cheap Air Trac, and 3) that structural damage caused by CIC is nothing compared to corrosion.

[jetdriven]

6 minutes ago, Tommy said:

You have data? For couple of years? On one or two engines? Maybe what, 10 or 20 oil changes? You called that data? 

Meanwhile Philips sold probably half a million liter of this thing + deals with hundreds of customers + conduction product R&D EVERY SINGLE DAY.

You have the delusional propensity of believing yourself being the expert of everything in aviation and offer nothing but your own opinion and experience when others including myself took the effort to do researches and ALWAYS give proper references to articles so that even I was going to quote the articles "sporadically" like you had accused me of doing, people can still read the article in its entirety.

But, hours and days later, I am still waiting for the references to your claims 1)  that mixing oil is good / fine, 2) that FCIII is 3 or 4 times better than cheap Air Trac, and 3) that structural damage caused by CIC is nothing compared to corrosion.

The article you posted said mixing any aircraft piston oil is fine three times, and twice by the esteemed Mr. Silveira.  Call him up and ask if they have any documented engine damage caused by mixing piston oils.    Until then, I would assume its safe since nobody can produce any evidence otherwise.    Bring me one case of engine damage caused by mixing oil, otherwise your hypothesis is total crap.

Maybe I'm delusional but I stick with the operator data backed by  millions of flight hours.  I may not be shit, but I got several thousand hours operating these things and I also have hundreds of hours working in shops on them as well and an A&P to back that up.  Where is your experience?   You just sound like some troll kid in his parents basement on his computer stirring up fake controversy there there isnt any.  I just dont get it.

The FC3 is a stronger tire and wont cause damage to your airplane with a hard landing.   Not all tires are the same, and anyone with any sophistication would know this after 30 minutes of searching on the internet, or visiting an A&P shop and look at some tires removed from service and feel them yourself.  You claimed they are 4 times more expensive when theyre actually like twice, and the Desser retreads are cheaper.  I didnt like the Aero Trainer, it felt like a cheap flimsy tire when it went on, but thats all they had and I needed a tire in Sedona AZ.  My hesitation was later proven out when my airplane was damaged by a hard but acceptable landing.

As far as Corrosion-X causing filiform corrosion, sir, you are from a different planet.  Enough said.

Im through feeding trolls, nobody can help you.

[Yooper Rocketman]

Saw on interesting presentation by Mike Busch this morning about runnng past TBO.  Seems the hard data shows serious engine failure rates are significantly higher in the first 500 hours after overhaul than any other time frame of the engine's life.  The engine time reviewed went well past TBO on the charts without ever getting back up to the rate of newly rebuilt engines.  Amazingly when I toured the Continental Engine Factory last fall and discussed my 400 past TBO engine in the Rocket, EVERY tech or manager I spoke with said " keep running it!"

Anyway, oils came up during the presentation and he recommends Aeroshell W100 and Camguard as the best oil for present engines and avgas ( with lead), providing you can work within the ambient temps conducive for straight weight oil.  Phillips 20/50 XC was his recommendation for multi viscosity for good reason.  The Aeroshell multi viscosity is 50% synthetic, which would be his first choice if not for leaded fuel.   Only petroleum based oils will suspend lead so the lead scavenging ability of Aeroshell multi weight is half that of Phillips 20/50XC.   As far as W100x, he felt the additive package in Camguard was better than that and using two additives (W100X AND Camguard) was of no benefit   

As usual, Mike presented hard facts to back his presentation. I highly recommend finding this one on the EAA website where he has something like 70 forums on record.  

Tom

[N201MKTurbo]

I've been using 100W in my engines sense 1984. I'll change to a multiweight if I'm going to somewhere below freezing just so its easier to start the engine. Sometimes I will get a preheat, but if there is none available I'll usually get it started.

I've never seen any signs of wear or corrosion in my engines.

But then I live in Arizona. We don't have corrosion, so we can put any crap oil in and it will be fine.

[peevee]

5 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I've been using 100W in my engines sense 1984. I'll change to a multiweight if I'm going to somewhere below freezing just so its easier to start the engine. Sometimes I will get a preheat, but if there is none available I'll usually get it started.

I've never seen any signs of wear or corrosion in my engines.

But then I live in Arizona. We don't have corrosion, so we can put any crap oil in and it will be fine.

we have a good reiff heater and get the engine good and warm, I never go anywhere in the winter overnight so it hasn't been a problem with w100, but I'll probably change to w80 this fall just because. We run camguard as well, no telling if it's doing us any good. We're getting the shell from a wholesaler for something like $72 a case, can't beat that. The guys that bought those little gas generators last winter had the right idea.

[M20F]

I use the blood of virgins in mine. 

[ArtVandelay]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I've been using 100W in my engines sense 1984. I'll change to a multiweight if I'm going to somewhere below freezing just so its easier to start the engine. Sometimes I will get a preheat, but if there is none available I'll usually get it started.

This, and I don't used camguard because I flew 139 times in the past 12 months so I don't need it, but I do use it in my boat and generator engines that go for long periods of non use.

[Tommy]

3 hours ago, jetdriven said:

The article you posted said mixing any aircraft piston oil is fine three times, and twice by the esteemed Mr. Silveira.  Call him up and ask if they have any documented engine damage caused by mixing piston oils.    Until then, I would assume its safe since nobody can produce any evidence otherwise.    Bring me one case of engine damage caused by mixing oil, otherwise your hypothesis is total crap.

Maybe I'm delusional but I stick with the operator data backed by  millions of flight hours.  I may not be shit, but I got several thousand hours operating these things and I also have hundreds of hours working in shops on them as well and an A&P to back that up.  Where is your experience?   You just sound like some troll kid in his parents basement on his computer stirring up fake controversy there there isnt any.  I just dont get it.

The FC3 is a stronger tire and wont cause damage to your airplane with a hard landing.   Not all tires are the same, and anyone with any sophistication would know this after 30 minutes of searching on the internet, or visiting an A&P shop and look at some tires removed from service and feel them yourself.  You claimed they are 4 times more expensive when theyre actually like twice, and the Desser retreads are cheaper.  I didnt like the Aero Trainer, it felt like a cheap flimsy tire when it went on, but thats all they had and I needed a tire in Sedona AZ.  My hesitation was later proven out when my airplane was damaged by a hard but acceptable landing.

As far as Corrosion-X causing filiform corrosion, sir, you are from a different planet.  Enough said.

Im through feeding trolls, nobody can help you.

It says it's safe. It does not say it's "fine" which is what you asserted. Bring me one evidence of a research to say that's it is completely fine otherwise your hypothesis is also "total crap". 

You have thousands operating, hundreds of hours working plus ONE A&P to back you up? WOW. Sorry to rain on your parade but this Phillips guy has access to data collected from million+ hours of operation, from thousands of hours working in labs and shops, and from hundreds of A&P all around the world.  What makes you think that you know more than his guy when it comes to engine oil?

You just sounded like some hot shot intern in the major teaching hospital that I work and teach who likes to tell the head of plastic surgery how to suture.

I trust this guy because I realize how little I know when it comes to oil and I believe that he probably has some evidences to show that mixing oil may cause minute damage to the engine? If not, why didn't he just come out and say it's all fine. Why did he say only for emergency top up only? I am in complete agreement with his statement (which is also what my old A&P said and he had 45 years of experience running an engine work shop with 15 junior A&Ps). If you think his approach is "OWT." Shouldn't you be the one writing to him and seek clarification or data? 

"The FC3 is a stronger tire and wont cause damage to your airplane with a hard landing" How can you say FC3 is a stronger tire when their loading limits are the same? Where is your evidence beyond your own observation and experience?  I actually wrote an email to Specialty asking about the bottom loading on Aerotrainer. I don't know why I need to since Mooney didn't specify the bottom loading. And would you mind sharing - with proper reference - what you had found after 30 minutes of sophisticated internet searching?

Is it really that difficult to get into your head that one or two mishaps with your own tires MEANS VERY LITTLE when equal number of pilots have good experiences with Air Trac or Trainer? 

Is it really that difficult to get into your head that just because you (or your uncle and cat) mixed oil a few times in your life and your engine made it to TBO also MEANS VERY LITTLE when someone else might have done the same but didn't fare so well? 

The world doesn't revolve around you, mate.

I know how smart and experienced you are but there will always be people much more clever and knowledgeable than you and me.

With Corrosion X: again, I gave you the reference so if you disagree, you are more than welcome to write to the researchers - ie. qualified metallurgists / scientists who spent years if not decades studying this phenomenon - and tell them you know better because you have 1000+ hour flying and 100+ hours of shop time.

Don't you dare to think that you can just go around and belittle people's work and not get some sort of retribution, my friend...

 

 

[jetdriven]

You're not my friend. Like I said, you're hopeless. Stick to the hospital and I will stick to the cockpit and airplane shop. 

1.So I see you can't find a case of mixed engine oils causing harm whatsoever. 

2.you clearly can't distinguish between rated loads and bottoming loads on aircraft tires, and ignore the latter as a factor or a possibility  in aircraft damage from hard landings  

3. you think that corrosion X causes intergranular corrosion. 

Got it.  

its easy to see what kind of person you are. 

One final couple of questions, then I'm hitting the ignore button. Do you even have a pilots license? Do you own an airplane? 

Edited July 27, 2017 by jetdriven

[Tommy]

You see, @jetdriven we all made statements based on our experience and what we read. Sometimes we are right. Sometimes we are wrong. But one thing for sure is that we will get challenged every now and then.

But our similarities stop there. Realizing that I might be wrong and I ain't really much of an expert, I go away and do some researches then come back and share with others (with proper references). 

You, on the other hand, try to beat up the person who disagrees with nothing but "I know so much more than you and the experts" attitude then resorting to tactics like calling names "little troll kids" "hopless" or asking people to "leave the forums" 

Does it really give you that much butt-hurt when you get challenged? 

 

[jetdriven]

You are the one with the controversial statements. I merlely called bullshit on them. And I'm still calling bullshit on them. When you change an aircraft tire or work on one or actually lay hands o the he stuff you are professing to know so much with your "research" we can have an intelligent discussion. 

I don't think you're a pilot  or an aircraft owner 

Im through explaining heaven to bears. 

Leave me alone. Go antagonize someone else.  Enjoy your world. 

Edited July 27, 2017 by jetdriven

[Yetti]

If TExas had a winter I would think about switching to a mulit grade... But we dont.  W100

[Tommy]

18 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

You're not my friend.

Somebody cry me a river....

1) So I see you can't find a case of mixed engine oils causing harm whatsoever. - I can't but it was cautioned by Phillips Technical Manager. 

2) you clearly can't distinguish between rated loads and bottoming loads on aircraft tires, and ignore the latter as a factor or a possibility  in aircraft damage from hard landings   - Neither can Mooney engineers...

3). you think that corrosion X causes intergranular corrosion. - Not me, the researchers did. I gave you the reference. Have you read the entire paper? 

Got it.  

Great!

its easy to see what kind of person you are. 

Yes the inquisitive and humble kind.

One final couple of questions, then I'm hitting the ignore button. Do you even have a pilots license? Do you own an airplane? 

No I am just a small town medical doctor and I never flown nor owned a plane. But what do they have anything to do with the discussions? Let's see, I have a technical manager from Phillips to tell me about the oil. I have Mooney / Speciality Air to tell me about the "bottom loading." I have CASA researchers tell me about CICs...

Even if I am the chief pilot of Emirates or the sultan of Brunei who owns hundreds of planes, would I know more about the oils, tires, and CICs? 

Unlikely...

 

[Tommy]

19 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

You are the one with the controversial statements. I merlely called bullshit on them. And I'm still calling bullshit on them. When you change an aircraft tire or work on one or actually lay hands o the he stuff you are professing to know so much with your "research" we can have an intelligent discussion. 

I don't think you're a pilot  or an aircraft owner 

Im through explaining heaven to bears. 

Leave me alone. Go antagonize someone else.  Enjoy your world. 

Yes, they are controversial so I am prepared to be challenged. In fact, really happy to be challenged. It forces to do some research or better still I can just read about the researches that the other guy managed to find (saves me tonnes of time)

Sadly, that didn't happen in our discussion on mixing oil, bottom loading, and CICs... 

I gave you references to all three (probably not on the 2nd one because I can't find any).

What did you give me in return?