Garmin GTN650 or Avidyne IFD440

[DCarlton]

21 minutes ago, skykrawler said:

I think the latest products from Garmin and Avidyne are much closer to an FMS.  I find the touch panel difficult in turbulence (even in heavier twins).

 

I have a relatively new RAM 1500 with the big 12" IPAD sized touch screen.  I have trouble using it bouncing around in heavy traffic.  I feel like my head is down time is way too long trying to execute one change in fast bumper to bumper traffic.  Try to navigate to a menu that I haven't used in a while and my head down time is even longer.  I've never flown a touch screen Garmin product but I would expect a similar experience.  I would definitely demo an Avidyne before I make any moves.  

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, DCarlton said:

I've never flown a touch screen Garmin product but I would expect a similar experience.  I would definitely demo an Avidyne before I make any moves.  

If you have touble in turbulence with the Garmin touch screen, then you haven't learned how to use the side and top rails or the knobs.  In the 10 years that I've had Garmin GTNs, I've never had an issue in turbulence, and although I try to preflight or time the flight to avoid it, I've experienced a couple of rough rides.

[DCarlton]

13 minutes ago, donkaye said:

If you have touble in turbulence with the Garmin touch screen,  then you haven't learned how to use the side and top rails or the knobs.  In the 10 years that I've had Garmin GTNs, I've never had an issue in turbulence, and although I try to preflight or time the flight to avoid it, I've experienced a couple of rough rides.

The concern may be overstated.  However, I've had a tough time using my GNS430 in really rough turbulence.  I even remember commenting to my wife who was along for the ride, "can you imagine doing this with a touch screen".  And yes, you can brace your fingers on the panel to help get your fingers where you want them.  

[midlifeflyer]

22 hours ago, donkaye said:

The title of this thread was which should I buy, Garmin or Avidyne.  The OP said, "Let me know your thoughts."  I gave my opinion.  That's all.

I guess you think it's not time for "mine is great; yours sucks" to go out of style.  

[ArtVandelay]

If you have touble in turbulence with the Garmin touch screen,  then you haven't learned how to use the side and top rails or the knobs.  In the 10 years that I've had Garmin GTNs, I've never had an issue in turbulence, and although I try to preflight or time the flight to avoid it, I've experienced a couple of rough rides.

I imagine the 650 is better than the 750 in turbulence unless you have larger hands.

[Pinecone]

And remember, you can still use the knob for many functions on the GTNs.

Heads down in a plane is different than heads down in an auto.  I highly disagree with the screens and multi layers and using the same inputs in a car.  

[donkaye]

I don't appreciate being deliberately misquoted by "cut and paste", Mark.  You are the first to be added to my "Ignored Users" list.  donkaye never said: "mine is great, yours sucks".  You did.   Disgusting!

[DCarlton]

Corvette C8 or Porsche 911 anyone ?   ;>   

[McMooney]

1 hour ago, DCarlton said:

Corvette C8 or Porsche 911 anyone ?   ;>   

Corvette, all the speed and handling, less than half the cost.  actually in base models the corvette may be faster

[midlifeflyer]

14 hours ago, donkaye said:

I don't appreciate being deliberately misquoted by "cut and paste", Mark.  You are the first to be added to my "Ignored Users" list.  donkaye never said: "mine is great, yours sucks".  You did.   Disgusting!

 

I apologize. That misquote was an error. I was supposed to be quoting myself. Fixing it if I can.

[Pinecone]

9 hours ago, DCarlton said:

Corvette C8 or Porsche 911 anyone ?   ;>   

M2/3/4 

Nearly the same performance of the 911 or Corvette, but with a back seat that can hold two adults and a trunk that can fit a 2 bowl kitchen sink (actually did that with my 2002 M3).

[hais]

22 hours ago, skykrawler said:

I think the latest products from Garmin and Avidyne are much closer to an FMS.  I find the touch panel difficult in turbulence (even in heavier twins).

An FMS also has:

Tight integration with the autopilot and autothrottle

Aircraft specific performance database - airframe drag and engine performance/fuel consumption.

Take-off and landing performance data for helping pilots make those decisions

Winds aloft input for enroute cruise and descent calculations.

Required time-of-arrival  - when you need to depart.

Holds at arbitrary locations

and more....

Thanks for this list. It makes it clearer now how FMS differs from a navigator. The line is blurring though. The GTN now has aircraft specific performance data (one really, just the glide ratio, but still). Perhaps a poor man's autothrottle would be an annunciation "set RPM to 2550 in 5, 4, 3, .... " 

[kris_adams]

I’ve heard about turbulence and touch screens for what seems like forever.  Fwiw, I have a gtn750 and have no memorable issues in turbulence. I try to stay ahead of the plane with respect to keeping my flight plan updated, but I’m certain there are others that are much more efficient with the button pushing as well. Maybe I don’t fly in as bad of turbulence as others.

I have a full G panel and couldn’t be happier with the integration and performance. 

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

On the day of that Mooney TFR incursion in South Carolina a few weeks ago I spent 8 hours transiting the Southeast in my Mooney in a big out and back for a $500 BBQ sandwich.  It was the worst sustained clear air turbulence I have ever flown in.  

All of the touch screens were a problem that day.  The old stuff less so.  I’m not anti glass in any way, but this was my experience on a truly rough day.  

If you're bouncing around to such an extent that you can't get your hand on even a knob of your GPS, then it doesn't make much difference whether it's a touch screen or a GPS with knobs.  First off, I would have had a pretty good idea from my briefing the type of air I would be facing and postpone the flight, or, if surprised in the air, I would hit nearest icon or button, touch direct to, and land.  That kind of turbulence can't be good for not only you, but also the airplane. I don't care whether you are flying at maneuvering or below, the airplane is being stressed; plan on an early resealing if flown in that much turbulence often and also not many people wanting to fly with you.

Bottom line, the prudent pilot will be flying in smooth air most of the time, and some light turbulence occasionally.  In that case touch screens are not an issue in my opinion.

[larrynimmo]

One time, not long ago, I was flying back from ocean city Md back to easton md…short 1/2 hour flight…clear turbulent skies…I knew it was going to be rough…I really got beat up, but I was able to somewhat easily use my 650  touchscreen as needed (mainly frequencies)

I did have other choices…leaving earlier or later, but I chose the middle of the day when the turbulence was at its worst.  My wife and I experienced motion sickness on this flight.

I won’t often knowingly make this type of flight again…”it leaves a bad taste in your mouth”

that being said, at no point did I feel that the flight was unsafe,

[donkaye]

7 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I can’t help wondering if you even have the capacity to see what you did here, Don.  In defense of what you perceived to be a slight of your dear Garmin glass, you implied that I acted imprudently and perhaps even unsafely based on what very little information I presented here. You are predicable, though.  I will give you that.  

Of course I don't have the capacity to understand.  I've only been flying 55 years and over 12,000 GA hours all over the country at all times throughout a year, so don't have a baseline for judging turbulence or making comments from my "little" experience. 

Also, I  said "prudent" meaning acting with or showing care and thought for the future.  My mentor instructor once said the difference between the Private Pilot and ATP Pilot is flying for the comfort of the passenger---even if the passenger is you.  I try to honor that comment.

[rbp]

Both of you got your dander up, and I don't think either of you meant to insult the other

On our trip to florida, my (ATP) son, when working the radios, refused to use the touch screen to change frequencies, and preferred to spin the knobs, for the same reasons as @bluehighwayflyer  's

 

[ilovecornfields]

3 minutes ago, rbp said:

Both of you got your dander up, and I don't think either of you meant to insult the other

On our trip to florida, my (ATP) son, when working the radios, refused to use the touch screen to change frequencies, and preferred to spin the knobs, for the same reasons as @bluehighwayflyer  's

 

Well, my 13 year old son prefers the touchscreen. He especially likes to change the XM radio station on the GTN750 exactly when I’m trying to load an approach. So I guess that cancels out your ATP son. ;-)

@bluehighwayflyer and @donkaye, I’ve learned a lot from both of you and respect your opinions. Why don’t you take it offline? You’re both better than this.

[kortopates]

Well i am guilty of making many flights i probably shouldn’t have. But what is an addicted skiing fantastic to do when flying into the calif sierra in winter? Wait till spring, nah. Too many flights with severe turbulence unfortunately. Never fun, but none where “dangerous”. what i hated most was having to slow drastically to below Va, first with speed brakes to get to gear speed asap and then continue with gear dropped, which also helps with stability. And of course AP off. Then it was like you can’t get too much of a good thing (sarcastically) because then an otherwise 45 min period turns into more like an hour plus to escape the bad turbulence before we can speed up; all the time doing our best to evade the really dangerous rotors.
That said, there were frequency changes, which i always preferred to use the knob to dial in yet with a couple touches to swap. But waypoints i always prefer the touch screen - because one only needs to put in a couple characters and then it will suggest the correct waypoint so merely have to it touch a couple times.
That all said, it’s amazing to me how much easier and how many fewer manipulations are needed with the modern glass over the old GNS’s merely because they are so much more intelligent - if your a frequent user.
Therefore I’d say it’s not the turbulence so much but whether or not you have an ATP in buttonology!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[donkaye]

57 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:

Well, my 13 year old son prefers the touchscreen. He especially likes to change the XM radio station on the GTN750 exactly when I’m trying to load an approach. So I guess that cancels out your ATP son. ;-)

@bluehighwayflyer and @donkaye, I’ve learned a lot from both of you and respect your opinions. Why don’t you take it offline? You’re both better than this.

Actually, I think there was something to be gained from that interaction and different points of view, however, I should have been more general in my comment, and for that I apologize to @bluehighwayflyer.

[DCarlton]

This same passionate debate has likely occurred around many conference tables in just about every major aerospace or avionics company.  I'm sure DOD HMI labs have written reports on it, particularly the USAF labs.  Some of those reports were probably skewed towards the objectives of the program or author (whatever it takes to keep the money flowing).  Did a quick search last night.  It looks like Thales and Airbus are all over the touch screen movement.  I guess it all comes down to personal preference and your budget.  

[EricJ]

6 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

This same passionate debate has likely occurred around many conference tables in just about every major aerospace or avionics company.  I'm sure DOD HMI labs have written reports on it, particularly the USAF labs.  Some of those reports were probably skewed towards the objectives of the program or author (whatever it takes to keep the money flowing).  Did a quick search last night.  It looks like Thales and Airbus are all over the touch screen movement.  I guess it all comes down to personal preference and your budget.  

The big airplanes don't bounce around quite as much as the little ones.   I like using the touch screen, but when one intended tap turns into three, with two of them on the wrong button, and I keep having to redo things, then I like having the option to back off to buttons that are convenient and more stable.    A really nice thing that Avidyne includes with their system is a little wireless keyboard that fits easily in your hands...you can pretty much do anything with it that you can do on the box interface, and it moves with your hands in turbulence.    It's not perfect, either, but it's sure nice when you have a lot of stuff to do, like re-enter a long clearance or something. 

I think the main thing is to find a system that fits how you like to do things.   For many people that's just however they've already done it or whatever system they first learned on.    I've been learning G1000 buttonology, and it's really painful compared to essentially any newer stuff, but it's what some people know and therefore prefer.

 

[kris_adams]

I still have my 430W as my #2 so whenever I feel like I need knobs to turn I just have at it…at least until it gets upgraded (to a 650 to stay on topic lol) in a year or two 

[carusoam]

The cool thing…

Avidyne gives you a decent choice…

If for some reason, you are not a big G fan… you can get a decent WAAS based nav/com for a competitive price with all the features normal to the post y2k world…

If you look close… VOR and ILS are probably still included… not just simulated via GPS… actual receivers being used when required… all within the same box. Kind of bolted on, or in…

ADF and DME… are probably goners…. 

Best regards,

-a-

[midlifeflyer]

If you are a big fan of Garmin's 3-mile final "visual approach," you might really like Avidyne's version.