Landing Gear Down

[Simon]

11 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

I have thousands of hours in Mooneys and I still worry about forgetting the gear. Sure you can say checklist + gumps + final check but the human brain is still capable of forgetting stuff. The most common issue I see with pilots as a  CFI is that they get used to running the checklist at a specific time of the flight (say downwind) so when their work gets upset by an unexpected straight in they forget it. I added a voice annunication system to my Mooney as it seems many pilots have mistaken the gear warning horn in the flare with the stall horn which you always hear in the flare. Hopefully that will increase my odds of finishing my career without a gear up but I do still worry about it.

 

-Robert

How does the voice annunciation work? Is it a specific piece of equipment?

[Nokomis449]

3 hours ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

One thing that helped me was my instructor started making me say "gear, down and locked"

Our saying in the 150 (that I still use today in a fixed gear) was "Gear down and welded".

[RobertGary1]

Just now, midlifeflyer said:

 

I have two, one for VFR and one for IFR. IFR, glideslope intercept means gear down. For VFR and visual approaches, within 3 miles of the airport and at pattern altitude means the same thing.

Just be careful because I've seen this be problematic for some students. What if the GS isn't received and you end up shooting the localizer only? What does "pattern altitude" mean when cleared straight in at a busy airport (do you just have to remember to check in as you pass through the altitude), etc.

 

-Robert

[RobertGary1]

Just now, Simon said:

How does the voice annunciation work? Is it a specific piece of equipment?

http://www.chiefaircraft.com/ei-av-17.html

I have it hooked to warn 1) Low gyro vacuum 2) EDM alarms (saved me when it alerted me that my oil pressure was falling before my engine failed) 3) low voltage 4) Stall 5) Gear. For gear and stall I just wired it inline with the buzzer. Its pretty simple to hook up. Might need the logic inverter for some things as it triggers on loss of voltage. It has an "ack" function that is helpful since you can get voltage alerts at idle with the landing light on and sometimes the low gyro when taxiing. 

 

-Robert

[Simon]

12 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

http://www.chiefaircraft.com/ei-av-17.html

I have it hooked to warn 1) Low gyro vacuum 2) EDM alarms (saved me when it alerted me that my oil pressure was falling before my engine failed) 3) low voltage 4) Stall 5) Gear. For gear and stall I just wired it inline with the buzzer. Its pretty simple to hook up. Might need the logic inverter for some things as it triggers on loss of voltage. It has an "ack" function that is helpful since you can get voltage alerts at idle with the landing light on and sometimes the low gyro when taxiing. 

 

-Robert

Thanks, looks like a cheap and handy device to have.

[MBDiagMan]

Don't worry about gear, low time, no retract experience... Just get a Mooney, the right, good condition Mooney, but a Mooney.  Just do it.  You won't regret it?

[yvesg]

6 hours ago, zulu168 said:

I am still working on my GA license. And had a chat with a retired Air Canada pilot and I told him that I plane to buy a Mooney. His first word was "they are fast":) and he said being a new pilot I might have trouble getting it insured. He also mentioned that majority of the time pilots tend to forget to drop the landing gears and insurance company knows that it's very common. He also ask me why a Mooney and why not buy a Cessna with fix gears. I told him the beauty of plane to me is retractble.  Just wondering if this has happened or even came to close happening to anyone here. I am in Toronto and and would love to get together with any Mooney owner in the area for coffee. 

I am based near Ottawa and fly to Toronto area from time to time. Which airport do you do your training at? I will let you know when I fly around.

Yves

[zulu168]

Buttonville, but they recently moved their training to Oshawa. 

[75_M20F]

2 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

http://www.chiefaircraft.com/ei-av-17.html

I have it hooked to warn 1) Low gyro vacuum 2) EDM alarms (saved me when it alerted me that my oil pressure was falling before my engine failed) 3) low voltage 4) Stall 5) Gear. For gear and stall I just wired it inline with the buzzer. Its pretty simple to hook up. Might need the logic inverter for some things as it triggers on loss of voltage. It has an "ack" function that is helpful since you can get voltage alerts at idle with the landing light on and sometimes the low gyro when taxiing. 

 

-Robert

I have something kind of like that. Mine has a microwave transmitter on the belly that senses the ground and when you are within 50 to 100 feet above the ground and if the gear is still up it loudly states "check landing gear" over and over. (it is smart enough to not sound the alert on climb out) It came on the plane when I bought it. It also says "stall stall stall!"

 

Edited April 21, 2017 by Mooney_Mike

[DonMuncy]

2 hours ago, Simon said:

How does the voice annunciation work? Is it a specific piece of equipment?

They make several types. Mine is wired only into the gear-down warning system and the stall warning system. That is, they are activated the same way as on a standard Mooney, but instead of hearing a horn in the ceiling of the cabin, I hear a female voice in my headset saying either "check landing gear, check landing gear" of "stall, stall, stall". The fact that it is transmitted in the headset is very good. The fact that you can't confuse the message (or wonder "what was that"), is even better.

The downside is that the message is so good, there is a strong tendency to rely on it, rather than checking your landing three time on final.

[SantosDumont]

By difficult to insure he meant be ready to pay. This is my first year of ownership starting with 10hrs in retract 150 hrs total and my quote was something like $2500. 

Now I have about 300 total and 100 in the plane with hopefully IR by then and expecting to get a much less expensive quote. 

[carusoam]

First year of insurance is always about 1AMU more expensive than year two.

Depending on how your brain works remembering the gear is pretty easy.

There is one problem with that...

Do a search on the word 'distraction', here on MS.

This is the word they use to describe how the brain can malfunction and allow the wrong switch to operated, or the brain to remember putting the gear down when it was actually put down 15 minutes earlier during the last landing...

I invite you to understand how the brain works.  It is a great device.  Put the word distraction and gear up in the search box above.  See what falls out.

There used to be a time when people would say, that doesn't happen to me...  we have learned a lot about how the brain works and some things about us that make the brain operate under less than standard conditions.

being ill, tired, hungry, sleepy, in a rush, have something important like where you are going to visit (a sick, dying, or dead person)

There are a lot of things that can fill the brain up.  The checklist is the one thing that when used, doesn't fail.

I was young once, I used to memorize my check lists. I could draw out the entire VFR cloud clearance chart and airspace chart.

I am happy to use my checklists. I won't land without seeing the green gear down light in line with the runway ahead.

 

Wait til your memory gets aged.  See how many strategies you use to support the memory challenges.  

Best regards,

-a-

Edited April 21, 2017 by carusoam

[M20FanJesse]

7 hours ago, Simon said:

I am personally a little terrified of transitioning from a fixed trainer to retractable.  Maybe terrified isn't the right word - more like paranoid.

Having spend all of my fixed wing time with a permanent undercarriage it's never been a part of my landing checklist.

I'd be interested in how other people have made this transition.

 

I just very recently made this transition, kind of! While I still mainly fly local 150's and citabrias (until the day I get a mooney) but I did my complex and HP endorsement. Maybe it was my instructor, maybe its all instructors, but mine ingrained checking for gear down into my brain. Check at least three times when coming in to land. And just as you said, many planes have a "too low 'n slow without gear down" warning light or sound, and that helps. Plus, using checklists is the way to go. Just like how you use a checklist now, it will not be a difficult addition to have a few more items on the list. Im confident you wont have a hard time adapting to it.

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, DonMuncy said:

 but instead of hearing a horn in the ceiling of the cabin, I hear a female voice in my headset saying either "check landing gear, check landing gear" of "stall, stall, stall". 

The brochure for mine specified a "pleasant female voice". On the G1000 we can pick from male or female. She calls out tis traffic etc as well. Although not autopilot disconnect which is a nondescript "bong" that had me confused the other day  

-Robert 

[Hank]

It's usually pretty obvious when you've left the gear up in a Mooney. I've done it twice, once on purpose and once not.

When I moved from WV to AL, it was several months before I was able to bring the plane down (winter weather in WV can be ugly). When I went to pick it up, I thought a high speed pass would be a nice farewell, so I stayed in the pattern, WOT and gear up. I couldn't get anywhere near the ground! 500 agl?

Then, going into the Mooney Summit two years ago, I was excited, the weather sucked and the GPS approach is a long continuous curve across the bay. I spent time looking at the funny chart, making sure I followed the curve between the many points, and didn't notice the IAF or FAF and forgot to put the gear down. Could not figure out for the life of me why  when I was on speed, I kept drifting high, and when  I captured the glideslope I was so fast . . . . When I broke out at 1000' and saw the field, I knew I wouldn't make it (high, fast, yada yada). So I asked for and received permission for a single VFR lap around the field around to landing. That's when I dropped the gear . . . . Watch out for those distractions! 

On a typical landing, it's Takeoff Flaps as soon as I am below 125 mph at pattern altitude; Gear Down abeam point of intended landing (feel the thump as they lock down); turn base, check the green light; turn final, look down and point at the mechanical indicator in the floor (it's painted on the landing gear rod and can't be wrong). I often recheck the green light just before I flare.

You'll figure it out in training, that's what the CFI and checklists are for.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Hank

[midlifeflyer]

11 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Just be careful because I've seen this be problematic for some students. What if the GS isn't received and you end up shooting the localizer only? What does "pattern altitude" mean when cleared straight in at a busy airport (do you just have to remember to check in as you pass through the altitude), etc.

 

-Robert

IFR, I should have said "descent on the final approach course" to be more accurate. That's crossing the FAF whether it be a lightning bolt or Maltese cross.

VFR, I don't have the problem you are imagining. Pattern altitude is pattern altitude and 3 miles is 3 miles. Doesn't matter whether the entry is base, crosswind, downwind, straight in or overhead break. I don't have to "remember" to check in. 

I don't preach a particular location or method. I preach consistency. To the degree that it becomes a habit that is hard to break and doing something different is literally uncomfortable. Heres an example:

i was completing getting checked out in a new to me retract. As I usually do, I told my instructor my gear extension mantra. As we approached the airport he started chuckling. I looked at him questioning. He pointed to my right hand. I had descended early. We were at pattern altitude but were still about five miles away. My hand had unconsciously moved to the gear handle and was hovering there, shaking in anticipation.

OTOH, the one and only time I came even close to a gear up in 25 years of switching back and forth between fixed gear and retracts was the one time I decided to try a new procedure. Gear warning saved the day, scared the crap out of me, especially since the one thing I do insist on personally and when I give transition training is never hearing it unless we are practicing the abnormal procedure.

To repeat. It is not about having a "wonderful" procedure. It's about forming a habit pattern. Is that a guarantee it will never happen? Heck, there's no guarantee I will even wake up tomorrow morning.

As an instructor I would be far more careful of trying to get someone to do something different than what works for them - that's a perfect recipe for error.

 

[Cyril Gibb]

10 hours ago, zulu168 said:

I am still working on my GA license. And had a chat with a retired Air Canada pilot and I told him that I plane to buy a Mooney. His first word was "they are fast":) and he said being a new pilot I might have trouble getting it insured. He also mentioned that majority of the time pilots tend to forget to drop the landing gears and insurance company knows that it's very common. He also ask me why a Mooney and why not buy a Cessna with fix gears. I told him the beauty of plane to me is retractble.  Just wondering if this has happened or even came to close happening to anyone here. I am in Toronto and and would love to get together with any Mooney owner in the area for coffee. 

Four one six four five two two nine four one

Call me tomorrow

[DMJones]

16 hours ago, Hank said:

That's a nice thing to have! and then there are your checklists, and don't you already make a GUMPS check in the pattern? U is for Undercarriage. I prefer this one:

• G  gear down
• U  is the undercarriage down?
• M  make sure the gear is down.
• P  put the gear down!
• S  @#$%!! Is the gear down???

That has GOT to be the BEST pre-landing checklist ever!

[Gone]

17 hours ago, Yetti said:

....   I know I do at least three checks.

Me too.

[rbridges]

I got my mooney with 100ish hours. No reql problems with insurance. The usual 10hrs dual and 10hrs solo. Knock on wood, never close to gear up. I usually need them to act as brakes anyway. From what I've read, distractions and being knocked out of your routine are primary reasons for gear up landings. 

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, rbridges said:

I got my mooney with 100ish hours. No reql problems with insurance. The usual 10hrs dual and 10hrs solo. Knock on wood, never close to gear up. I usually need them to act as brakes anyway. From what I've read, distractions and being knocked out of your routine are primary reasons for gear up landings. 

IMO, that's pretty much what it comes down to. The stronger the routine is embedded, the less likely you are to be knocked out of it.

[Yetti]

There are certain things to do at certain places.   The only variable is when I go to half flaps. It is usually on base, but winds and how well we are coming into line up on the runway can change that.

POH  No turns low to the ground under 90mph without flaps down.  I do not violate that rule.

[Rmag]

My instructor made me do these things:

For the initial gear down I do not remove my hand from the gear lever until I confirm the gear down annunciator and the green in the floor window.

GUMP on downwind, GUMP on base, GUMP on final.  If I missed the GUMP on final it was a go-around.  All GUMP checks are verbal, and the hand moves to the appropriate controls.  The gear check is not only the switch position, but a reconfirmation of the annunciator and the floor window.

He said if you get in a hurry or don't fly a standard pattern, that's when it bites you.  That's why GUMP 3 different times in case one is missed.

I agree with what others said about it's hard to slow the Mooney without the gear out, which is definitely a bonus to this aircraft.  Of my J my gear extension speed is 140 kt and my 1st  notch of flaps is 132 kt.  So my gear is first when slowing down.

 

[flyboy0681]

All of these suggestions are great, until the one time that you are distracted for some reason. 

[gsengle]

All of these suggestions are great, until the one time that you are distracted for some reason. 

That's why you do it on short final. Religiously. I've been distracted plenty of times, including practicing power off 180s and other such things in the pattern. I get even more paranoid about the gear when I'm in such a situation. Not every pilot gear ups their airplane....

If you know distractions are the real cause of gear ups you can also get extra alert any time your routine is broken.


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