I need advice. Mooney, 182, or nothing.

[Alan Fox]

20 hours ago, carusoam said:

Typical things measured when comparing sports cars...

It's a challenge to measure the 0-60 time in either... A few seconds later, I'm flying...

Accelerating out of a corner...  the Mooney does it a full speed, no accelerating... try a 90° corner in a car at full speed!

100 - 0...  not measurable in a Mooney, the plane won't stay on the ground going that fast...

HP to weight ratio... The O3 powered versions have a better ratio than a Corvette.  No measurements required... or gear changes for that matter....

Sitting position is similar, but you have to climb up on a Mooney before sitting in it...

Sports cars can earn you points and tickets easily. Hold the throttle at WOT count to ten....  Mooneys, you would have to buzz the tower at class C at WOT to earn a prize...

My favorite plane that Alan has/had is the B brand bird.   Great for sleeping in!  The gentle wag of the tail... no need to climb to high altitudes!  

 

For a great simulation of flying around in an F... find the videos posted by Marauder on YouTube.   There are a couple related to flying with the fancy electronic Aspen devices he installed over the last 25 years of ownership.

For a spectacular simulation of flying around in an E...  Find the videos posted by Bob on YouTube.  There is a really good one related to flying into SnF.

Let me know if you need a hand finding these web gems...

Best regards,

-a-

I don't even think you woke up on my gentle as a feather landing!!!  Chris loves the B also ,   We were outrunning a storm , And I turned final hot and high , Chopped , dropped , slipped , landed on the numbers , , Chris was white as a ghost..... and I quote  " I couldn't even think of doing that in my Mooney" .....

[Hank]

21 hours ago, carusoam said:

Typical things measured when comparing sports cars...

It's a challenge to measure the 0-60 time in either... A few seconds later, I'm flying...

Accelerating out of a corner...  the Mooney does it a full speed, no accelerating... try a 90° corner in a car at full speed!

100 - 0...  not measurable in a Mooney, the plane won't stay on the ground going that fast...

HP to weight ratio... The O3 powered versions have a better ratio than a Corvette.  No measurements required... or gear changes for that matter....

Sitting position is similar, but you have to climb up on a Mooney before sitting in it...

Sports cars can earn you points and tickets easily. Hold the throttle at WOT count to ten....  Mooneys, you would have to buzz the tower at class C at WOT to earn a prize...

My favorite plane that Alan has/had is the B brand bird.   Great for sleeping in!  The gentle wag of the tail... no need to climb to high altitudes!  

 

For a great simulation of flying around in an F... find the videos posted by Marauder on YouTube.   There are a couple related to flying with the fancy electronic Aspen devices he installed over the last 25 years of ownership.

For a spectacular simulation of flying around in an E...  Find the videos posted by Bob on YouTube.  There is a really good one related to flying into SnF.

Let me know if you need a hand finding these web gems...

Best regards,

-a-

One interesting thing I found out when I repainted the numbers at our airport. I know where I lifted off at 70 mph, so when I finished painting the "26" and needed to get me, paint bucket and rollers to the other end for the "8," I gave it all my 5-speed Accord had, and was nowhere near 70 mph by the same spot in the runway. Can't imagine what 310 hp would be like, my C only has 180. I realize that opportunities to do this are few and far between, I just wanted to throw this out for reference. Yes, I spun the tires a little leaving the line, but didn't spill any paint. The runway was only 3000' long, and I had my handheld plugged into my halo headset the whole time I was out there. Never realized just how large those numbers are until I started painting them . . .

[KLRDMD]

1 hour ago, Alan Fox said:

We were outrunning a storm , And I turned final hot and high , Chopped , dropped , slipped , landed on the numbers , , Chris was white as a ghost..... and I quote  " I couldn't even think of doing that in my Mooney" .....

In the Mooney, there would have been plenty of time to leisurely fly a normal pattern as you would have easily outrun the storm at a normal cruise speed 

[KLRDMD]

21 hours ago, Hank said:

I also enjoy not having to maintain a hydraulic system to operate the flaps.

HINT: You're maintaining the same hydraulic system to maintain your brakes anyway 

[Raptor05121]

I dislike the hydraulic flaps. I never understood that. Made the J-bar as simple to operate and maintain, and the same with the M20/A/B flaps, and then went to leaky hydraulic flaps in the C/D////

[carusoam]

Alex, you probably only have to do it once...

You will love doing the OH on the flap pump...

Fair warning, there is a small steel ball from a check valve that wants to get away.  Sort of like flubber...

If you set it free, it heads directly for a floor drain up to 100 yds. away...

Now you know it, in advance. 

Best regards,

-a-

[cnoe]

Putting the hydraulic flaps "down" is simple. But how many of you can honestly say that your flaps retract properly (as specified in the maintenance manual)? IMO that hydraulic release valve is one of the most poorly engineered parts in the fleet. Just sayin'.


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[Raptor05121]

Mine retract wayy too fast. And pulling out the little tab is a hassle.

I just want manual johnson bar flaps like the cherokee with a push-button disengage.

[Andy95W]

6 hours ago, Raptor05121 said:

Mine retract wayy too fast. And pulling out the little tab is a hassle.

I just want manual johnson bar flaps like the cherokee with a push-button disengage.

The retract adjustment is very easy to do and is well discussed in the service manual.  You turn a big screw looking thing on the front side of the flap actuator.  The only difficult thing is that the difference between locked solid and slamming upward is about 1/8th of a turn.  Easy to do, even easier with two people.  Will take about 10 minutes once you get the belly panel off.

[cnoe]

The only difficult thing is that the difference between locked solid and slamming upward is about 1/8th of a turn.

My point exactly. And retract speed is greatly dependent on airspeed. Do anyone's hydraulic flaps retract in 8-12 seconds in flight?

What's worse is that the unit is no longer in production, gets old/worn and can no longer be adjusted appropriately. At that point even the best MSCs will tell you "that's just the way it is".

A fine needle-valve or metered orifice would have been vastly superior to the spring and ball method employed.

So many things to love about vintage Mooneys but I'll stick with the electric flaps. YMMV.




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[Bob_Belville]

The saving grace is that this system is only on older planes with 200 hp or less and it is rare to want to raise full flaps except on the ground after landing. In the event of a balked landing with trim full up, flaps full, and airspeed below 70 kias, (probably with an instructor beside you who just told you to go around) it is still possible to add power, build airspeed while trimming pitch down, establish positive VAS and then dump flaps. A firm grip on the yoke to override trim should come natural. As speed builds and pitch is trimmed to something like Vx the gear can be raised. 

At the recent PPP in NH Lee Fox and I spent about an hour doing stalls from every configuration (at night). We played with releasing full flaps for 2 seconds which left them at approximately 15 deg = T.O. position. Of course that does depend upon whether the bleed adjustment is set right. I doubt I'd do that in real world, close to the ground scenario since I would not be willing to look down at the indicator. But it wouldn't hurt. 

[carusoam]

The MM is simple to follow... adjustments are easy to make...

Know that the time to retract on the ground is different than while in the air.

If your flaps snap back and dump all of the lift immediately, get it set up properly!

trying maneuver the valve by hand will kind of work until you hit a bump.  Dumping the flaps immediately is bad for stall avoidance...

nice pages from the manual Cnoe!  I see the small steel balls.

Best regards,

-a-

[Alan Fox]

On 11/23/2016 at 8:39 PM, KLRDMD said:

In the Mooney, there would have been plenty of time to leisurely fly a normal pattern as you would have easily outrun the storm at a normal cruise speed 

Ha Ha , Below 8000 feet my Bo is faster than your Turbo.....With less maitenence !!!

[dmc]

When I was looking I considered the same, but also included the bonanzas.  I ended up with a 225hp Debonair.  I'm sure I would have been just as happy with a F model.  The J's were out of my price range at the time.  I just came across a debonair that met my wants in a price I could afford first.  I have been very happy so far, and with mogas available here the fuel cost per hour is about the same.  

And truth be told it was the one the wife liked best.

[KLRDMD]

3 hours ago, Alan Fox said:

Ha Ha , Below 8000 feet my Bo is faster than your Turbo.....With less maitenence !!!

I don't fly below 8,0000 ft so your point is moot. And you're burning how much more fuel to go a couple knots faster down low and you're still burning how much more fuel to go significantly slower above 8,0000 ft ?

[gsengle]

You can buy an Ovation if you wanna be fastest from 0-8k feet. You can buy a Bravo or Acclaim if you want to be fastest above 8k. Either way the Mooney is faster. Pick your poison.


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[whiskytango]

I have owned a Turbo 182RG and 3 different Mooneys over the years.  The 182 was certainly a safe, reliable airplane and a good IFR platform, but I always felt that I was flying a sofa with wings.  Finding a ladder when you are self-fueling is also a PIA.  FWIW, I will take a Mooney any day over a 182.  It is way more fun to fly and will always beat the 182 on fuel flow at the same speed.

[Hank]

3 hours ago, whiskytango said:

I have owned a Turbo 182RG and 3 different Mooneys over the years.  The 182 was certainly a safe, reliable airplane and a good IFR platform, but I always felt that I was flying a sofa with wings.  Finding a ladder when you are self-fueling is also a PIA.  FWIW, I will take a Mooney any day over a 182.  It is way more fun to fly and will always beat the 182 on fuel flow at the same speed.

A Mooney will always beat a 182 on speed at the same fuel flow, too.

Even my C will outrun a 182, and I do it on 9 gph . . . An R182 may keep up, but it will take 50% more fuel.

[Alan Fox]

5 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

I don't fly below 8,0000 ft so your point is moot. And you're burning how much more fuel to go a couple knots faster down low and you're still burning how much more fuel to go significantly slower above 8,0000 ft ?

I burn 15 to do 170 knots  , Oh yea , I can take people AND fuel !!!  And if I want to go fast up high , I will take my P-210

[gsengle]

And I do 175 or more on 13.... QED


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[gsxrpilot]

The first flight in my K 252, a Bo was within 5 miles, same altitude, from Memphis to San Marcos. We landed within 5 minutes of each other. Same altitude, same speed, same track. I burned 40 gal, he burned 52 gal.

[KLRDMD]

2 hours ago, Alan Fox said:

I burn 15 to do 170 knots  , Oh yea , I can take people AND fuel !!!  And if I want to go fast up high , I will take my P-210

I generally fly 160 KTAS at 9 GPH but to get 170 KTAS I would have to go all the way up to 10.0 GPH, and that's at a paltry 9,500 ft. Higher is less fuel for the same speed. That 5-6 GPH difference in fuel burn is 30-36 lb per hour that I effectively get back in useful load. And I fly solo 95% of the time so I pretty much always have way more useful load than I'll ever need.

I'll give you the high part with a P210, but the fast part, come on . . . A P-210 will not climb as well as a Mooney 231 (or any M20K, M20M or M20TN), it will get maybe half the climb rate. I have many P210 hours. Then the P210 won't cruise as fast at any given altitude as a Mooney 231 (or any M20K, M20M or M20TN) and the P210 will burn more fuel than any of them, still going slower than any of them.

[EtradeBaby]

So my flight instructor threw a kink in my plans to purchase a Mooney.  Apparently there are some people at our airfield wanting a 3rd partner in an SR22 g2. 83k which is the price range I was in for the Mooney. downsides are obviously partners and they want to professionally manage the plane. that's 400 more per month. the advantages are a parachute and way better avionics than anything I will be able to afford for a while.  What do you guys think? 

[gsengle]

You won't find a ton of Cirrus fans here they are very fundamentally different planes. Don't forget that they had a poor accident rate until the fleet had lots of remedial training which emphasizes not hesitating to pull the chute. Commendable but many have suspicions that the airframe itself isn't very good.

My own main concern is that the airplane has a bungee rather than an aerodynamic trim system. The ding on this is that it leaves slow flight control feel lacking, possibly contributing to loss of control accidents in the pattern, where coincidentally, you're too low for chute deployment.

(Compare to razor sharp pushrod control system and efficient trimmable tail in the Mooney)

You're aware I assume that the chute was required to pass certification due to issues with spins... that makes some go hmmm...

Another criticism is that they aren't that well made, and "plastic" repairs can be expensive.

Make sure you check insurance rates, they are rumored to be high.

Also you're paying into the kitty every year for an expensive chute repack, it's like having a second expensive overhaul looming. (Kind of like a twin that way)

They also are slower than the equivalent Mooneys. And many of us think that a plane that doesn't pull up the gear looks like a toy. But you have to expect that, you're on Mooneyspace here.

On the plus side, it's comfy. By all means go fly it. Also seems a little expensive at 250k all together.

g


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[Zwaustin]

11 minutes ago, EtradeBaby said:

So my flight instructor threw a kink in my plans to purchase a Mooney.  Apparently there are some people at our airfield wanting a 3rd partner in an SR22 g2. 83k which is the price range I was in for the Mooney. downsides are obviously partners and they want to professionally manage the plane. that's 400 more per month. the advantages are a parachute and way better avionics than anything I will be able to afford for a while.  What do you guys think? 

I love owning alone. Plane is always how I left it, I know how I fly it; properly, I know exactly what is going on with it all the time and when I need it she is waiting there. I also think the Cirri aircraft are overpriced but that's just me. Spend 100-120 and get a great K. Granted this is coming from someone selling one right now! Also, I have been in a cirrus one time and was not that impressed but it was not a newer one. Think it was an early 2000's model.