I need advice. Mooney, 182, or nothing.

[KLRDMD]

Just now, EtradeBaby said:

   How hard is it to get the manual gear up on a climb out? Seems like it would be difficult unless you nose over. Not to mention I'm an I&E technician at my primary job. Which basically translates into liking all things electronic. So I was looking forward to the electric gear.

100% agree with getting manual gear. When I bought my F model a few years ago I wouldn't even look at anything with electric gear.

[HRM]

22 hours ago, EtradeBaby said:

Also, I've never actually ridden in a Mooney...

Grasshopper, don't, and absolutely do not fly one--especially a Super 21.

If you do and later wind up with the 182, you will forever think back to that Mooney. It will haunt you, consume you, until finally you sell the 182 at a loss and return to the Mooneyspace (wherefrom this site derives it's name). 

After that you will fly happily ever after.

 

[gsxrpilot]

Just now, EtradeBaby said:

   How hard is it to get the manual gear up on a climb out? Seems like it would be difficult unless you nose over. Not to mention I'm an I&E technician at my primary job. Which basically translates into liking all things electronic. So I was looking forward to the electric gear. Is there really a significant cost savings between the two? How do you manually lower the gear should the electric motor fail? 

  You also made me think of another question. Is it more important to find a lower time engine that hasn't flown much in the past decade or a higher time engine that see frequent usage? My background with automotive engines leads me to believe higher times are acceptable maybe even desireable if it was maintained well and overhauled recently. I've seen several planes with low time engines that were last overhauled when Bill Clinton was in office. I tend to want to shy away from those planes. 

Almost everyone who has any real experience with the manual gear, loves it. The first few times you fly, it's like wrestling a snake in the cockpit. But after maybe 10 hours in the plane, the gear will almost swing its self. I could move the gear easily on climb out with just a couple of fingers. It's all about the timing and rhythm. No nose over needed.  The manual gear is simple and fool proof. Whereas the electric gear has some very expensive to replace, components that do wear out. If you ever lose the electric gear drive, you'll want an autopilot and a place to go hold, some extra gas in the tanks, and time to crank the gear down. One way to explain it. With electric gear there are multiple indicators to let you know the gear is down and locked. And you have to trust those indicators. I flew my C with manual gear for almost a year with the gear indicators all Inop. But with the manual gear you don't need them. You can literally grab the gear with your hand and verify that it's down and securely locked in place.  I believe the manual gear Mooney's are the only retracts flying that were not required to have a back up gear extension mechanism by the FAA. It's a beautifully engineered system.

I'm a techie myself. I'd play with electrons in the panel all you like, but leave the gear to mechanical engineering.

I'll absolutely agree with you on the engine. I believe the sweet spot is between 500 and 1000 hours being flown regularly at a minimum of 8 hours a month or 100 hours per year. If I don't find that, I'd rather regularly flown with higher time. There is just no substitute for regular use.

[EtradeBaby]

So how do the manual gear lock in the down position and can it be easily actuated by accident? I remember watching a YouTube video of a plane attempting to take off of a very bumpy soft field. Looked like some sort of fly in and the gear just collapsed underneath him. With a lever actuated system that seems like it could happen easily. 

[gsxrpilot]

3 minutes ago, EtradeBaby said:

So how do the manual gear lock in the down position and can it be easily actuated by accident? I remember watching a YouTube video of a plane attempting to take off of a very bumpy soft field. Looked like some sort of fly in and the gear just collapsed underneath him. With a lever actuated system that seems like it could happen easily. 

It would take some descriptive writing that is beyond my skill as a writer. But go fly one and you'll see.

There is a block that locks the gear in place. That block could become worn and cause an un-comanded gear collapse. But it would have to be warn WAY past any tolerances and can be easily inspected in the cockpit by the average pilot. Secondly if the gear handle is not seated in the block correctly, it could give way. Again, that is easily tested by a couple of different methods each time the gear is lowered. Either a thumbnail slid into the block, or my preferred method was just a solid yank on the handle.

Go fly one, and you will forever more, look at electric gear with suspicion. "Is that electric gear really down and locked?" With the manual gear you can prove it every time.

[AlexLev]

I considered both a 182 and a Mooney and while a 182 seemed more practical for my mission (3 other adults), I bit the bullet and bought a Mooney after riding in one. I told myself I'd alter my mission for that plane. Forget the pax! I'm still in the process of closing, but I'll let you know if I regret it. Spoiler: I probably won't.

Edited November 23, 2016 by AlexLev

[Yetti]

F or J model.  Have 10AMU in the bank after you purchase to fix things.  If an airplane is like a flying canoe...  the 182 is just aluminum.  The Mooney is a steel cage wrapped in aluminum.

[Browncbr1]

28 minutes ago, EtradeBaby said:

So how do the manual gear lock in the down position and can it be easily actuated by accident? I remember watching a YouTube video of a plane attempting to take off of a very bumpy soft field. Looked like some sort of fly in and the gear just collapsed underneath him. With a lever actuated system that seems like it could happen easily. 

It would be easier to accidentally retract electric gear than the manual jbar.  There is a button that you must depress that slides a pin that enables sliding a collar down and out of a big aluminum block at the same time. It is very easy to operate, but I don't see how it can be done unintentionally.  It is not a simple lever   

What you saw was likely when something broke due to a rough runway.   

[Bob_Belville]

Mooney Manual - Johnson Bar gear.

I lowered the gear @ ~ 7:45 in the video below. The indicator lights above the GPS change from red to green but you might not notice the actual JBar move. (JBar veterans will notice that I had to buckle the seat belt. ) Excuse the drama, our first time at Sun N Fun and my copilot is a CFI. Can't help himself.

(BTW, "MooneyGirl" rode shotgun with me from KERV to KGGG earlier this year so she could try lowering the gear from the right seat. Easy Peezy she said.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKBNWcXxpuM

[carusoam]

How many C pilots are passionate about their C182?

It is sorta a big version of beige, medium, plane, with the funny wing on top so you can look down easily...until you are in the traffic pattern, that's when the wing is in the way.

It does everything moderately well, except it drinks 100LL like a champion!

 

Since we have gotten to the part about finances...   the C182 is out of line with the F and the J.  

It has a large engine (Siri said it has an IO540) with large fuel flows, but it flies slowly like its siblings...

 

What part of speed, efficiency and safety, Would you trade in to get medium, beige, blah, But it carries a lot of fuel that it used up so quickly...?

The reason people prefer Mooney.  Speed, effiecency and safety.  It takes a whole bunch of extra effort to find the right one....

Is it worth it?

Best regards,

-a-

[HRM]

55 minutes ago, EtradeBaby said:

So how do the manual gear lock in the down position and can it be easily actuated by accident? I remember watching a YouTube video of a plane attempting to take off of a very bumpy soft field. Looked like some sort of fly in and the gear just collapsed underneath him. With a lever actuated system that seems like it could happen easily. 

As other's pointed out, the gear locks into a heavy aluminum block. That block wears over time. Mine was 50 years old and I decided to replace it prophylactically. 

If you enter in to the purchase of a Mooney with manual gear, find out how old that block is. They are relatively easy and inexpensive to replace. 

Search 'manual gear' here on MS--you'll also note that the electric gear guys don't have half the cockpit humor that we manual gearheads do.

[Alan Fox]

OK Anthony , here goes , The 182 does everything good , It easily climbs at 1500 fpm.... It can do more ,   It carries 88 gallons of fuel.....It can go 135 indicated knots on the airspeed indicator , at 12 gallons per hour , It can fly at 38 knots all day long , It can carry 1300 lbs ul ,  It can land in 800 feet easily , It is HUGE inside , has two doors and real landing gear , you can land it anywhere , you can put floats on it .... Outside of a Beaver , Its is perhaps the most mission capable aircraft...... And just so you know , my 182 is faster than an F ....( the wheels go up)    and you can spin it without fearing for your life.......   When I had an E model and the Cessna , I preferred the Cessna....  I really like the Mooney ,   But I get a kick out of people saying the mooney is like a sports car , Its not , neither is a 182 , and neither is a Bonanza ,  They are all sedans.....A pitts or an Extra are sports cars

 

[gsengle]

I don't know, a rocket missile ovation eagle bravo or acclaim are pretty quick sports cars


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[Bob_Belville]

11 hours ago, HRM said:

As other's pointed out, the gear locks into a heavy aluminum block. That block wears over time. Mine was 50 years old and I decided to replace it prophylactically. 

If you enter in to the purchase of a Mooney with manual gear, find out how old that block is. They are relatively easy and inexpensive to replace. 

Search 'manual gear' here on MS--you'll also note that the electric gear guys don't have half the cockpit humor that we manual gearheads do.

I had Lynn order a lock down block today! My M20E is over 50 years old but I don't know if the block is OE, probably is. Lynn has replaced at least 3 this year. DMax must have a collection of several dozen that he's replaced. 

[HRM]

Just now, Alan Fox said:

OK Anthony , here goes , The 182 does everything good , It easily climbs at 1500 fpm.... It can do more ,   It carries 88 gallons of fuel.....It can go 135 indicated knots on the airspeed indicator , at 12 gallons per hour , It can fly at 38 knots all day long , It can carry 1300 lbs ul ,  It can land in 800 feet easily , It is HUGE inside , has two doors and real landing gear , you can land it anywhere , you can put floats on it .... Outside of a Beaver , Its is perhaps the most mission capable aircraft...... And just so you know , my 182 is faster than an F ....( the wheels go up)    and you can spin it without fearing for your life.......   When I had an E model and the Cessna , I preferred the Cessna....  I really like the Mooney ,   But I get a kick out of people saying the mooney is like a sports car , Its not , neither is a 182 , and neither is a Bonanza ,  They are all sedans.....A pitts or an Extra are sports cars

 

Puh-leez...the 182 is a soccer-moms SUV.

[HRM]

Just now, Bob_Belville said:

I had my Lynn order a lock down block today! My M20E is over 50 years old but I don't know if the block is OE, probably is. Lynn has replaced at least 3 this year. DMax must have a collection of several dozen that he's replaced. 

Mine looked worn and probably could have gone longer, but 50 years is 50 years on such a critical part (there are horror stories out there of J-bars popping out).

[EtradeBaby]

23 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Mooney Manual - Johnson Bar gear.

I lowered the gear @ ~ 7:45 in the video below. The indicator lights above the GPS change from red to green but you might not notice the actual JBar move. (JBar veterans will notice that I had to buckle the seat belt. ) Excuse the drama, our first time at Sun N Fun and my copilot is a CFI. Can't help himself.

(BTW, "MooneyGirl" rode shotgun with me from KERV to KGGG earlier this year so she could try lowering the gear from the right seat. Easy Peezy she said.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKBNWcXxpuM

Nice video. 

[Alan Fox]

Just now, gsengle said:

I don't know, a rocket missile ovation eagle bravo or acclaim are pretty quick sports cars


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I wouldn't consider any aircraft not approved for spins a sports car.......In fact by all your descriptions , you all brag that they are economy cars.....  Like a Prius with wings........LMAO

Just now, HRM said:

Mine looked worn and probably could have gone longer, but 50 years is 50 years on such a critical part (there are horror stories out there of J-bars popping out).

If you don't know about the thumbnail test on the J-bar , you are setting yourself up for disaster regardless of the age of the block.....but replacing the block might be good maintenance..

[Bob_Belville]

Just now, HRM said:

Mine looked worn and probably could have gone longer, but 50 years is 50 years on such a critical part (there are horror stories out there of J-bars popping out).

Exactly. Mine looks much better that the 2 Lynn had replaced. It would probably have been fine for as long as I'll own the plane - I don't buy green banana - but I have to fix stuff when I discover it. 

[Bob_Belville]

Just now, EtradeBaby said:

Nice video. 

That's a short body M20E. The voice in the back seat is 6'. The 2 guys in the front dress out at about 450#.

[gsengle]

Have you flown an Ovation? It's a sports car... and spin recovery is required for certification. Unless you're cirrus :-o


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[HRM]

Just now, Alan Fox said:

If you don't know about the thumbnail test on the J-bar , you are setting yourself up for disaster regardless of the age of the block.....but replacing the block might be good maintenance..

I just go with the yank test (as prescribed by the Guru of GGG). The new block seems tighter than the old one and now I know it will outlast me.

[carusoam]

Typical things measured when comparing sports cars...

It's a challenge to measure the 0-60 time in either... A few seconds later, I'm flying...

Accelerating out of a corner...  the Mooney does it a full speed, no accelerating... try a 90° corner in a car at full speed!

100 - 0...  not measurable in a Mooney, the plane won't stay on the ground going that fast...

HP to weight ratio... The O3 powered versions have a better ratio than a Corvette.  No measurements required... or gear changes for that matter....

Sitting position is similar, but you have to climb up on a Mooney before sitting in it...

Sports cars can earn you points and tickets easily. Hold the throttle at WOT count to ten....  Mooneys, you would have to buzz the tower at class C at WOT to earn a prize...

My favorite plane that Alan has/had is the B brand bird.   Great for sleeping in!  The gentle wag of the tail... no need to climb to high altitudes!  

 

For a great simulation of flying around in an F... find the videos posted by Marauder on YouTube.   There are a couple related to flying with the fancy electronic Aspen devices he installed over the last 25 years of ownership.

For a spectacular simulation of flying around in an E...  Find the videos posted by Bob on YouTube.  There is a really good one related to flying into SnF.

Let me know if you need a hand finding these web gems...

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

Don't let the J bar crowd dissuade you from electric gear, it's stone simple, too--Mooney just cut off the J bar and added an electric motor. We all have the little blinky lights  on the panel for Gear Safe and Gear Unsafe. I also have a mechanical indicator on the floor, a window cut in the floor so that either a red stripe or green stripe is visible (for Unsafe and Safe); these stripes are painted on the gear rod, if the green is showing, the gear is 100% down and locked.

Some people prefer the manual gear, but don't think the electric is any less mechanical because a motor moves the very shirt bar under the floor. That's really the only change. The newer models with different gear motors had problems with the back spring, which were poorly made and failed, leaving the gear stuck in the Up position. This isn't a problem with the Vintage planes.

Personally, I greatly prefer the electric gear and flaps. Not only does my right shoulder appreciate it (I've had surgery there once already, don't want it again), but I also enjoy not having to maintain a hydraulic system to operate the flaps. Plus I get to store approach plates on the floor below the throttle, and I keep sectionals, snacks and water bottles between the seats. In manual gear birds, these spaces are reserved to for the long gear lever . . . But in a short body, interior volume and floor space are sacred and not easily given up.

[SantosDumont]

I got my ticket in July, started looking at airframes immediately.  By the time I found my '67F I had around 120 hrs in a variety of planes: Cherokee, 150, 172, 175. Got my complex in a '66C with manual gear and fell in love with the Mooney. I had some trouble with the electric flaps on the 172 I did my check ride in that convinced me that manual is the way to go. 

My mission is 95% fly myself for business so speed / economy was my #1 requirement. I wanted to start immediately on my IR so I needed something that was already IFR capable. 

I had three requirements when looking: Manual gear, GPS, Autopilot. 

I can only echo that I found it most cost effective to get the plane with the avionics that I needed. 

I get about 150kts on 9GPH. I took my plane on its first real XC last week, about 750 miles.  While it was nice to have the extra few kts on the way there, it was much nicer to have them on the way back when I was fighting a 30kt headwind that turned a 5hr trip into 7hrs. Also nice is the extended range tanks that I can fit 96 GAL in. 

Definately make sure you spend a couple hours in a Mooney and get the experience before you make your choice.