IFR low enroute charts

[Bob - S50]

21 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

Try clicking on one of the IFR Low charts on the master map. When I do that it pops up the cycle (1606) and the valid dates 11/10/2016-01/05/2017. (Android tablet)

Thanks.  Just tried it and mine are good until January.

[Bob - S50]

3 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

That's a lot of work. Why not just pull up the plate in the app and look at the cycle date written along the left margin? If it's the current 56 day cycle, it's the current chart. Is Pilot removing that information?

That would be too easy.  However, yes it does remove the data along the margin.  Maybe that's something Garmin could add in the next update.

[midlifeflyer]

5 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

That would be too easy.  However, yes it does remove the data along the margin.  Maybe that's something Garmin could add in the next update.

That's weird. There's nothing to "add." The digital charts come from the FAA that way (I assume you are not using the Jepp charts). For some reason, Garmin is actively removing a portion of the data. I wonder why. 

[Marauder]

That's weird. There's nothing to "add." The digital charts come from the FAA that way (I assume you are not using the Jepp charts). For some reason, Garmin is actively removing a portion of the data. I wonder why. 

Yeah, lots of creative trimming on GP





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[flyboy0681]

6 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

Thanks.  Just tried it and mine are good until January.

Same here. Seems they caught the problem and as soon as I opened up the App the new charts started downloading automatically.

[midlifeflyer]

14 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Yeah, lots of creative trimming on GP

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I think I understand. Purely a guess. It's database related. In order to limit database size and shorten download time, Pilot only downloads charts that have changed. The dates along the left margin are the current FAA printing cycle. That changes every 56 days regardless of whether an individual plate had changed. They cut off the information so you won't pick a chart and think it's not current.

[Marauder]

Same here. Seems they caught the problem and as soon as I opened up the App the new charts started downloading automatically.

I wish I knew this was going to happen 24 hours ago! I wouldn't have deleted the app and reloaded it.




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[kortopates]

3 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

Yeah, lots of creative trimming on GP

 

 

 

3 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

I think I understand. Purely a guess. It's database related. In order to limit database size and shorten download time, Pilot only downloads charts that have changed. The dates along the left margin are the current FAA printing cycle. That changes every 56 days regardless of whether an individual plate had changed. They cut off the information so you won't pick a chart and think it's not current.

If I understand you correctly, the date information is still there in two places. See the top right hand corner of Chris GP chart - "16259". The 16259 is the chart date code for 2016, day 259 of 365/366. The second date is much more readable on the lower left bottom. It shows "Amdt 1b 15Sept16".

So although it doesn't show the print cycle, it shows the revision date of the chart.  FWIW, Jepp charts do not have a print cycle - just a revision date.

[Marauder]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

 

If I understand you correctly, the date information is still there in two places. See the top right hand corner of Chris GP chart - "16259". The 16259 is the chart date code for 2016, day 259 of 365/366. The second date is much more readable on the lower left bottom. It shows "Amdt 1b 15Sept16".

So although it doesn't show the print cycle, it shows the revision date of the chart.  FWIW, Jepp charts do not have a print cycle - just a revision date.

Paul -- you give me too much credit for my ability to figure out which date day 259 represents.  If I were Rain Man, perhaps I could pull that off.

The "Amdt 1b 15Sept16" does not show on all of the Lancaster plates, just the ones that changed. The RNAV to RWY 8 has an amendment date of 25Jun15. If there was another change after that date and GP didn't download it, I would never know. I think there really needs to be a valid cycle date on these.

Wonder if ForeFlight or the other apps do it differently.

[midlifeflyer]

5 hours ago, kortopates said:

 

If I understand you correctly, the date information is still there in two places. See the top right hand corner of Chris GP chart - "16259". The 16259 is the chart date code for 2016, day 259 of 365/366. The second date is much more readable on the lower left bottom. It shows "Amdt 1b 15Sept16".

So although it doesn't show the print cycle, it shows the revision date of the chart.  FWIW, Jepp charts do not have a print cycle - just a revision date.

Yes, I know about the Coded and non-coded revision dates. I'm referring to the cycle date. A chart with current cycle date (Nov 10 to Dec 8) printed along the left margin may have a last revision date 3 years ago but you know it is current because if the cycle date without referring to anythink else. OTOH, looking at a chart with a 3 year old revision date but no cycle date tells you nothing about whether it is current; you need to go to another source.

IOW, if you see 14125 and Amdt 2 5May14 and no other date information, you can't tell from only the chart if it is current or not. With neither of those but a cycle date of Nov 10 To Dec 8 2016, you know it is.

If the goal is to know whether the chart is current just by looking at it, the cycle date is the valuable one.

[midlifeflyer]

4 hours ago, Marauder said:

Wonder if ForeFlight or the other apps do it differently.

ForeFlight, WingX, Aerovie, FlyQ, FltPlan Go!, iFlyGPS, AvNav EFB, and DroidEFB all include the chart as published by the FAA, including the cycle dates. That's the group I'm familiar with. I don't know about the others, but I doubt any smaller developer would bother with cutting them off.

[M016576]

33 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

ForeFlight, WingX, Aerovie, FlyQ, FltPlan Go!, iFlyGPS, AvNav EFB, and DroidEFB all include the chart as published by the FAA, including the cycle dates. That's the group I'm familiar with. I don't know about the others, but I doubt any smaller developer would bother with cutting them off.

In FlyQ you can select whether you want to download "all procedures" or just the procedures that have changed.  It also shows the entire chart, including the cycle date.  

Im not sure about the legality of using a chart that has been verified to have no changes, but is out of cycle date.

 My hunch is that it is legal, so long as the points have been validated (which is probably why Garmin and other EFB's can have a setting to only download charts with changes).  The precedence of my logic is that It is legal to navigate with out-of-date NavData using a GPS so long as you verify the points have not changed, and you are not shooting a precision GPS approach, so using an out of date chart, but with verified fixes/points *may* be legal as well.  But I don't know for sure: just a guess about the charts.  (The NavData piece is true though).  Does anyone know the answer on this?

 It's a little tacky in my opinion, though for Garmin to cut off the dates (and probably only to eliminate questions from the crowd as to why some plates aren't in the cycle date).

[midlifeflyer]

2 hours ago, M016576 said:

In FlyQ you can select whether you want to download "all procedures" or just the procedures that have changed.  It also shows the entire chart, including the cycle date.  

Im not sure about the legality of using a chart that has been verified to have no changes, but is out of cycle date.

 My hunch is that it is legal, so long as the points have been validated (which is probably why Garmin and other EFB's can have a setting to only download charts with changes).  The precedence of my logic is that It is legal to navigate with out-of-date NavData using a GPS so long as you verify the points have not changed, and you are not shooting a precision GPS approach, so using an out of date chart, but with verified fixes/points *may* be legal as well.  But I don't know for sure: just a guess about the charts.  (The NavData piece is true though).  Does anyone know the answer on this?

 It's a little tacky in my opinion, though for Garmin to cut off the dates (and probably only to eliminate questions from the crowd as to why some plates aren't in the cycle date).

One can always go to the "current charts are not technically required for plain vanilla Part 91 operations" comment but. aside from that. the only real requirement, period, is that the chart be current. The chart with the coded/non-coded revision date of 14125 and Amdt 2 5May14  is the same chart, whether it was printed in 2014, 2015 or 2016 and is just as current. 

I purposely italicized printed. Paper printing was probably a main reason for putting those dates along the side to begin with.

[midlifeflyer]

2 hours ago, M016576 said:

In FlyQ you can select whether you want to download "all procedures" or just the procedures that have changed.  It also shows the entire chart, including the cycle date.  

 

I gotta look at that later. FF does the same in order to lessen download time. What I'm wondering is whether the charts not newly downloaded contain the current or the prior cycle date. If the previous date, then the Garmin concept of cutting it off makes sense and is less confusing that thinking you might have an out-of-date chart.

[Marauder]

Well, if there is any conciliation in all this, just remember it is a heck of lot easier than updating all those paper copies in the Jepp books!


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[carusoam]

The whole chopping of non-essential info is great when the supplier delivers as expected...

Unfortunately, on the debut of this efficiency step, the supplier dropped the ball miserably...

 

of course, not having current data, isn't important... until a cell tower is constructed in your path and your chart doesn't show it, and you are in IMC.

 

So, flying with non-current data is a bad idea.

not knowing the currency of the data is a bad idea in a similar way.

 

Having all your data with a red light/amber/ green light display is awesome.

the various data sets in WX7 have the update monitor on the screen while you are operating.  Including the age of the weather and TFR updates...

pilots are becoming more database managers in their spare time.  A whole lot better than being paper shufflers with the old paper charts...

ever drop a book of approach plates while while getting ready to fly the approach?

What government ninja thought approach plates belong in a book?

Look to see if FF has a method of telling you that all the data has been validated with a green light..?

Data validation is an actual job.  These people make sure what you have is what you are expecting.

Thoughts about data validity by a PP...

Best regards,

-a-

[kortopates]

7 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

Yes, I know about the Coded and non-coded revision dates. I'm referring to the cycle date. A chart with current cycle date (Nov 10 to Dec 8) printed along the left margin may have a last revision date 3 years ago but you know it is current because if the cycle date without referring to anythink else. OTOH, looking at a chart with a 3 year old revision date but no cycle date tells you nothing about whether it is current; you need to go to another source.

IOW, if you see 14125 and Amdt 2 5May14 and no other date information, you can't tell from only the chart if it is current or not. With neither of those but a cycle date of Nov 10 To Dec 8 2016, you know it is.

If the goal is to know whether the chart is current just by looking at it, the cycle date is the valuable one.

The cycle date(s) are listed in the Garmin Pilot downloads section under "Terminal Procedures & Airport Diagrams". At the main heading, as just specified, you'll see either green "Current(count)" or red "Expired(count)". If you see green you are essentially done verifying right there. If you then follow the arrow it will give you the actual "Valid to Date" in green or red "Expired on date" and its size.  

IMO, looking for a cycle date on the chart itself is vestige of paper charts. We should and can be looking at the dates of all our databases as a pre-flight action as we plan for the flight and make a final check the day of the flight. We should not be waiting till we bring up charts individually to verify we have current data, like picking up a printed chart binder, but we should be looking at the digital database valid dates before we get into the aircraft.  

When we use our installed certified panel equipment, at startup, we also have the opportunity to verify the database dates for currency. We don't wait till we load a chart. 

In comparison, Jeppesen has been doing digital charts for many years. They never have had cycle dates on paper nor digital plates (although if you printed a digital plate they would print its DB valid valid dates on the printed copy). Instead, their's or Gamin's software always make it clear what the Database dates were even though you could not gleam this from the chart itself. One thing they did benefit by was that they used only one date for your entire coverage area whether it was one state or half the world, their chart filtering s/w managed your chart DB by that coverage area for you so that it was impossible to have mix or valid and expired data. WingX Pro7 uses this same technique to manage your NOAA chart coverage and is able to also show you a single expiration data for all charts. Even though Garmin and some of the other NOAA chart hosting apps allow us to pick and update coverage selectively, it really doesn't complicate our task of verifying digital chart validity if we merely verify at the database level.  

Until this thread brought up the chart valid dates I had long since forgotten the (paper based) "cycle dates". You may prefer the older methods that worked for you dating back to when you grabbed a binder from the back seat, I personally prefer verifying it at the digital database level.  

[Bob_Belville]

12 minutes ago, kortopates said:

 

Until this thread brought up the chart valid dates I had long since forgotten the (paper based) "cycle dates". You may prefer the older methods that worked for you dating back to when you grabbed a binder from the back seat, I personally prefer verifying it at the digital database level.  

While it was nice to have a paper plate right there as I set up for and flew an approach, it was way less than nice keeping 6 Jepp binders current.

I now have current approach plates on a certified GTN, a portable 696 and a Android tablet running Garmin Pilot.  

[midlifeflyer]

3 hours ago, kortopates said:

The cycle date(s) are listed in the Garmin Pilot downloads section under "Terminal Procedures & Airport Diagrams". At the main heading, as just specified, you'll see either green "Current(count)" or red "Expired(count)". If you see green you are essentially done verifying right there. If you then follow the arrow it will give you the actual "Valid to Date" in green or red "Expired on date" and its size.  

IMO, looking for a cycle date on the chart itself is vestige of paper charts. We should and can be looking at the dates of all our databases as a pre-flight action as we plan for the flight and make a final check the day of the flight. We should not be waiting till we bring up charts individually to verify we have current data, like picking up a printed chart binder, but we should be looking at the digital database valid dates before we get into the aircraft.  

When we use our installed certified panel equipment, at startup, we also have the opportunity to verify the database dates for currency. We don't wait till we load a chart. 

In comparison, Jeppesen has been doing digital charts for many years. They never have had cycle dates on paper nor digital plates (although if you printed a digital plate they would print its DB valid valid dates on the printed copy). Instead, their's or Gamin's software always make it clear what the Database dates were even though you could not gleam this from the chart itself. One thing they did benefit by was that they used only one date for your entire coverage area whether it was one state or half the world, their chart filtering s/w managed your chart DB by that coverage area for you so that it was impossible to have mix or valid and expired data. WingX Pro7 uses this same technique to manage your NOAA chart coverage and is able to also show you a single expiration data for all charts. Even though Garmin and some of the other NOAA chart hosting apps allow us to pick and update coverage selectively, it really doesn't complicate our task of verifying digital chart validity if we merely verify at the database level.  

Until this thread brought up the chart valid dates I had long since forgotten the (paper based) "cycle dates". You may prefer the older methods that worked for you dating back to when you grabbed a binder from the back seat, I personally prefer verifying it at the digital database level.  

We seem to be in violent agreement.

 

[M016576]

11 hours ago, kortopates said:

The cycle date(s) are listed in the Garmin Pilot downloads section under "Terminal Procedures & Airport Diagrams". At the main heading, as just specified, you'll see either green "Current(count)" or red "Expired(count)". If you see green you are essentially done verifying right there. If you then follow the arrow it will give you the actual "Valid to Date" in green or red "Expired on date" and its size.  

IMO, looking for a cycle date on the chart itself is vestige of paper charts. We should and can be looking at the dates of all our databases as a pre-flight action as we plan for the flight and make a final check the day of the flight. We should not be waiting till we bring up charts individually to verify we have current data, like picking up a printed chart binder, but we should be looking at the digital database valid dates before we get into the aircraft.  

When we use our installed certified panel equipment, at startup, we also have the opportunity to verify the database dates for currency. We don't wait till we load a chart. 

In comparison, Jeppesen has been doing digital charts for many years. They never have had cycle dates on paper nor digital plates (although if you printed a digital plate they would print its DB valid valid dates on the printed copy). Instead, their's or Gamin's software always make it clear what the Database dates were even though you could not gleam this from the chart itself. One thing they did benefit by was that they used only one date for your entire coverage area whether it was one state or half the world, their chart filtering s/w managed your chart DB by that coverage area for you so that it was impossible to have mix or valid and expired data. WingX Pro7 uses this same technique to manage your NOAA chart coverage and is able to also show you a single expiration data for all charts. Even though Garmin and some of the other NOAA chart hosting apps allow us to pick and update coverage selectively, it really doesn't complicate our task of verifying digital chart validity if we merely verify at the database level.  

Until this thread brought up the chart valid dates I had long since forgotten the (paper based) "cycle dates". You may prefer the older methods that worked for you dating back to when you grabbed a binder from the back seat, I personally prefer verifying it at the digital database level.  

If that's true, then why does the faa insist on a cycle date at all?  No reason to be forced to "update" all your charts/NavData to be legal on a time basis... most don't actually change from cycle to cycle anyway.  Shouldn't you have the option to just verify prior to your flight that you're up to date for the day?  And shouldn't the FAA or NGA keep a running database of procedures updated?  

The fact is, the NavData is essentially free (it's a government service): jeppesen has the monopoly on parsing it into a database for panel gps's.  and the FAA facilitates this behavior because of the paper format that is still prevalent in some sectors of aviation due to the time it takes to print these things(I get my books of charts and then throw away the old ones every month in the military.... tons and tons of unused, wasted paper charts; continuously updated).

one day, all charts and plates will be digital, and there will be no more "cycle dates", but that day, sadly, is not today.

Edited November 16, 2016 by M016576

[carusoam]

Job,

the cycle date is always going to be needed for each chart.  It is a serial number as well as a use after and use before date...

whether it is visual on the chart or hidden out of the way on the database page is not that important.  I bet the date is left on there to keep people from guessing...

The pilot needs to know the data he is using is valid for the day he is using it.  I don't believe the FAA tells a specific way it has to be done...

Of course, if you print the chart, and it leaves off the cycle date...  there wouldn't be a way to trace it back to it's cycle date.

 

Going any further into this discussion, we are going to find electronic database training requirements for IR pilots. 

 

What do young CFIs do on rainy days, when there is no chart binders to update?

Best regards,

-a-

 

[M016576]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

Job,

the cycle date is always going to be needed for each chart.  It is a serial number as well as a use after and use before date...

whether it is visual on the chart or hidden out of the way on the database page is not that important.  I bet the date is left on there to keep people from guessing...

The pilot needs to know the data he is using is valid for the day he is using it.  I don't believe the FAA tells a specific way it has to be done...

Of course, if you print the chart, and it leaves off the cycle date...  there wouldn't be a way to trace it back to it's cycle date.

 

Going any further into this discussion, we are going to find electronic database training requirements for IR pilots. 

 

What do young CFIs do on rainy days, when there is no chart binders to update?

Best regards,

-a-

 

-a-

   I understand what you're saying, but I don't think I was clear: My point is more that we are all currently victims of the chart update cycle.  The cycles (monthly) are based on the effective amount of time it takes to review, modify and publish (in print, not digitally) these updated procedures and charts (whether that be the NGA or the FAA's realm to decide the length of validity, I do not know).  

If we unshackle ourselves from printing these things, the whole process could be "disrupted" (that's what I hear the tech wiz kids call innovation, I think):  and we could see a day where there are no longer cycle dates at all, per say, but some other method of keeping the systems, charts and NavData current and verifying the integrity of these systems.  

If I knew how to do that, then I wouldn't be flying jets in the Air Force, I'd be running that company and be busy putting jeppesen out of business.  Sadly, I'm not that talented... because for what jeppesen charges for the service they provide- nothing would make me happier than watching them squirm.

and I've never participated in the arts and crafts projects that are described using jeppesen charts: I've always been provided with entirely new charts every month... it's a massive waste of paper.  I can't wait for the day that we all go fully electronic, or at least mostly electronic, maybe with a once a year paper backup or something.  Again, I don't have the answers- I wish I did because I see this as an area ripe for innovation and improved efficiencies.

[mike_elliott]

7 hours ago, carusoam said:

What do young CFIs do on rainy days, when there is no chart binders to update?

Chase women...oh wait,,,Im not young anymore...nevermind..

[Cyril Gibb]

28 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

nope still chase women (or men) we just cant catch them these days  

And if we do inadvertently catch one, we probably couldn't remember why.....