Lancair piston engine

[ryoder]

http://www.evolutionaircraft.com/aircraft/evolution-piston/

Looks good.  How does this compare to a new Mooney?

[cnoe]

Don't let Samurai see this.

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[Hank]

Aside from the fact that you have to build the Evolution, here are the major differences that I see:

• Evolution is pressurized.
• Evolution is all composite; until the U & V are approved, all Mooneys are aluminum but will soon have some composite.
• Mooneys still have the steel cage around the cabin, Evolution doesn't.
• Evolution stalls at a much higher speed.
• Approach speeds are tremendous in Evolution.
• Evolution has very high wing loading.

I used to know someone who had a turboprop Evolution. Watching him zoom around the pattern and fall towards the runway like a rock was a sight to behold. He only got stopped on the 3000' runway using beta thrust. It is not a pilot-friendly plane, and I'm sure it is much less stable than any Mooney. Sounded cool taxiing in, mixing that turbine whine with the funky noise the prop made going from normal to beta thrust and back again. I am supposing that the piston version won't do this, losing many, many style points and lots of ramp appeal.

I'm not much of a fan of the swoopy fuselage design, though. It looks wrong, and the back seats look cramped. Big, bulbous front windshield area, and a stick for a rear fuselage, then a tail. No balance, like a tadpole with a stubby, narrow wing. But you know what they say about the beer holder . . .  

Edited April 6, 2016 by Hank

[carusoam]

Electronic ignition on an IO540 producing 350hp with a Hartzell prop.

Speeds are similar to the Acclaim at high altitude. 221kts vs 230. More an attribute of engine than air frame...

The challenge I see is the typical TPA of high performance planes.  10 knots more compared to a long body Mooney, 20 knots compared to the short bodied ones...  A little float, and your in the next county.  AOA will help for more precise energy control...

800AMU and you still need to build it yourself.

If I'm doing that, I'm going turbine...  Wait, turbine is going to cost a bunch more....  Remind me how to start building a 15 year old used plane...

If they can get 350hp out of an IO540, Wait to see what electronic ignition can do with an IO550!

Best regards,

-a-

[MB65E]

The Turbo prop Evolution is an amazing airplane.  You can approach at mooney speeds if trained. It stalls near 61kts and will cruise at 300kts. The Piston might be slightly underpowered compaired to the PT6 but in terms of certified airplanes it's probably a rocket ship that is in the new mooney price range. I had no problems landing the TP on a 2600ft strip. I was surprised how great it flew. The ailerons were heavy at 300kts but it's designed that way. 

Now the Lancair 4P is a lawn dart that refs 100kts on approach. Also,  The legacy is an amazing machine, but it to has a high ref of 100kts too. Both great airplanes if built and flown correctly.

I would love to build the EVO TP, have a chute and do 330kts (with some speed mods). However, 1.4m is a big nut to crack. 

I think your buddy you saw flying needed a little more practice.

S. Husky would like it.

The prototype piston had a cool FADEC on it.

-Matt

 

[Deb]

There seem to be two Lancair pistons to choose from.

One is the piston Evolution which is the same fuselage as the turboprop Evolution but with a Lycoming YTEO-540 iE2 350 hp FADEC engine: http://www.evolutionaircraft.com/aircraft/evolution-piston/. This airplane (about 5 years ago) was supposed to be a 270 kt airplane (vs ~300 kt for the turboprop). They are now advertising this as a 240 kt airplane with Vso 61 kts and Vs 76 kts. Their specs: 242 kts at 23 gph and 210 kts at 12 gph (~168 gals); 1600 ft for takeoff and landing; full fuel payload ~700-800 lbs depending whether you opt for a parachute. There appears to be one flying which is supposed to come to Sun-n-Fun on Wednesday (presumably with much fanfare!). I have prices for the kit (parts), but it's about $1M when it's done (including having someone build it and test it for you). I think Tom (Yooper Rocketman) is actually building his own airplane (not an Evolution), but typically one hires a professional shop to build this and you "perform" 51% of the "tasks." One issue may be the engine, in that there are not a lot of them and not much history (to say nothing of the $128,000 price).

The other option is an LX7 from RDD, a builder in Redmond, OR http://www.rddent.com/lx7.html. They take a Lancair IV-P which you give them, and for an additional $550,000 they replace the tail, the wing, avionics, have the engine overhauled (Continental TSIO 550-E 350 hp), and basically redo the entire airplane (they may have one at Sun-n-Fun). Their specs: Vso 62 kts; 260 kts at 24 gph and 250 kts at 18 gph; useful load 1500 lbs; fuel capacity 180 gals.

Both planes are composite and pressurized. Compared to the Acclaim, they both have air conditioning and icing (not FIKI), equivalent or slightly faster speeds, better range and useful loads. Wingspan is 37 ft for the Evolution and 34 ft for the LX7; both are heavier than the Mooney. 

Obviously neither are certified and the build quality depends on the builder (and possibly you, depending on one's involvement and expertise). The new Mooneys have two doors while these only have one.

[Marauder]

I'm hoping orionflt (Brian) can chime in. He is at Sun N Fun with Bob Wolstenholme, the CEO of Lancair. Bob brought one his turbine powered Evolutions to a Mooney fly-in. What a beast.

As for the IV-P, I have flown with Bob in his. It was the only GA plane I have been in that required the power pulled back to maintain speed below the

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[Shadrach]

8 hours ago, Hank said:

Aside from the fact that you have to build the Evolution, here are the major differences that I see:

• Evolution is pressurized.
• Evolution is all composite; until the U & V are approved, all Mooneys are aluminum but will soon have some composite.
• Mooneys still have the steel cage around the cabin, Evolution doesn't.
• Evolution stalls at a much higher speed.
• Approach speeds are tremendous in Evolution.
• Evolution has very high wing loading.

I used to know someone who had a turboprop Evolution. Watching him zoom around the pattern and fall towards the runway like a rock was a sight to behold. He only got stopped on the 3000' runway using beta thrust. It is not a pilot-friendly plane, and I'm sure it is much less stable than any Mooney. Sounded cool taxiing in, mixing that turbine whine with the funky noise the prop made going from normal to beta thrust and back again. I am supposing that the piston version won't do this, losing many, many style points and lots of ramp appeal.

I'm not much of a fan of the swoopy fuselage design, though. It looks wrong, and the back seats look cramped. Big, bulbous front windshield area, and a stick for a rear fuselage, then a tail. No balance, like a tadpole with a stubby, narrow wing. But you know what they say about the beer holder . . .  

You cannot judge an airplane by one owner pilot. I've seen some Mooneys flown in intersting ways. Looking at the specs shows Vso to be 61KIAS at gross; given the wing loading and shape of the wing, I would think that final approach speeds between 75 and 85KIAS would work. That's aren't quite Mooney speeds (well, they are for some) but they're aren't what I would call much higher. 

I agree that they're kind of homely on the ground. I think the look pretty sweet in the air with the gear tucked.

[orionflt]

10 hours ago, Hank said:

Aside from the fact that you have to build the Evolution, here are the major differences that I see:

• Evolution is pressurized.
• Evolution is all composite; until the U & V are approved, all Mooneys are aluminum but will soon have some composite.
• Mooneys still have the steel cage around the cabin, Evolution doesn't.
• Evolution stalls at a much higher speed.
• Approach speeds are tremendous in Evolution.
• Evolution has very high wing loading.

I used to know someone who had a turboprop Evolution. Watching him zoom around the pattern and fall towards the runway like a rock was a sight to behold. He only got stopped on the 3000' runway using beta thrust. It is not a pilot-friendly plane, and I'm sure it is much less stable than any Mooney. Sounded cool taxiing in, mixing that turbine whine with the funky noise the prop made going from normal to beta thrust and back again. I am supposing that the piston version won't do this, losing many, many style points and lots of ramp appeal.

I'm not much of a fan of the swoopy fuselage design, though. It looks wrong, and the back seats look cramped. Big, bulbous front windshield area, and a stick for a rear fuselage, then a tail. No balance, like a tadpole with a stubby, narrow wing. But you know what they say about the beer holder . . .  

Hank,

I'm not sure where you got your info in the EVO, out of all the Lancair products the Evo is the most docile and easiest to transition to. stall speed is 61 kts, cruise speed is around 300 true. the EVO is and flys like a high performance aircraft but lands like a cherokee. you definitely do not seem to be a fan of the EVO's but I can tell you that they definitely are not cramped, have a great useful load, even the piston version. oh and as for not being pilot friendly, the cockpit was ergonomically designed to reduce pilot work load. 

 

Brian 

[orionflt]

6 hours ago, Deb said:

There seem to be two Lancair pistons to choose from.

One is the piston Evolution which is the same fuselage as the turboprop Evolution but with a Lycoming YTEO-540 iE2 350 hp FADEC engine: http://www.evolutionaircraft.com/aircraft/evolution-piston/. This airplane (about 5 years ago) was supposed to be a 270 kt airplane (vs ~300 kt for the turboprop). They are now advertising this as a 240 kt airplane with Vso 61 kts and Vs 76 kts. Their specs: 242 kts at 23 gph and 210 kts at 12 gph (~168 gals); 1600 ft for takeoff and landing; full fuel payload ~700-800 lbs depending whether you opt for a parachute. There appears to be one flying which is supposed to come to Sun-n-Fun on Wednesday (presumably with much fanfare!). I have prices for the kit (parts), but it's about $1M when it's done (including having someone build it and test it for you). I think Tom (Yooper Rocketman) is actually building his own airplane (not an Evolution), but typically one hires a professional shop to build this and you "perform" 51% of the "tasks." One issue may be the engine, in that there are not a lot of them and not much history (to say nothing of the $128,000 price).

The other option is an LX7 from RDD, a builder in Redmond, OR http://www.rddent.com/lx7.html. They take a Lancair IV-P which you give them, and for an additional $550,000 they replace the tail, the wing, avionics, have the engine overhauled (Continental TSIO 550-E 350 hp), and basically redo the entire airplane (they may have one at Sun-n-Fun). Their specs: Vso 62 kts; 260 kts at 24 gph and 250 kts at 18 gph; useful load 1500 lbs; fuel capacity 180 gals.

Both planes are composite and pressurized. Compared to the Acclaim, they both have air conditioning and icing (not FIKI), equivalent or slightly faster speeds, better range and useful loads. Wingspan is 37 ft for the Evolution and 34 ft for the LX7; both are heavier than the Mooney. 

Obviously neither are certified and the build quality depends on the builder (and possibly you, depending on one's involvement and expertise). The new Mooneys have two doors while these only have one.

Deb,

you forgot the legacy that lancair offers with either fixed or retractable gear and options for the engine. the TSIO550 retractable gear version will cruise at 230kts ind, not so docile and will require some extra instruction before you can remove the training wheels. as for RDD's remake of the IVP, I have a hard time justifying the cost, at the end of the day you will spend as much taming the IVP as it would cost you to build a new piston Evo.

Brian  

[orionflt]

2 hours ago, Marauder said:

I'm hoping orionflt (Brian) can chime in. He is at Sun N Fun with Bob Wolstenholme, the CEO of Lancair. Bob brought one his turbine powered Evolutions to a Mooney fly-in. What a beast.

As for the IV-P, I have flown with Bob in his. It was the only GA plane I have been in that required the power pulled back to maintain speed below the

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Sorry Chris,

Couldn't get SnF in the schedule this week, but i see you got a ride down   have a great time.

 

Brian

[Hank]

2 hours ago, orionflt said:

Hank,

I'm not sure where you got your info in the EVO, out of all the Lancair products the Evo is the most docile and easiest to transition to. stall speed is 61 kts, cruise speed is around 300 true. the EVO is and flys like a high performance aircraft but lands like a cherokee. you definitely do not seem to be a fan of the EVO's but I can tell you that they definitely are not cramped, have a great useful load, even the piston version. oh and as for not being pilot friendly, the cockpit was ergonomically designed to reduce pilot work load. 

 

Brian 

He may have had a IV-P. Either way, it was nicely equipped and fast. Hard to fly was about managing controls, speed and descent profile, not the cockpit layout. Never wangled a ride with him, now I can't. Just not a fan of the fuselage shape. Ditto some of the other composite designs, I think they throw extra compound curves in just to emphasize it's not an aluminum structure. 

[Godfather]

Great looking plane IMO.  160 gallons of fuel and 700lbs left for the fam sounds great.  I hope they sell a ton of these to individuals who have them professionally built.  Looks like a good upgrade from the Mooney in 7-8 years...used of course I'll let someone else take the 50% new bird smell hit in value.

[orionflt]

3 hours ago, Hank said:

He may have had a IV-P. Either way, it was nicely equipped and fast. Hard to fly was about managing controls, speed and descent profile, not the cockpit layout. Never wangled a ride with him, now I can't. Just not a fan of the fuselage shape. Ditto some of the other composite designs, I think they throw extra compound curves in just to emphasize it's not an aluminum structure. 

Hank,

That sounds like a IVP, it is a fun airplane to fly and extremely fast but you don't want to get behind it. you are correct that it requires you to manage your different flight profiles carefully, you fly that plane by the numbers. Lancair put a lot of work in the Evo design to reduce the required precision but keep the performance, I personally think they did a great job (But I may  be a little bias ).

Brian  

[Godfather]

One negative about the Lancair might be the insurance cost.  I talked with two builders of completed IVP aircraft two years ago at Oshkosh.  Both mentioned insurance cost in the 14-16k range for mid time pilots.  If the hull value is 2x the insurance might reach the unaffordable level for many owner pilots.

[Marauder]

2 hours ago, Marauder said: I'm hoping orionflt (Brian) can chime in. He is at Sun N Fun with Bob Wolstenholme, the CEO of Lancair. Bob brought one his turbine powered Evolutions to a Mooney fly-in. What a beast.

As for the IV-P, I have flown with Bob in his. It was the only GA plane I have been in that required the power pulled back to maintain speed below the

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Sorry Chris,

Couldn't get SnF in the schedule this week, but i see you got a ride down   have a great time.

 

Brian

Oh no! I thought you were here! Nice looking turbo props that Lancair has here.

[chrisk]

On 4/6/2016 at 10:09 PM, Hank said:

Aside from the fact that you have to build the Evolution, here are the major differences that I see:

• Evolution is pressurized.
• Evolution is all composite; until the U & V are approved, all Mooneys are aluminum but will soon have some composite.
• Mooneys still have the steel cage around the cabin, Evolution doesn't.
• Evolution stalls at a much higher speed.
• Approach speeds are tremendous in Evolution.
• Evolution has very high wing loading.

I used to know someone who had a turboprop Evolution. Watching him zoom around the pattern and fall towards the runway like a rock was a sight to behold. He only got stopped on the 3000' runway using beta thrust. It is not a pilot-friendly plane, and I'm sure it is much less stable than any Mooney. Sounded cool taxiing in, mixing that turbine whine with the funky noise the prop made going from normal to beta thrust and back again. I am supposing that the piston version won't do this, losing many, many style points and lots of ramp appeal.

I'm not much of a fan of the swoopy fuselage design, though. It looks wrong, and the back seats look cramped. Big, bulbous front windshield area, and a stick for a rear fuselage, then a tail. No balance, like a tadpole with a stubby, narrow wing. But you know what they say about the beer holder . . .  

Friday night I saw a turbo prop presurized Lancair fly into Taylor TX for refueling.  It looked like a normal take off and landing to me.  I was really surprised by how quiet it was.    Check out the flights on flightaware.  http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N6XG You have to love the ground speeds in the 340 kts range and climb rates above 1000 fpm when above FL200.  I'd very much like to have a plane like this.  --Now I just need to figure out how to pay for it.

[cliffy]

What does a used C Mustang cost these days?

TWO blow torches, pressure, more seats, single pilot, aluminum frame,

factory built-  etc etc

[MB65E]

The used C510 market runs anywhere from 1.6 to 2.5m. However, the operating cost would be about 3x that of the Evolution guessing. Then the yearly training training cost, and then, and then. I like the Mustang, but dream of the Evolution. 

The best operating cost on a little jet is still the Eclipse. They have come a long way since they screwed everyone. 

-Matt

[Yooper Rocketman]

On 4/14/2016 at 8:15 AM, chrisk said:

Friday night I saw a turbo prop presurized Lancair fly into Taylor TX for refueling.  It looked like a normal take off and landing to me.  I was really surprised by how quiet it was.    Check out the flights on flightaware.  http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N6XG You have to love the ground speeds in the 340 kts range and climb rates above 1000 fpm when above FL200.  I'd very much like to have a plane like this.  --Now I just need to figure out how to pay for it.

If I ever get to Texas when mine is done I will get you a ride in one anyway.

I'm getting close to moving it to the airport for final assembly.

Tom

[Yooper Rocketman]

Getting close to airport time.

[Seth]

54 minutes ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

Getting close to airport time.

You have to keep us updated with this build