What Does this Instruction Mean?

[carqwik]

Tower tells you to "report a three (3) mile left base to runway XX."  Let's discuss...

Background....I've been flying for 33 years...and got yelled at by my home 'drome tower controller today for not complying with his instructions...and I've always interpreted this instruction (which we get a lot at this airport) to mean something different that what he told me today....so I'd like to find out what others think this instruction means.

As an FYI, I also made my first call saying I was "2 miles northwest of <insert name> mall" which is a well known reporting point....and he told me "so you're saying you are five (5) miles southeast of the field?"  That should reveal something about this controller's state of mind.  (Now in his defense, he was likely having a bad day given the stupid amount of traffic at KDVT this morning with a mix of foreign students, t-props, and jets.)

[M20F]

It seems the instruction is clear which is report 3 mile left base to runway XX, I do not know how you interpret it in any other way then how it is written.  You appear to have reported something else (a geographic fix) which is 5 miles SE of the field (i.e. not a 3 mile left base).  I don't fly into your airport, I don't know where <insert name> mall is so if I am on frequency, so if I where to fly there then I have no idea where you are at either.  If you are asked to report something then that is what you should report, not something you feel is appropriate.  You may want to reflect a bit on your "state of mind" in this matter as opposed to the controllers.

[CaptainAB]

I would also take that as he wants me to approach runway xx from the left base and let him know when I'm on that course 3 miles out.

[Marauder]

I have gotten something similar a few times at KILG when I was approaching runway 32 from the south. I lined myself up for a left base and when I was 3 miles out, let them know. The problem is they may have wanted you to report what would amount to a 3 mile final.

Picture might explain this better. What did they say was wrong?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Mooneymite]

I would go with drawing #2.

However, I suspect a call three miles from the approach end of the runway would mollify "most" tower controllers.

DVT?  Who knows.  That place is a zoo.

 

Edited February 21, 2016 by Mooneymite

[201er]

Or #3, 3 mile hypotenuse (direct to airport) distance while on base leg.

[gsxrpilot]

Just now, 201er said:

Or #3, 3 mile hypotenuse (direct to airport) distance while on base leg.

This.

[CaptainAB]

I'd pick B. If he wanted me on a 3 mile downwind I think he'd say that, or he would be trying to bring me after someone else in which case he would also ask me to look for them. When in doubt I always ask for clarification. I'd rather piss someone off then be a statistic.

I just flew out of Stuart yesterday and the run up area was past the runway 7 approach hold short area. I stopped at the hold short line and asked the tower, and they thanked me for asking and told me even they are confused by it. They could have just as well been jerks, but when in doubt I say ask. I've also made some stupid near mistakes, but averted them because I asked. 

[Shadrach]

17 minutes ago, 201er said:

Or #3, 3 mile hypotenuse (direct to airport) distance while on base leg.

That's what I do. I'm not sur I could accurately call 3 mile from final approach path base to final turn. First you'd have to estimate the location of the extended center line, then you'd have to estimate distance from said estimated center line. That's more estimating than I care to do unless absolutely needed. I use GPS distance to the airport for all calls.

[co2bruce]

Sorry to hijack.... I was doing pattern work today and asked to report mid field downwind on each cycle. On the 4th landing tower was talking to a foreign student approaching the airport and I could not break in until I was a mile past my base turn. He finishes with the student and yells at me for not turning base at the normal spot.........? ( " just fly your normal pattern")  I was never cleared to land, why would I turn toward the airport, and if he want me to fly a normal pattern why does he want me to talk to him on each downwind? He can clearly see me from the tower. Was I in the wrong here?

[Shadrach]

4 minutes ago, co2bruce said:

Sorry to hijack.... I was doing pattern work today and asked to report mid field downwind on each cycle. On the 4th landing tower was talking to a foreign student approaching the airport and I could not break in until I was a mile past my base turn. He finishes with the student and yells at me for not turning base at the normal spot.........? ( " just fly your normal pattern")  I was never cleared to land, why would I turn toward the airport, and if he want me to fly a normal pattern why does he want me to talk to him on each downwind? He can clearly see me from the tower. Was I in the wrong here?

I probably would have flown a normal pattern at my home airport, but understand why you did not. I do not understand why he was upset with you unless your extended DW caused a sequencing issue. Even then, if he was worth a $hit as a tower controller, it should not have phased him. 

[slowflyin]

Same exact thing happened to me last year.  In that case the controller wanted me to call a left base for a 3 mile final.   During the event I went with the bottom drawing but was quickly made the  subject of a teachable moment on the radio.  I later visited a veteran controller for guidance and without hesitation he informed me the phraseology was incorrect.

[midlifeflyer]

The bottom line is there is no official FAA guidance on what the phrase means.

Unless the controller is more specific, I have always (including the 20 years I flew out of one of the busiest Class D GA airports in the country) taken it to mean three miles from the runway threshold on the base leg of a pattern that will produce a relatively "normal" final. 

All they are really looking for is a general direction so they can visually look for you and sequence you.

[midlifeflyer]

29 minutes ago, co2bruce said:

Sorry to hijack.... I was doing pattern work today and asked to report mid field downwind on each cycle. On the 4th landing tower was talking to a foreign student approaching the airport and I could not break in until I was a mile past my base turn. He finishes with the student and yells at me for not turning base at the normal spot.........? ( " just fly your normal pattern")  I was never cleared to land, why would I turn toward the airport, and if he want me to fly a normal pattern why does he want me to talk to him on each downwind? He can clearly see me from the tower. Was I in the wrong here?

He just wants you to report in case he is distracted, But unless he tells you to extend your downwind or that he will call your base, he's expecting a normal traffic pattern.  You need to wait for "cleared to land" in order to touch down, not in order to continue to fly a normal pattern just because communication is temporarily blocked..

[1964-M20E]

2 hours ago, carqwik said:

Tower tells you to "report a three (3) mile left base to runway XX."  Let's discuss...

Background....I've been flying for 33 years...and got yelled at by my home 'drome tower controller today for not complying with his instructions...and I've always interpreted this instruction (which we get a lot at this airport) to mean something different that what he told me today....so I'd like to find out what others think this instruction means.

As an FYI, I also made my first call saying I was "2 miles northwest of <insert name> mall" which is a well known reporting point....and he told me "so you're saying you are five (5) miles southeast of the field?"  That should reveal something about this controller's state of mind.  (Now in his defense, he was likely having a bad day given the stupid amount of traffic at KDVT this morning with a mix of foreign students, t-props, and jets.)

Sounds like he did not fully comprehend your initial position call and thought you were somewhere else.

[Danb]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

I have gotten something similar a few times at KILG when I was approaching runway 32 from the south. I lined myself up for a left base and when I was 3 miles out, let them know. The problem is they may have wanted you to report what would amount to a 3 mile final.

Picture might explain this better. What did they say was wrong?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Chris as you know I'm based at KILG and that is a typical almost standard statement when landing on 32. From the south its easy the second one, fly direct to the field for a normal left base and report 3 miles out. Now your from the area and they also give report three mile left base from the northeast, this is where I have a problem with ilg I reported midfield left downwind and was told I asked you to report 3 mile left base, when I questioned the controller who would you like me to do that she curtly stated when your on a three mile left base, I mentioned to her that she wanted me to turn the entry into a cross country trip the manager grabbed the Mike and said Mooney clear to land.  I called the tower and the manager apologized that she was in training. Carqwick reported differently I would have come back that for safeties sake I was notifying you of my position.. These controllers get to touchy 

[TWinter]

I'm in camp #2 if we based it on the drawing Chris made.

 

 

-Tom

[midlifeflyer]

22 minutes ago, TWinter said:

I'm in camp #2 if we based it on the drawing Chris made.

 

 

-Tom

I'm actually in a third camp but the difference between #2 and the third option isn't significant.

[slowflyin]

If this is a duplicate post please forgive in advance.  I thought I commented but I don't see it.

This situation happened to me as well. I was 10 miles East of the field and was ask to report a 3 mile left base.   Traffic was landing to the South so this seemed reasonable.  I chose the bottom drawing and reported a base leg that was 3 miles long assuming he wanted notice before I mixed it up with any downwind or final traffic.  The controller quickly corrected me.    It seemed he wanted a base leg of normal length that would result in a three mile final.  The next day I discussed it with our local Tower Chief and he quickly dismissed it as poor phraseology.     Not to throw rocks as I've had nothing but positive interactions with controllers form many, many years but I tend to agree.  I don't think you will find "report a three mile base leg" in the controllers handbook.     Maybe report base for a three mile final.    What I learned, just ask repeat back with greater clarification.   "Report base leg for a 3 mile final, 6799V" or "Report established, three mile base leg for one mile final, 6799V"

 

[gsxrpilot]

We get this direction at KHYI every time. I've always assumed it meant "On the Base Leg, 3 miles from the airport".  So far no complaints from the tower.

[carqwik]

Well I am in the top of the drawing camp...report a 3-,mile left base always meant to me that your base leg should be set up so that you're on about a three mile final to the runway and the call point is basically about where you'd typically turn from downwind to base in a normal pattern. 

Today, the controller said over the air that my position call was wrong and I should have reported as in the bottom drawing...three miles from final although this doesn't specify where my base is relative to final.  This makes no sense to me because I could be five miles or two miles on final which doesn't help the controller for spacing.  Perhaps he really meant three miles from the airport on a base...??

And at KDVT, there is D-Brite radar so the controllers do know where everyone is...at least most of the time. 

[Guest Mike261]

Three miles from the airport on base is the appropriate place to report. If you are setting up for a three mile final and you are on base you can be ten miles out and still be set up for a turn to a three mile final. The three miles is the distance from the airport, just as it is if you were asked to report a three mile final...dont want to be changing conventions. Chances are if they ask you to report three mile base you are already pretty much on base, just way out.

mike

[Andy95W]

Three mile base if you're way out in left field:

(sigh) (groan)

Edited February 22, 2016 by N1395W

[Bob - S50]

carqwik,

 

I'm with you.  To me, a 3 mile base means on a base that will result in me crossing the final at 3 miles if I don't turn.  By the time I make the turn and roll out on final I will actually be just a bit inside 3 miles.

I'd suggest you post your question on the BeechTalk forum.  There are several ATC controllers that are on there on a regular basis and can tell what they are taught.

Bob

 

[Bob_Belville]

10 hours ago, Mike261 said:

Three miles from the airport on base is the appropriate place to report. If you are setting up for a three mile final and you are on base you can be ten miles out and still be set up for a turn to a three mile final. The three miles is the distance from the airport, just as it is if you were asked to report a three mile final...dont want to be changing conventions. Chances are if they ask you to report three mile base you are already pretty much on base, just way out.

mike

This is what i would do. And with GPS nowadays we can know when we're 3 miles from the official point on the airport. Call that out while on a left base. Be terse, especially when there's a lot of chatter on the freq.