Back up charts/navigation in Glass Cockpit

[L. Trotter]

I apologize first. New to site and unable to find specific answers (if they exist). The situation......Getting back into flying after 10 yrs. WOW! lots of changes. I am moving into a std equipped Ovation with G 1000. I intend to be flying Hard IFR (after a good bit of remedial instruction). It looks like the G 1000 will be utilizing Garmin PilotPak STD + Flitecharts ( $972/yr) for all databases.

I would like to go paperless.  I need some form of chart (enroute and approach) backup. I suppose additional GPS back up would be nice as well, should the G 1000 fail. Plan B if panel fails would be to land asap. I have the 50ish eye thing going on, so size does matter to a degree. Don't want to cover the panel or clutter an already tight cockpit  The question....Ipad vs Android vs ?Aera 769 (or equivalent). are you permitted to use the PilotPak data base on the second device or is it a another $972  to back up?

I know this is a very opened ended question, but what works for you?

thanks for the help....

[gsengle]

iPad plus Foreflight. Add stratus 2 if you want a full AHARS backup!

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[Hank]

To hold cost down, get the android pad of your choice. Lots available, at a wide variety of orices. Then get Avare, which is free and has all of the charts, sectionals, plates, etc., you want to download.

Many people will steer you towards an iPad with ForeFlight, but both are pricey options. Android and Avare are much more pocket-friendly. How much koolaid do you want to drink?

[Robert C.]

51 minutes ago, gsengle said:

iPad plus Foreflight. Add stratus 2 if you want a full AHARS backup!

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Gregg effectively described my setup (G1000 and iPad with Foreflight and FltPlan Go). I have a Stratus 1 in my flight bag so have the weather backup that way but not the AHRS of course. Foreflight is around $150/year as I recall and FltPlan Go is free.

Do you have the WAAS capable G1000?

Robert

[gsengle]

I don't get the impression that someone flying a g1000 mooney needs to save a few pennies with an android tablet when most apps are on iPad, and Foreflight is generally accepted the market leader and an excellent product...

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[gsxrpilot]

I usually agree with Hank, but this time you missed the part about the Ovation, G1000, and $972/yr subscription. An iPad, ForeFlight and Stratus2 is chump change at this point. And unquestionably the best backup to any cockpit glass.

[Mooneymite]

I'll second Hank's suggestion.

The only glass I have is a 430W.  I've found my Samsung Tab4 (presently about $120 on Amazon)+ FlightPlan GO completely satisfactory for what I do.

Sometimes people fly with me and bring all their iPad stuff.  To me it is over-kill and pretty darn distracting, but, Hey!  Whatever floats your boat.

I actually have an iPad with JeppPro on it (work issued), but really prefer my android tablet.

[WardHolbrook]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

I usually agree with Hank, but this time you missed the part about the Ovation, G1000, and $972/yr subscription. An iPad, ForeFlight and Stratus2 is chump change at this point. And unquestionably the best backup to any cockpit glass.

Amen, and just for good measure install ForeFlight on your iPhone as well after all, if one backup is good, two must be even better.   

[Bob_Belville]

I am paperless. And Pad-less. I have a GTN 750 for which Garmin gets the same $1000 per year. My back up is a GPS 696 which costs another $500/yr. 

 

[bonal]

You guys are my heroes...I'm just a VFR guy but am amazed how much info I get from just an old Garmin 296 and an IPad using Forflight. Welcome to Mooney Space Trotter.

[JohnB]

Great thread. I am considering adding more glass to my cockpit. Being used to foreflight, and all of its enhancements, it seems that I am chasing trying to buy a panel mounted system that will do almost all of the things my iPad will do now.  I think the technology race for ipad functionality is way ahead of the garmin GTN 700, and the nearest mounted competitor would be the Garmin G500 with SVT at $19k and the GTN at $18k. Ok the GTN looks very useful for its display features but the ipad features, some of which dont exist on panel mounts like actual names of FBOs on taxi diagrams, synthetic vision (can add this to the g500/1000), fuel prices, telephone numbers of airport facilities, restauraunts, waypoint flight planning and changing, ridiculously easy chart updating, far exceed my expectations for essentially pennies compared to the other prices.So no matter what I upgrade to, I will keep my Foreflight up and running!

Maybe Apple should apply for an STC for an "aviation quality"  panel mount iPAD with a cooling fan at a price of <10k?

[carusoam]

The O has a back up...

- Battery.

- Alternator (on some)

- vacuum  (pump)

I go paperless with an IPad using WingX

 

The iPad has a back-up...

- iPhone.

 

A Garmin aviation specific portable device is nice to have.  I got mine while the OP went on hiatus.  It's refresh rate is measured in whole seconds...

Visit this site with all your questions,

-a-

[L. Trotter]

Wow! you guys are great! Gone for a couple hrs and bingo-bango lots of good stuff to consider.

The plane has nonWAAS GIA63's. it does have the GFC 700 auto pilot. Don"t know what to do about the WAAS situation but that is a different matter.

The heart of the issue is  realistic redundancy for the emergency situation with a glass panel. It's a balance between reliability, functionality, cost and cockpit ergonomics. These are the elements I have been considering. If a device could also provide additional functionality (like synthetic vision which this ovation does not have), all the better. It seems the Ipad/forflight/stratus 2s would meet most of ones immediate needs should you be so unfortunate to experience panel failure.  Don't know if the android tablets have the same functionality. 

A Garmin aviation specific portable device would provide all the emergency needs + the possible added value  synthetic vision as well, but no ADS-B-in to my knowledge. Maybe the Garmin device is less intrusive when mounted on the yoke?

Do you guys prefer a mounted device (? yoke vs window vs other) or just keep it between the seats "ready to go" if needed?

I realize "to each his own" but everyone's opinion counts and has value as I consider the options. No point in re-inventing the wheel.....thanks!

 

[carusoam]

For use as a back-up AI...

The portable stuff with AHRS is best if it is not floating around the cabin.  ('Temp' mounted in the panel with power)

Losing electricity in IMC would be tricky to start finding bits and pieces, checking batteries and seeing if the Velcro is holding properly...

For use as a back-up nav device...

Not nearly as time critical.  

Ipads and others can have WAAS GPS, ADSB weather and traffic.  

ADSB out is good to have to get all the traffic all the time.  There is at least one portable box w/ADSB out.

The AHRS device will allow showing attitude on a Synthetic Vision screen.  Nice, but takes time to get it out and check it's batteries.  Best if operating all the time prior to entering IMC.

Best regards,

-a-

Note: I may be misspelling the AHRS device....(?). Check your details...

[Hector]

iPad mini mounted on the yoke works best for me. Geo-referenced approach plates need to be upfront and close so they can be part of my scan. The full size iPad was just to big for the yoke, but others here have managed to make it work.

[Bob - S50]

Since you are looking to do hard IFR, you are going to want to do charts.  For me, that's when the tablet or phone comes in.  Without WAAS you can only fly LNAV approaches.  I assume you have a VOR and ILS so you can fly those too.  If you upgrade to a WAAS GPS, you can also fly LP and LPV approaches.  I navigate with my GTN650, but I use a tablet and a phone for my sectionals, low charts, and approach plates.

Your choice, iPad or Android.  There are good programs for either.

For iPad, most people seem to like Foreflight, but there is also Garmin Pilot, WingX Pro, and probably a couple others.  Prices vary.

I use a Samsung tablet and a Samsung phone.  I have Garmin Pilot and Naviator installed on both.  Garmin Pilot is $75/year for the basic IFR package and Naviator is $35/year.  Again, there are others.

Try out the free software and see what you think.  Most products that you have to buy will also give you a 30 day free trial so try them too.  See what you like.  Look at features, ease of use, display, etc.

As for backup, that's why I have two devices (tablet and phone) with two programs each.  If one device fails, I can use the other.  If one program crashes, I can  use the other.  No single point failure will eliminate my access to the approach plates.

We have a GTN650 and do not buy the entire update package.  We don't care about SafeTaxi because most of the airports we go to are too small to have published airport diagrams.  We don't care about updating terrain because mountains don't move very fast.  We don't update obstacles (although I can see an argument for doing so).  We figure if we are VFR we will use see and avoid.  If we are IFR, following IFR procedures should keep us away from them.  We also don't fly outside the US.  So the only thing we subscribe to is the NavData package for the US.  That's only about $550/year.

Best of luck.

[Danb]

Btw $ 972 is not chump change just because some one flys a newer airplane. I fly with a G1000 also, have the Jeppesen charts on the G1000 which provides the charts on three devices for the subscription in the plane. One on the desktop and one on a mini iPad one on an iPad Air. I also fly with forefiite and a stratus two. I copy my planned landing site and my alternate (paper) I guess it's over kill plus now have my iPhone 6+ plus mounted on pilots yoke.

[Aviator]

Late to the comments but he goes anyway.  I have an Ovation 2 with a GTN 750 and 650 with the Garmin standard package at $972 and a GDL 69 for XW weather on both.

  For backup I use an Ipad with FltPlan Go.  FltPlan Go has been great it gives me what I need for backup and as noted above its free. The IPad sits on the right seat when I am solo or on a kneeboard when the seat is occupied or in turbulence. 

I do print paper copies of instrument procedures for departure, destination and alternates. 

You will love the Ovation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[gsxrpilot]

2 hours ago, Danb said:

Btw $ 972 is not chump change just because some one flys a newer airplane. I fly with a G1000 also, have the Jeppesen charts on the G1000 which provides the charts on three devices for the subscription in the plane. One on the desktop and one on a mini iPad one on an iPad Air. I also fly with forefiite and a stratus two. I copy my planned landing site and my alternate (paper) I guess it's over kill plus now have my iPhone 6+ plus mounted on pilots yoke.

Sorry Dan, I didn't mean the $972 was chump change, but that next to the $972, the ForeFlight subscription of $75 is cheap.

[DAVIDWH]

Sometimes I wonder all this techy is really necessary.

Lindberg arrived on the coast of Ireland within three miles of his projected course using an earth inductor compass, a drift sight and a stop watch.

That saying, I am a foreflight, stratus 2, GTN 750 enthusiast and never leave home without them.

[N131MA]

+1 for Foreflight + Stratus 2. Traffic, ADS-B, simple flight plan filing, very good briefing, all in one package.

A good budget option (no subscription fee) is FltPlan mobile on iPad / Iphone. All charts for the US and Canada, even geo-reference approach charts. The FltPlan app is available on Android as well but I did not try it.

[RocketAviator]

I guess I'm a lone sole here.  I have the GTN750 & 650 in concert with G500 with SVT.  I then back up with FlyQ and Clarity SV & separate battery packs.  FlyQ purchase with lifetime subscription for all plates & charts under $400.

Seattle Avionics just offered a lifetime subscription to Aspen & all other databases they provide charts for... Not sure how they can afford to do that but they did....

Wish Garmin would offer a deal like that...

Fly safe all

[midlifeflyer]

15 minutes ago, RocketAviator said:

I guess I'm a lone sole here.  I have the GTN750 & 650 in concert with G500 with SVT.  I then back up with FlyQ and Clarity SV & separate battery packs.  FlyQ purchase with lifetime subscription for all plates & charts under $400.

Not sure how you are a lone "sole" (or what shoes or fish have to do with it; sorry, can't resist) when the only thing you are lone about is the choice of EFB, and they really are ultimately all the same in terms of their basic chart and map functions.

The airplanes in my club have various types of Garmin on-board GPS from 430s to 750s. For charts, I'm using ForeFlight as my primary chart source, with an Android tablet EFB as backup. I will have used ForeFlight for 5 years next month and haven't had a paper chart in the cockpit (unless it was someone else's ;))for at least 4.5 of those.

[Hank]

Jim, you need to drink more Kool Aid!! Garmin in the panel, ForeFlight on the iPad. No choices required except for ipad size and color . . .

[I have Avare on an old Samsung Galaxy 2 tablet, works great for preflight study; still use paper sectionals and bound approach plate books in the air.]

[Andy95W]

3 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I'm curious. Why would a guy with a G1000-equipped Mooney NOT back up with Garmin Pilot and a GDL39 3D so that all of the programming logic is the same? 

I agree.  The "buttonology" matches my Aera and of course it talks to the GDL39.

My work uses Foreflight as its back up data to Jeppesen, so I get Foreflight for free- and I still prefer Garmin Pilot and am willing to pay the $75 per year.  

Did I just lose my membership in the CB club?