What's with brokers?

[N601RX]

What about neighboring states?  I know of some northern FL owners who have left their plane in Alabama for the 1st 6 months to get around the tax issue.

[bonal]

Saw what looked like a real nice F on Barnstormers today

[amillet]

WA charges a "use tax" equal to the sales tax.  You get credit for sales tax paid if purchased out of state.

[DonMuncy]

Just to nit-pick, you could have said "what's with A&Ps" or "what's with aircraft owners". I won't argue percentages, but there are good brokers like Jimmy Garrison and David McGee, and there are bad ones, like the one you were dealing with. Just like there are good and bad A&Ps  and owners. 

[Shadrach]

I would never expect a seller to pay for a prebuy inspection and would be all to happy to put up earnest money, provided it was refundable under certain terms. You can call said inspection anything you want (if "appraisal" makes you feel better), but if an IA find huck bolts sheered off of a corroded spar cap, he's going to tell both parties it's unairworthy and should not be flown. That does not mean he's going to talckle the seller in order to prevent them from taking off. I don't see how it's possible to ask a credentialed IA to "appraise" an aircraft and not have him render an opinion about its airworthiness. If said rendered opinion is that the plane is unairworthy, how does a seller legally fly it?

Edited October 13, 2015 by Shadrach

[jetdriven]

How does an IA "appraise" an aircraft without opening it up and looking inside?   A shiny M20J might be worth a hundred grand but after it needs a new stub spar and a new engine because the cam is spalled, that turns it into a 40-50 grand airplane.

[carusoam]

Take your thoughts, write them all down, call it a purchase agreement.  Use this as your guidance to work with the broker.

0) you want to see the plane before any serious talking begins. Or any money changes hands.

1) for me to travel across the country to see the plane, it requires photos and copies of all log books.

2) when you get there and like what you see.  you want to lock down that you are in the process of buying the plane. That process is going to take a few steps.  And nobody is going to come in and offer a few more amu to take it away from you.

3) a deposit is usually what it takes.  Enough to show you are serious. This sets up your schedule. It may be challenging to get your PPI done in 1-2 weeks. But, this is up to you to get it done.  You want to fly, not spend eons buying...  Accept for me, I enjoy buying machinery...

4) this first meeting is your opportunity to set the expectations. My favorites are the AW issues followed by everything in the sales brochure/advertisement must be working.

5) the PPI will be done by an MSC, but not the owner's MSC.  Put in your mechanic of choice...

6) this is where your broker really starts to shine...

- your finance company is going to need some data. Your broker has it.

- a down payment often comes in somewhere along the way.  This is in your agreement, when you pay it is after the PPI.

- your insurance company needs some details. Your broker has it.

- your plane needs to be delivered to the MSC. Your broker has it.

- your plane goes through the PPI (you paid for the PPI, it is your document) a couple things need to be updated or fixed.  All the AW and nav equipment issues get fixed by somebody both you and the broker agree on.  Agree, or walk...

7) Part of the cost of the PPI is the conversation you have with the mechanic. hopefully it is enough good news. the plane gets it's leak patched and a lightbulb replaced at the same MSC.

They deliver it back to the broker.

8) a week and a half or three has gone by, the plane is ready...

- your finance is in place.

- your down payment is ready to be handed over

- your insurance is active.  The required hours are detailed.

- you need transition training. Your broker organizes that too.  Part of the deal he chips in a few hours.

- you need a hotel for a couple of days. Your broker helps you arrange that to.

- you visit the Mooney plant on the first day of your transition training.  You really get a feel for your new ride.  It is much different than your old ride.  The first day, everything is a bit off, except the rust.  You have plenty of rust...

- day two take offs and landings are magically smoother.  The rust is gone overnight.

- day three you are flying home in IMC with your transition pilot. Worth every penny you pay him.

9) your broker gave you a pink piece of paper that you need to do something with.  You are home, you take your fuzzy memory and send it to your broker.  He emails you back what to do with your temporary registration. Or whatever that pink paper was.

10) the plane is at your home drome. You take a photo of it with your kids.  You post it as your avatar on the fledgling MS.

11) when it is done right, you have the feeling that you got your money's worth. You post what worked for you, and hope that it helps the next guy.

12) several years go buy, a new cell phone is in your pocket, you check the list.  You see the names David, Jimmy, and Bob Cabe are still in there.

13) buying a plane is expensive. You are going to pay a large price. Focus on getting everything you need wrapped in with that price.  The PPI, the transition training, fuel you use, insurance, hotels, meals those are your costs. 

14) a broker that doesn't want to send you logs is doing you a favor.  He is telling you in a nice way that you are too smart of a buyer for him or the plane. Unfortunately, you have to move on...

15) I worked with David while I was trying to buy a C in the late 90's.  I couldn't afford a nice one.  It would take more than a decade before I could afford a nice plane.  David was pleasant to work with.  He didn't make me feel like I was only a C buyer.  He made me feel like I may be back one day...

Maybe it costs more to work with the pros.  On price, on schedule, with all the details organized, the plane was home in under a month using up a couple of weekends for the most part.

Did I mention AAA, David and Jimmy...?

Some times it is OK to feel like you got your money's worth,

-a-

 

 

Edited October 13, 2015 by carusoam

[Bravoman]

Maybe I'm a bit of a bully by nature, but in any large transaction where I'm the buyer the terms of the deal are going to be to my liking or I'm out of there. My dad taught me never to get overly invested or emotionally attached in a commercial transaction. There is always another plane out there and a lot of times if the first one doesn't work out it ends up being a blessing because the next one is a better plane at a better price with better folks to work with.

[carusoam]

The PPI is an inspection that is not entered in the log books.  There is no standard to follow.  You have to set what you want with your mechanic.  If AW issues come up you want it written in the report, including photos so you can handle the discussion with the broker.  What they do is follow their professional guidance.

The lack of standards in this case makes the resources worth what you pay them.  Going all the way to KGGG, you get a known list that is performed to a known standard, by known people, managed by a well know Mooney guru.

it is not the buyers responsibility to ground the plane.  His is to buy or walk, returning things back to where they came from is expected.  If unable to return the plane because of AW issues that gets pretty sticky. The owner knows at all times where his plane is and who is flying it, share the report with him when you get it. Ask him how he wants to handle it. You still may be interested in getting it fixed.

Trying to buy a plane where the PPl finds large issues that belong to the owner like cam corrosion and tank leaks can be covered by the purchase agreement.  Owners know this can be a possibility.  It's bad news, but it's his bad news.

I am only a PP.  I used to buy and sell process machinery around the world.  The purchase agreement can be hand written.  It is a document that clears up most misunderstandings between a buyer and seller before they can be a problem. Expect that you will be thinking differently than they do from the start. We are all different to begin with. Being on opposite sides of the deal will elevate the chances of having misunderstandings.

When an owner doesn't want to take a plane to an MSC, he knows that it may have some big challenges.  It doesn't mean he is a bad guy.  It means the plane isn't going to a place that will write an 18 amu list of squawks... I've had that experience.  It needed to be done. It's like putting down an old dog.

Best regards,

-a-

Edited October 13, 2015 by carusoam

[gsxrpilot]

The PPI is an inspection that is not entered in the log books.  There is no standard to follow.  You have to set what you want with your mechanic.  If AW issues come up you want it written in the report, including photos so you can handle the discussion with the broker.  What they do is follow their professional guidance.

The lack of standards in this case makes the resources worth what you pay them.  Going all the way to KQQQ, you get a known list that is performed to a known standard, by known people, managed by a well know Mooney guru.

it is not the buyers responsibility to ground the plane.  His is to buy or walk, returning things back to where they came from is expected.  If unable to return the plane because of AW issues that gets pretty sticky. The owner knows at all times where his plane is and who is flying it, share the report with him when you get it. Ask him how he wants to handle it. You still may be interested in getting it fixed.

Trying to buy a plane where the PPl finds large issues that belong to the owner like cam corrosion and tank leaks can be covered by the purchase agreement.  Owners know this can be a possibility.  It's bad news, but it's his bad news.

I am only a PP.  I used to buy and sell process machinery around the world.  The purchase agreement can be hand written.  It is a document that clears up most misunderstandings between a buyer and seller before they can be a problem. Expect that you will be thinking differently than they do from the start. We are all different to begin with. Being on opposite sides of the deal will elevate the chances of having misunderstandings.

When an owner doesn't want to take a plane to an MSC, he knows that it may have some big challenges.  It doesn't mean he is a bad guy.  It means the plane isn't going to a place that will write an 18 amu list of squawks... I've had that experience.  It needed to be done. It's like putting down an old dog.

Best regards,

-a-

I think you mean KGGG?

[carusoam]

Memory issues....

KGGG it is!

As for being a bully, I don't  think I use that tactic until it is needed. Purchasing a long body Mooney probably doesn't benefit from hard negotiations. The sales guy isn't coming to you. He has a lot offer. It is your money and you're not giving it away. You kind of show your hand when you show up.  It is hard to show disinterest when you just came from 1000 miles away.  It is really challenging to leave emotion out of buying personal machinery, even for a professional machine buyer.  During the pro's deal, there is still emotions related to price and margin.  How many times can you walk from negotiations on a Bravo? There isn't another one on the lot 10 miles away...

My Mom always told me you get more with sugar...  Or you catch more flies with honey, than vinegar, or you can bring a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Or something like that?

Bravo man, Tell me more about the bully method and how it works.  The finer parts, if you would?

Thanks for the correction, Paul.

-a-

Edited October 13, 2015 by carusoam

[N33GG]

You need to remember the Broker is representing the Seller, and not you. 

Thus endeth the sermon.

[gsengle]

And him/her self

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[N33GG]

And him/her self

 

 

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Shouldn't be, but could be the case.  In real estate, the laws are clear and not something you want to violate.  In simple terms, Broker should represent one side or the other, put client's interests ahead of his own, and the side he/she does not represent should receive fair and honest treatment.  Real estate Brokers are required to disclose any material defects to all parties including the side not represented.  I am not aware of any laws that relate to aircraft Brokers though. 

Have low expectations, the Broker is probably not going to help you at all, unless he/she is selling your aircraft or has been retained to represent you in a purchase, keep your guard up, don't tell the Broker anything that could be used against you (eg. I would really pay up to $100k but let's offer them $80k), take nothing at face value and question everything presented.  Consider getting a professional to represent you, including negotiating deal.  I negotiate every day for a living, and I do have an advantage due to my practice, regardless of what is being negotiated.

Just don't expect much from any Broker that is not representing you, and you will do better in negotiation, and you will rarely be disappointed.

If you have problems with a Broker that is representing you, that is another discussion.

Edited October 14, 2015 by N6719N

[ryoder]

I'd probably sell mine as is where is and wouldn't agree to fix anything found at a MSC.  This is where I think I'd either buy cheap or brand new.  I hate tire kickers and would rather not sell to one.  You could write up a 100k bill on anyone's plane.  Look at my house, it needs new carpet, tile, paint, roof, etc and is ten years old.  If I put it on the market and was told they wanted it for 270 minus 200 for repairs I'd tell them to go to you know where.

[gsengle]

But as-is means as advertised. If something you advertised isn't working or the plane isn't airworthy (unless your ad says it) that's fair game. Remember the buyer can walk, and I sure wouldn't buy a plane where I couldn't kick a tire or two. Wanting the seller to live up to the goods advertised is fair.

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[chrisk]

I'd probably sell mine as is where is and wouldn't agree to fix anything found at a MSC.  This is where I think I'd either buy cheap or brand new.  I hate tire kickers and would rather not sell to one.  You could write up a 100k bill on anyone's plane.  Look at my house, it needs new carpet, tile, paint, roof, etc and is ten years old.  If I put it on the market and was told they wanted it for 270 minus 200 for repairs I'd tell them to go to you know where

I would let any reputable Mooney shop inspect my plane, provided the prospective buyer paid to get the plane there and back, and for the inspection.    I'd fix airworthy items, or something I didn't represent properly.  Other findings, which are not airworthy, but unexpected (like some corrosion) might warrant a change in price.   --Just remember, the buyer has probably spent $1000 or more on the pre-purchase inspection.  He has some skin invested and doesn't really want to walk away.

[gsengle]

That's the reality, no buyer wants to spend four figures to find misrepresentations. A buyer wants to go forward at that point. A seller should be pricing what was advertised and if everyone learns something is broken, why should the buyer be stuck with it... As is means as represented.

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[Bravoman]

Memory issues....

KGGG it is!

As for being a bully, I don't  think I use that tactic until it is needed. Purchasing a long body Mooney probably doesn't benefit from hard negotiations. The sales guy isn't coming to you. He has a lot offer. It is your money and you're not giving it away. You kind of show your hand when you show up.  It is hard to show disinterest when you just came from 1000 miles away.  It is really challenging to leave emotion out of buying personal machinery, even for a professional machine buyer.  During the pro's deal, there is still emotions related to price and margin.  How many times can you walk from negotiations on a Bravo? There isn't another one on the lot 10 miles away...

My Mom always told me you get more with sugar...  Or you catch more flies with honey, than vinegar, or you can bring a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Or something like that?

Bravo man, Tell me more about the bully method and how it works.  The finer parts, if you would?

Thanks for the correction, Paul.

-a-

I guess I had a poor choice of words. What I meant was since it his my hard earned dollars, and with a plane potentially my ass, I am going to insist that the deal is to my liking from the standpoint of making sure the plane is as represented and what I am looking for.  I won't let a broker dictate the terms, particularly on what I consider to be the essentials as I described up thread. By the same token I think I am reasonable. I look for a well cared for no damage history bird. I do not expect the seller to pay to bring the plane up to my personal standards. After I bought the Bravo ( the seller was a gem in all respects) I spent a bunch of money replacing things that were still working because I fly in the clag a lot and want the piece of mind. I paid to bring my plane to as close to new as possible, but I very much recognize that is not the standard to apply at the time of purchase of a 15+ year old piece of equipment.

Regards, Frank

 

 

[carusoam]

Frank,

Thank you for the extra detail. That is very helpful.

Best regards,

-a-

[Danb]

The broker does work for the owner

if the broker has any brains he would realize that he actually works for both, if he doesn't appeal to the buyer he makes no money, conversely if the buyer doesn't like him most likely the bad taste from him could spoil the deal, therefore the broker needs to play politics, some may appear and are sleazy so beware

therefore if I were the broker I'd go out of the way to appeal to both

it was referenced above the like for David and gang, they appealed to both parties

if I showed up and disliked the owner or broker I'd walk and possibly leave a nice plane and deal on the table

Politics 

 

 

 

 

[aviatoreb]

My Mom always told me you get more with sugar...  Or you catch more flies with honey, than vinegar, or you can bring a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Or something like that?

I thought it was that you can't get a horse to drink vinegar?

[aviatoreb]

Five years ago, I sold my last airplane, my DA40, with a broker.  He did a fine job.  From my side he seemed very fair and even headed, and it seemed as if he was representing me professionally.  He was a firewall between me and all the low ballers, and generally the need to talk to everyone at any time who wants to buy, or who is fishing.  Plus I am a business wimp, and I know it - so I know that I tend to fold and give too generous a deal - when it is small deals like I am selling stuff at a garage sale, then I am happy to give a good deal to my neighbors on an old pair of skis - bit if it is big things like selling airplanes to strangers, then well, ten thousand dollars here and ten thousand dollars there and soon you are talking about real money!  I can't afford to slip a few (tens) of thousand dollars on my price because I am a wimp.  I feel as if he got enough higher price than I was likely would have asked, and negotiated well, that I feel he more than earned his keep.

[chrisk]

When I was looking, I tried to weed out the unreasonable folks before investing to much time.  Some folks just don't get it.  I ask a simple question like "dose the plane have a damage history?".  I get a diversionary answer like "its a wonderful plane", or "it has a beautiful paint job".  I had this experience with a broker based in Carlsbad.  --and one who has tried to sell a plane here (but it has been a while).   I cut the call short and moved to the next on the list. 

Check out the thread.  The opening post gives a great example of the unreasonable broker. Buyer Beware!!! 1966 M20E $35000

 

Edited October 14, 2015 by chrisk
add broker example

[pinerunner]

I think it's still a buyers market. It was when I got my M20E 3 years ago. So if you walk away you''ll be coming across another good deal soon enough. Its easy to get zeroed in on a particular plane and forget there are plenty of others out there. Have fun!