Thoughts on purchase of M20C?

[Raptor05121]

I'd like to hear the thoughts from you M20C owners.

I'm a 24-year old pilot, 80-something hours. Currently renting a Cherokee 180. My mission calls for 4-seats, >800lb useful, IFR cross-country airplane. It doesn't help I froth at the mouth every time I see a Mooney on the ramp.

Problem is I like XCs, but I don't like handing over $600 cash every time I rent the Cherokee to go someplace (recently went from Florida to South Carolina). From Jan-July, I've logged ~80 hours, which at this rate is 160 hours per year of renting. I would LOVE to own, but not sure if its in my right mind.

M20C owners- what is your annual operating budget? My income is in the $30k/yr range, with minimal expenses. Within a year, I can easily put $10k down and finance $30k and get a decent little M20C, but I'm just worried about becoming one of those guys that can't afford to fly because of some MX squawk like a gear swing problem or leaking prop.

Size- Can I fit 4x ~180lb adults in it for the occassional hop to the next grass strip for breakfast? How's the legroom in the back compared to a Cherokee 180? (for those with time in both)

Looking on controller, there are models ranging from $32-38k, but those either have gear-ups, high-time engines, etc. I think my biggest requirement is a relatively low time <800 hrs engine that is flown often and basic instruments, but I would like to get my IFR rating. GPS would be nice, but would only drive up the price, and that puts me will into the $40k range without an annual, prebuy, etc.

Just some thoughts. I've always dreamed of purchasing, but I don't want to jump the gun and swallow something too big, too early in my life. But the long-term side of thinking is saying, why pay to rent an airplane when you could just buy one right now and save money in the long run versus renting for X years, and THEN buying. This is pure wants vs needs thing as a [insert C172/Cherokee/Tiger here] would fit my mission, but I want a Mooney.

-Alex

(Sidenote: I haven't been in a Mooney since I was a kid. If anyone in the North Florida area has a M20C they wouldn't mind letting me taking a ride in, I would happily pay for gas.)

[StinkBug]

First off, I love my C and for what you are describing it would fit the mission very well. The interior is slightly tighter than the Cherokee I trained in, but not enough to care too much. I have about 970lbs usable load, which is enough for 4 people if they aren't big, and you're not full on fuel. I've done that before, but it is tight and not for long journeys. It's also a good 35kts faster and on a gallon less an hour.

 

That said I think you will be cutting your budget very tight on any plane with your income, especially when adding in a loan payment. My plane is paid for, was not much more than your stated budget, but when I recently did the math on operational expenses (fuel, oil, annual, insurance, tie down, misc. maintenance) it worked out to right around $95/hr. That's with almost zero required maintenance beyond normal oil changes and other preventive things. At 160 hours a year that's half your yearly income, and doesn't include the cost of the plane.

[Hank]

My C is great for traveling with my wife. The useful load is 969 lb, or 669 with full fuel [capacity is 52 gal, but I leave a little expansion room on each side]. Four person trips require planning. Depending on who goes, I may need less than full tanks; once with three of my wife's cousins, two of them husky, I was limited to 34 gallons and dipped tanks while refueling to verify quantity.

 

Operating expenses are pretty well 9 gallons an hour. I change the oil myself every 50 hours; I generally add ~3 quarts between changes. Check your local supplier for prices. No GPS will hold down annual expense as well as purchase price. Tires run almost $300 each with new tubes, but rather infrequently.

 

Two things to consider:  insurance and hangar/tie down. There are many insurance threads here, including premiums; my insurance has to be paid lump sum in advance, unlike car and homeowner insurance which take monthly payments. Check your local airport(s) for hangar and tie down expense, and don't forget to include a cover if you tie down [see www.planecovers.com for good Mooney covers]. For annual, I do owner assisted, so it's often ~$1000 plus whatever parts and extra work is found.

 

Many people lump all expenses together and divide by total hours flown for "operating" expenses. I prefer to only include expenses related to Operating the Airplane in the hourly operating expenses. Things like annual, insurance, hangar, GPS updates, etc., that you have to pay every year regardless of how much or little you fly, I think of as Fixed Expenses. If you fly one hour or two hundred hours, your hangar cost will be the same but the "hourly expense" of that hangar changes significantly.

 

Good luck in your search! If you can save the price of a C in just a year or so, you shouldn't have a problem flying it.

[N601RX]

Its very unlikely that you will continue to fly at the rate of 160hr year.  As mentioned above go ahead and price insurance and hanger expenses.  Hanger prices are one of the biggest variables, It can range anywhere from $65 month to $600 month with some areas of Fl being on the higher end.  Tie downs are anywhere from free to over $200 month.  Hangers reduce the insurance cost a little and give more options for maintenance work.  Your income level may be cutting things a little tight, but at the same time if you have no other family or other commitments it may be workable.  I think I may have had more left over cash when I was your age making 1/4 of what I make now.   When I got my Mooney about 5 years ago I decided I would mostly pay for it by keeping my existing car and using the car payment to pay for it.  Now the Jetta has 459,000 miles on it and still rolling, but the plane is payed for.

[Mooneymite]

My income is in the $30k/yr range, with minimal expenses. 

I'm going to be blunt here. Forgive me.

Having $30K disposable income, is one thing, but if you're total income is $30K, that is the scenario for getting into a plane you can't afford to maintain, or fly. A walk out to your local airport will show you rows of derelict planes belonging to pilots whose priorities have changed while their income stayed the same.

It's great that flying is your priority now, but life often makes other demands of your income. Renting (like dating!) allows you to walk away with your finances intact until your disposable income permits "marriage to a plane"

[yvesg]

With your income level, I would instead get in a partnership. This would cut the risks in half (or more) financially.

Yves

[MyNameIsNobody]

I'm going to be blunt here. Forgive me.

Having $30K disposable income, is one thing, but if you're total income is $30K, that is the scenario for getting into a plane you can't afford to maintain, or fly. A walk out to your local airport will show you rows of derelict planes belonging to pilots whose priorities have changed while their income stayed the same.

It's great that flying is your priority now, but life often makes other demands of your income. Renting (like dating!) allows you to walk away with your finances intact until your disposable income permits "marriage to a plane"

+1

[Mooneymite]

With your income level, I would instead get in a partnership.

Mènage á trois!

Perfect. :-)

[smwash02]

I bought my first plane when I was 23 with an income in the realm of 65k, unmarried, no kids, no debts, paid for car, living in an apartment.

 

I bought a top notch 150 that was a bit more than 1/3 of my total income. Even in that scenario a couple annuals came up with some other bills (insurances, car issue, etc) that gave me a net cash flow of 0 or negative for the month.

 

At the same time a buddy of mine making 35k a year in a cheaper area bought a 150 Tailwheel (35k). He got so in debt from it he sold it at a loss and had to pay down the credit cards he piled the repair bills on to get it sold for 1-2 years after he had gotten rid of it.

 

He's still soured from the experience and I'd hate to see it happen to another. Starting smaller will let you fly more on less until you can grow into the next.

 

Good luck!

[carusoam]

The older you get, the more complex the finances get...

Dual income family, two kids in day care, M20C made tremendous sense...

Tie-down outside, owner assisted annuals, mid-time engine, 5,000 hour A/F...

Being comfortable with a major maintenance bill can cause an end to my flying...

Have an exit strategy that makes sense to you.

My firebird has 180k miles on it,

-a-

[Jerry 5TJ]

A good partnership is an asset for first-time airplane owners regardless of income.

[Mooneymite]

A good partnership is an asset for first-time airplane owners regardless of income.

As is a club.

[Jerry 5TJ]

I'd like to hear the thoughts from you M20C owners......

M20C owners- what is your annual operating budget? ........

 

My M20C budget is -- whatever it costs.

Some years are fairly inexpensive.

Some years not so cheap.

Never under $150 per flight hour averaged over a year.

Usually considerably higher than that. 

Cheaper to rent, but not as satisfying.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Paid-off airplanes are good airplanes.

 

80 hours of flying at $120/hour is $9600 and zero chance you're on the hook for a surprise engine overhaul.

 

Save that money for a year and a half and you have nearly $30,000 sitting in the bank for an older Mooney with older radios that you may or may not want to take into IMC.  And you still have the chance for a $25,000 surprise.

 

I would say get creative with whatever your skills are and increase your income.  Save every penny you can.  If you get to a position where you know that going into the maintenance shop for annual inspection you will be able to pay for the worst-case scenario (metal in the oil filter...engine OH), and have an aircraft return to service, then you can afford it.

 

yeah, it costs $600 to rent for a trip.  It also costs $2000+ for a good annual on an M20C with a few squawks.  That'll cover 4 of those trips you're taking once you account for the gas that you're now buying on top of that annual.

[mpg]

Ive studied buying a plane,,,   a Lot!

 

A dirt cheep old, barely good enough mooney,

Tie down, liability only insurance, BFR, 2-1000$ annuals,

Owned outright,,,       170$ a month, every month, for 2 years, fixed costs,,,   repeat!

 

Fly it 100 hrs a yr,  slow, lean, high mpgs, 40$ an hour,,,   333$ extra, a month!,,,   repeat!    503$ a month, average!

Oh yea,,   add oil....

 

A cherokee will only be a little cheeper to buy and keep,,,   But

it will cost more per hr to fly at 25 mph slower so trips take longer,

Sooo,,,  flying cost will be more!

 

A c150 will be less in both owning and flying but wont fit your mission,

It would fit mine,  But,,   they aint Cool!!

 

Im looking for the right ELSA,,  Earthstar Thundergull would work for me.

[Marauder]

I keep fairly precise records of my flying expenses (and out of sight from the wife). The range of actual cash outlay to fly my Mooney annually will range from $16 AMU to $24 AMU. The fixed costs are exactly that; plane payment, hangar/tiedown, database subs, insurance. The variable costs include fuel, maintenance/annual, fees and reserves.

I agree with the others, a partnership would be the way to go until your income can support the habit.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Shadrach]

Now is the time to build wealth, not debt. Put your desposable income into investments that that will generate a return. Renting means being able to walk away when resources need to go elsewhere. I only tell you because I wish someone had drilled that into me at 24. Getting control of finances early means enjoying life as an adult. The best way to enjoy a plane is burden free!

[HRM]

Well, I think you have been bitten by the Mooney bug and will have a hard time shaking off the effects. This thread has not helped.

 

I do not know what you are doing for $30K/year (teaching?), but it is simply not enough to own a Mooney.

 

A new Mooney is outrageously expensive and an old Mooney is as well, just spread out over time and coupled to a roulette wheel.

 

I see three options for you:

 

1) Postpone this dream until you have more wealth.

 

2) Try a flying club or fractional ownership (I have seen Ovations owned by four people, of course other issues arise, search 'fractional' here).

 

3) Get into aviation, train for an A&P license, an ATP, or similar (again, that could be expensive). Many mechanics and professional pilots feed their Mooney cravings by being in aviation.

 

 

[bonal]

When I was 24 I couldn't imagine being able to own an airplane. every one gains wealth at different rates the fact that your flying puts you way ahead of me at that age.  For me now I bought my C outright and as a pure hobby would never want to create a debt for something such as that.  If your plans are to use the plane for gaining hours perhaps to get into a flying career that might be a different matter.  IMHO I would keep flying as much as possible and finding any way to do so as cheaply as you can save save save be patient and let your income and savings grow to allow you to do it right.  Keep the cross hairs on the target and it will happen.

[gsxrpilot]

 

an old Mooney is as well, just spread out over time and coupled to a roulette wheel.

 

 

Truer words were never spoken. I spin that wheel every time I spin the prop.

 

I wanted a plane in the worst way when I was 24 and earning $28K per year. By age 47 I was in a position to buy an Acclaim with the cash sitting in the checking account. But after all the years and work to earn it, I was very happy to buy my little M20C. 

 

My C is one of the best in the country, but it seems to eat $1000 in maintenance every few months.  With the finances now in order, I don't have to choose between flying and maintenance.

 

Join a club, or buy a C150... actually just join a club.

[jamesm]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news..... but given the information that you have provided. I am not so sure if buying airplane would be a wise investment. your first annual inspection cost  is probably going to be  over $1000 easily Especially if the IA hasn't seen the Mooney before. and that is owner assisted annual. It is possible find someone to sign it off for less. I have been told it is about 16 -20 hours for annual inspection. This assumes that that the IA doesn't find anything major wrong with plane. such as rear spar corrosion or cracks or  fuel tank leak or something like a surprise AD  that can come at any time.  And even if you bought a Mooney with fresh annual that only buys you a year. then you would have come up with annual cost and insurance and tie down to name a few cost associated with owning an airplane.

And if you finance through the banks are going require insurance  which is not cheap not to mention requirements  certain numbers of hours  in complex and in make in model. I guessing that is going to be $1300 a year or more. as others mentioned tie down / hangar expenses.   This goes for not just a Mooney but any other certified  airplane.

We pay a  lot convenience having our own airplane(s). for myself  I really  can't justify owning an airplane fortunately I have been blessed to be in a position  I can afford own one but it has taken me  quite a while to get here. Like others here have said  partnership maybe viable alternative. 

fyi...    payload (full fuel 52 gal)  of  my 67C is about ~600 lbs (mine maybe heavier than most)   you can get about 3 people and stay within the weight and balance limits.

 

James

[Raptor05121]

Thanks all for the thoughts. My gut was telling me the same, but I wanted to be sure.

Local tie down is $35/mo, hangars are $155/mo (what I understand to be the lowest of the low in Florida) on a 4,000x75 paved runway w/ fuel.

I guess I will continue to save. I currently work for the county government as a 9-1-1 Dispatcher. I have thought about partnership, but at my point in life, I am on the verge of possibly moving and a plane with two owners moving around doesn't make sense. The airport I am at is small (<4 airplanes on the ramp) and is rare to see more than 1-2 takeoffs per day, so I don't think I have the basis to start a flying club.

I do have my eyes set on a Mooney so I guess in the meantime I will continue to rent and try to save, maybe in a year or two find myself with a larger income to allow me to get into one of these machines.

[HRM]

I guess I will continue to save. I currently work for the county government as a 9-1-1 Dispatcher. 

 

You are practically an ATC without the radar. The median for them is $122K--more than enough to own and keep a nice Mooney.

 

Many of them, typically the best ones, are pilots.

[RobertGary1]

The problem with airplane ownership is that you never know when a $30K-$40K repair may come up. A lot of people assume a worst case scenario is a unexpected engine overhaul. But the price you see for overhauls always assumes everything in the engine is in great shape. As an example, Lycoming adds an extra $20K to the price of an overhaul if your previous engine is not usable. In fact you must certify that the engine was in running condition when it was removed.

 

-Robert

[rbridges]

My first year cost me close to 20k between fixed costs and maintenance. The dreaded 10k fuel leak repair (bladders) also happened. Fortunately I could absorb it. It would be a shame for your plane to get ground d if something unexpected happens.