CYA 100 AOA updated pirep by request

[Bennett]

Earlier today a forum member asked me to comment (PM) on my use of the CYA 100 AOA since I have had some time to fly the airplane after having it installed on my M20J. 

 

These are my answers to his questions (He suggested that I post them on Mooneyspace)

 

1. The location alongside the compass worked out to be ideal, and this is to my surprise. I had wanted to set it into my panel, next to the ASI, but after Lonnie at LASAR (their avionics guru) took a good look at the spacing, he called me to suggest that the spacing was too tight where I wanted it. He suggested that they be allowed to install the head unit alongside the vertical compass.  He had tested the location to see if if caused any magnetic influence over the compass, and except for the initiating second of two (the CYA unit does a self test when first turned on) there was no effect on the compass. He checked with Rip (as I did), and the current in the CYA unit (after the initial self test) is too low to be a deviation concern for the compass. And this has proved itself true in flight.

 

2. Because the CYA vane is balanced (no particular position it ends up on the ground), it is possible that the red blinking light can come on, along with the warble tone, at startup and taxi. For this reason I had LASAR use a spare rocker switch in my panel to be able to turn the unit on and off. I also had an inline fuse added. And finally, we installed a 33K 3 watt resister in the audio out line.  I can still hear the warble tone clearly, without it screaming in my headset.  My practice is to turn on the unit after run-up and as I taxi to the runway. By the time I am on the runway, the self test is over (it is easy to see all the light segments turning on and off during this test).  As I roll down the runway, the lights progressively move from red through orange, and I climb out at the top of the orange, lower the nose as the gear and flaps come up, and stay in the green for the rest of the flight.  The green light is not annoying at all, but I can turn off the unit for long flights, but I have never done this. The real use of the AOA is in the turn from base to final, and then the landing phase. Works perfectly for me.  As I slow, just above the runway, the lights now progress the other way, and I always get the red blinking light and warble at touchdown.  I find that I fly the approach to landing a bit slower, and thus land a bit shorter, because of my confidence in the AOA. On a long flight, my landing weight is much less than my typical takeoff weight, which is close to gross. The AOA takes out the mental calculations to determine a lower speed on final at these lower weights.

 

3. I actually am using the AOA more than I thought I would. Don Kaye, who uses an Alpha system AOA, and I have spent some time talking to each other about the use of AOAs, and if you read his comments on Mooneyspace and the Mapalists email group, I think you will find that he and I am in agreement over the value of a good AOA system. In my opinion, the CYA system is easier to calibrate and install than the Alpha system, although Don said his installation and calibrations were also easy.  I think running wires through the wing is less difficult than tubes, and the CYA calibration is done in the air. 

 

4. Some folks like to invert the CYA display head to put  the red light at top, Not a bad idea. I think either way has its merits. Rick suggests that the red is to be on the bottom. 

 

5. Personally, I think that anyone's AOA is a good safety device, and in particular the CYA costs are reasonable both for the unit and installation.  Finally, the calibration was easy, and can be adjusted at any time (if you leave a switch in the calibration circuit - not the on and off power switch). 

[timpercarpio]

Thanks, good info.

[carusoam]

Really nice Pirep Bennet!

Thank you,

-a-

[Danb]

Bennett i agree with the location, they also talked me into installing it where yours is and was originally not wanting it there, I'm very glad I put it there it seem perfect and not in the way of your normal scan, I turned off the audio so the cues don't make my passengers concerned when on short final, I'm still trying to see how it would help in an emergency eg. Best glide etc. have not had enough time to practice those items..fly safe

Dan

[David Mazer]

The on/off switch is also useful in initial programming.  I originally had my unit on the glare shield in its own box and have moved it to a different airplane and installed it in the panel.  The panel looks better but the glare shield location was better during approach and landing for visibility and, in hindsight, I think that was better for obvious reasons

[Bob_Belville]

Thanks Bennett. We installed my CYA100 in the very top of the panel, between the BU ASI and the Aspen. The display is very narrow and can be slipped in almost anywhere. The installation of the sensor was very easy. I think I am going to use it a lot. And we left the calibration button installed for the time being just in case I want to move the top or bottom limit.

 

http://mooneyspace.com/gallery/image/36506-img-20150212-1427102732/

[xrs135]

Nice write up! How much was the install?

[Bob_Belville]

How much was the install?

In my case the kit from A. Spruce was $625. (

You'll want to add a 1A CB.

And I paid for 4 hours of my A&P's time. (I did some of the work myself r&r panels, seat, running wire to sensor.)

 

Budget about 1 AMU. I spent $926.73

[aviatoreb]

The CYA 100 is a fantastic deal compared to the alternatives. I got the alpha system a few years ago before the CYA 100 existed, and I love it - but I would perhaps get the CYA 100 if I were shopping today for price point reasons.  I got the then top of the line Alpha systems, with voice annunciation - love that - but the audible squack of the CYA100 is surely sufficient - I do think audio feedback is one of the hugely useful aspects of an AOA.

 

One thing I do have that CYA - 100 does not is a heated probe option that I got.  The voice annunciation is very cool.  "Getting slow".  Running tubes in the wing, connecting to the audio panel, wires in the wing for the heated probe, plus ~$2k for the unit I think it was $4k for the install.

 

My indicator is a round dial with bright lights, green amber blue red in the panel adjacent the ASI.  That is a pretty good spot and I can see the bright colored lights all the way to flair - but not as good as the in front of your field of view as Bennett has.  I called alpha systems a few weeks ago and asked if I could add a second annunciator for my system.  They said no - they have since I purchased done an entirely new line, and that yes with the new line I could but I would have to buy a whole new system - and they would give a discount.  Doh!  No thanks.  Oh well.  I still love what I have.

[Bennett]

By memory, I think LASAR charged me about $1,200 for the installation, including the installation of the vane in a wing inspection panel, routing the wiring through the wings to the panel and display unit, wiring of the rocker switch, the inline fuse, the audio inline resistor, and the inflight calibration. In light of other aviation costs; reasonable in my opinion. I understand that Aspen now has an AOA option that doesn't require an external vane. No idea how that works, but I am certainly curious. I didn't think an AHRS is sufficient without some sort of vane, or differential pressure. When I added an AOA function to my Dynon glass screen panel (LSA) I had to replace the original airspeed probe with a pressure differential probe, with additional tubes through the wing. I could never get it properly calibrated, and in contrast the CYA system is much simpler, and far easier to install, and to use with confidence.

[Bob_Belville]

By memory, I think LASAR charged me about $1,200 for the installation, including the installation of the vane in a wing inspection panel, routing the wiring through the wings to the panel and display unit, wiring of the rocker switch, the inline fuse, the audio inline resistor, and the inflight calibration. In light of other aviation costs; reasonable in my opinion. I understand that Aspen now has an AOA option that doesn't require an external vane. No idea how that works, but I am certainly curious. I didn't think an AHRS is sufficient without some sort of vane, or differential pressure. When I added an AOA function to my Dynon glass screen panel (LSA) I had to replace the original airspeed probe with a pressure differential probe, with additional tubes through the wing. I could never get it properly calibrated, and in contrast the CYA system is much simpler, and far easier to install, and to use with confidence.

Bennett, I noted that the probe was supposed to be closer to the leading edge of the wing than the inspection panels so I put it on the right wing at the same distance out as the pitot tube is in the left wing. Later I was told that several Mooneys had used an access panel and had no problem. But it was not that difficult to do it "right".

http://mooneyspace.com/gallery/album/14075-cya-aoa/

[mike_elliott]

 I understand that Aspen now has an AOA option that doesn't require an external vane. No idea how that works, but I am certainly curious. I didn't think an AHRS is sufficient without some sort of vane, or differential pressure.

 

This will certainly be a subject of discussion at SunNFun. Per their website, it is a simple software addition.

http://www.aspenavionics.com/aoa

 

Aspen does do innovative things that the Big G likes to emulate eventually, like the connected panel etc., to the benefit of all of us in GA.

[Bennett]

Bennett, I noted that the probe was supposed to be closer to the leading edge of the wing than the inspection panels so I put it on the right wing at the same distance out as the pitot tube is in the left wing. Later I was told that several Mooneys had used an access panel and had no problem. But it was not that difficult to do it "right".

http://mooneyspace.com/gallery/album/14075-cya-aoa/

I called Rip to ask about using the access panel on the left wing closer to the fuselage than the airspeed probe, and said that others had done this, and the system worked just fine. It made for a very simple installation.

[Marauder]

This will certainly be a subject of discussion at SunNFun. Per their website, it is a simple software addition.

http://www.aspenavionics.com/aoa

Aspen does do innovative things that the Big G likes to emulate eventually, like the connected panel etc., to the benefit of all of us in GA.

I like it...

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[PTK]

This will certainly be a subject of discussion at SunNFun. Per their website, it is a simple software addition.

http://www.aspenavionics.com/aoa

 

Aspen does do innovative things that the Big G likes to emulate eventually, like the connected panel etc., to the benefit of all of us in GA.

 

I don't make the "connection" (pun intended!) between "Aspen" and "innovation" Mike!      

 

Please do educate me. I'm a slow learner so please be patient with me.

[mike_elliott]

I don't make the "connection" (pun intended!) between "Aspen" and "innovation" Mike!      

 

Please do educate me. I'm a slow learner so please be patient with me.

I realize that Peter, so like you, Garmin will be slow to adapt an AOA to their G500, but eventually will because their competitors have it for less of course.  

Meanwhile, at least you could spend an AMU and get it for your Garmin equip't plane from AOA...but it wont say Garmin so it probably wont work right for you. Or you could wait for Garmin's eventual offering for 5K

[PTK]

I realize that Peter, so like you, Garmin will be slow to adapt an AOA to their G500, but eventually will because their competitors have it for less of course.

Meanwhile, at least you could spend an AMU and get it for your Garmin equip't plane from AOA...but it wont say Garmin so it probably wont work right for you. Or you could wait for Garmin's eventual offering for 5K

 

Mike, I don't care for an AOA gadget and wouldn't pay extra for one. 

 

But I was referring to your comment calling the connected panel an Aspen "innovation!"

[mike_elliott]

Yes I did say that, and up until Garmin "proprietized" their data stream, Connected panel would allow you to connect via wifi even their stuff to that of others. Garmin saw this, locked down their equipment via "important" firmware updates, and came out with their own version (flightstream) later on after the market was built. But you knew that.

Because of this, those that only want Garmin gear in their panel have an option of adding flightstream at least. Maybe in a couple years, if you pop for a g500, you can add an AOA also.

[Bob_Belville]

I'm curious about the technology for AOA w/o a sensor. The Aspen "know" IAS and bank angle but how does it account for weight, flap position?

[mike_elliott]

I sure don't know the answer to this, but plan to ask at SunNFun. From the pics on the supplied link, they have pointers for full flaps and no flaps.

[Bob_Belville]

Okay, I see the flap pointers. The Aspen also "knows" pitch. We'll see how they deal with weight. 

[Marauder]

Yes I did say that, and up until Garmin "proprietized" their data stream, Connected panel would allow you to connect via wifi even their stuff to that of others. Garmin saw this, locked down their equipment via "important" firmware updates, and came out with their own version (flightstream) later on after the market was built. But you knew that.

Because of this, those that only want Garmin gear in their panel have an option of adding flightstream at least. Maybe in a couple years, if you pop for a g500, you can add an AOA also.

To elaborate on Mike's comments. The "innovation" was that they were the first to market with an iPad to certified avionics data upload. It was started first with the Garmin 430. Once Garmin changed the firmware, Aspen moved forward with doing the same with the Honeywell Primus Apex line of avionics on the Pilatus.

http://www.aspenavionics.com/news/aspens-connected-panel-technology-takes-flight-on-pilatus-pc-12-ng-aircraft

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Marauder]

Okay, I see the flap pointers. The Aspen also "knows" pitch. We'll see how they deal with weight.

Bob -- isn't the whole concept of AOA warning based on the angle at which the wing will stall regardless of weight? In calibrating the CYA, I don't remember reading anything about loading up the plane to gross and repeating the process.

I might need to go back to Aerodynamics 101 training... Did I get this right?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Bob_Belville]

Chris, I think the "angle" (of attack) we need to know is to the relative wind. The aoa sensor's role is to find the relative wind. By measuring that angle directly the wing loading is accounted for so weight and bank (wing loading, which change stall speed) are accounted for. We did calibrate the CYA with full flaps. The chord and stall speed is different w/o flaps.

 

OSISTM

[PTK]

Yes I did say that, and up until Garmin "proprietized" their data stream, Connected panel would allow you to connect via wifi even their stuff to that of others. Garmin saw this, locked down their equipment via "important" firmware updates, and came out with their own version (flightstream) later on after the market was built. But you knew that.

Because of this, those that only want Garmin gear in their panel have an option of adding flightstream at least. Maybe in a couple years, if you pop for a g500, you can add an AOA also.

 

Not so fast there Mike!

 

Aspen didn't "allow" anything.

 

Their connected panel (CG100 gateway) requires the data stream first go through an Aspen MFD box! No choice.

 

Garmin Connext, on the other hand, is a direct link solution between the pilot app and Garmin panel navigators.

It allows choice and gives you a multitude of options.

 

I'd say Aspen is the one who "propriotized" the data stream! Which I'm perfectly fine with.

 

But if you're going to talk about "proprietizing" you have to be fair!