Dumb IFR questions...

[HRM]

I garnered so much good stuff from my earlier thread "IFR question" that I thought I would open up a new one.

 

I am over halfway through Collins, Taylor and Machado and now have what on it's face may look like a stupid question. That said, keep in mind that the dumbest question is the one that wasn't asked, so here goes:

 

So, you have an instrument rating and you decide you want to fly from KXXX to KYYY and the weather is IFR at KYYY. What if there is no approach at KYYY that you have the equipment for?

 

For example, in my E I have dual VOR CDI's and one of them has a GS. That's it other than a mode C transponder and a GPSMAP 295. The 295 is WAAS and has approaches of all sorts built into it, but it is HH and thus for "situational awareness" only.

 

So, I can only fly (IFR) to airports with VOR, LOC, ILS and "RADAR ONLY" approaches? What if the ILS is out at KYYY? What if the ILS goes out while I am enroute? Is there any easy way to quickly determine whether or not I am eligible to land somewhere?

 

Is there a database that only lists, for example, airports with ILS approaches? Or VOR? Or LOC? ...but not DME, GPS or ADF/NDB?

 

This really has me perplexed and I think I am missing some fundamental flight planning element.

[yvesg]

If they don't have an approach for the equipment you have I do not think you are legal to start an approach unless you can do a visual approach. I think this is equivalent to flying IFR to an airport without any approach: the expectation is that you will cancel IFR at some point above MOCA however there are many factors to consider: What if you have to go missed, what if you have a comm failure...

Lets see what the experts say... I am not too experienced IFR and Canada rules are a bit different...

Yves

[201er]

Well, part of yout flight planning includes checking notams and filing an alternate. So if the airport doesn't have the approach you need you have to go somewhere else. But let's talk a out light IFR to marginal VFR conditions. Let's say something like 5 mile vis and 2,000ft ceilings. What you may be able to do is to fly a VOR or ILS approach to a nearby airport, break out, cancel IFR, break off the approach, and then proceed VFR to your destination airport nearby.

If the approach breaks while you are enroute, you may be alerted by ATC or hear it on the ATIS. If you dont have the necessary equipment, then you will have to proceed to the alternate that you planned that has suitable weather or approaches.

The last part of my answer is that as you get more seriously engulfed in IFR flying, you may want to look into the more serious equipment. If you fly recreationally and can wait or fly easy IFR, great. If you go into airports with GPS approaches only frequently (or are based at one), you will need to upgrade your equipment. Best of luck to you.

[chrisk]

I would think you could expect vectors to the MSA or MVA, so I think you could file legally. This is because you have the equipment to get to the position. You couldn't fly an approach, and would need another airport as a destination. And you might need an alternate in addition

[carusoam]

Are you a weekend cruiser or are you trying to fly to work?

VORs will get you to most airports in NJ.

Very few have an ILS.

VOR approaches at my home drome need a ceiling above 700’ AGL or so...

There will be a handful of days that ceiling is below TPA.

GPS approaches in my neighborhood are overlays of the VOR.

An electronic copy of approach plates is helpful to answer your question.

I used WingX and paid a few bucks to get the approach plates.

WAAS based approaches can add to your artillery...

Doing them using portable equipment or expired charts, of course, would be ill advised.

For fun practice at a CB price use the MS FS.

Best regards,

-a-

[donkaye, MCFI]

As mentioned, if you don't have the equipment to fly an approach, you can't file it unless the field is VFR.  It is the same as filing an airport without an approach.  In such a case you must file an alternate.  Today, there are many airports that only have GPS approaches.  If you are going to do some serious IFR flying, I think its important to save up the money to buy a WAAS panel mounted GPS.  In many cases now LPV approaches can be flown either to ILS minimums or within 50' of those minimums.  Additionally the situational awareness of the newer equipment makes flying an approach seem as simple as walking--effortless.

[Hank]

I was based at a no approach airport when working on my instrument rating, and for several years afterwards.

I could file direct home as long as I could descend and make a visual approach. If poor weather, I would file to the nearby Class D, breakout and either cancel or go home Special VFR (it was just 4 nm from the D, right at the edge of their airspace). Sometimes I would break out in the descent, sometimes while being vectored, once or twice inside the IAF.

If I thought it would be touchy getting in, I'd file to the Delta, and put "Destination KHTW" in the Comment section of the flight plan. It didn't happen to me, but sometimes people would land at KHTS and beg / bum a ride across the River to get their vehicle.

This all happens in pre-flight planning, part of that "learn everything about the flight before taking off" thing that we all do. The Plates show which fields do / don't have approaches, then just look them up and see what they have. A gotcha that I have to look for is if my destination only has a GPS approach, I'm required to find an airport with a different approach that I can fly to use it as an alternate.

Once, heading down to 33A, my alternate was FQD; as luck would have it it was very windy, FQDs AWOS went down, AVL was in a pocket of fog, so I went to GSP and had a very wide, l-l-o-o-o-o-n-n-n-g-g-g runway for a strong crosswind landing and a 45-minute drive back into NC. Plan carefully, look things up thoroughly, and be prepared for anything.

[N201MKTurbo]

If you have an equipment failure en route you are required to notify ATC they will work with you to get you on the ground safely somewhere. Don't worry, they will take care of you.

[Hank]

quote:

"If you have an equipment failure en route you are required to notify ATC they will work with you to get you on the ground safely somewhere. Don't worry, they will take care of you from the comfort of their soft, warm chair."

 

Fixed that for you!

 

[Guess I need to reboot, I can't quote anyone this morning, and couldn't even copy-and-paste your post above. Computers!]

[moodychief]

I file IFR for every flight and I have the same set up as you except I have a Garmin Aera 510 on my yoke. Realistically, you will find that a majority of the time you will be given a minimum altitude and cleared for the visual approach. In the past six months (50 hours of flying) I have NEEDED to fly an IFR approach only twice. I routinely fly to Branson, MO in the Ozark Mountains (no ILS) and have only had to land at a neighboring airport with an ILS once in the past 7 years. I have a working ADF and have also shot an NDB-A approach to an airport in Georgia that didn't have an ILS but was below VFR minimums. As mentioned, a lot is in the planning and establishing your personal minimums.

[Marauder]

I garnered so much good stuff from my earlier thread "IFR question" that I thought I would open up a new one.

 

I am over halfway through Collins, Taylor and Machado and now have what on it's face may look like a stupid question. That said, keep in mind that the dumbest question is the one that wasn't asked, so here goes:

 

So, you have an instrument rating and you decide you want to fly from KXXX to KYYY and the weather is IFR at KYYY. What if there is no approach at KYYY that you have the equipment for?

 

For example, in my E I have dual VOR CDI's and one of them has a GS. That's it other than a mode C transponder and a GPSMAP 295. The 295 is WAAS and has approaches of all sorts built into it, but it is HH and thus for "situational awareness" only.

 

So, I can only fly (IFR) to airports with VOR, LOC, ILS and "RADAR ONLY" approaches? What if the ILS is out at KYYY? What if the ILS goes out while I am enroute? Is there any easy way to quickly determine whether or not I am eligible to land somewhere?

 

Is there a database that only lists, for example, airports with ILS approaches? Or VOR? Or LOC? ...but not DME, GPS or ADF/NDB?

 

This really has me perplexed and I think I am missing some fundamental flight planning element.

 

 

I'm going to add a little color commentary on this topic. Back in the late 80s and early 90s, I was based at an airport that didn't have an approach. If I needed to get in, I typically would fly the ILS approach to the ARSA (Class C) airport and once clear of clouds would ask for a SVFR to my airport that was along the missed approach path. I would always inform the controller of my intentions and would get their cooperation (and their radar coverage). It was fine for MVFR days.

 

That said, some of my fellow pilots at my airport didn't like that. One of them decided to build his own NDB approach based on a local radio station. I happened to be at the airport one fine IFR day when he descended down through the clouds below the height of the telephone/electric lines and over the road that paralleled the airport. He got religion after that.

 

If I am flying into an airport today without an approach, I would do some serious weather review before I launched. As Don points out, many airports now have a GPS approach to them. It was one of the reasons I bought mine. 

[AndyFromCB]

I'm going to add a little color commentary on this topic. Back in the late 80s and early 90s, I was based at an airport that didn't have an approach. If I needed to get in, I typically would fly the ILS approach to the ARSA (Class C) airport and once clear of clouds would ask for a SVFR to my airport that was along the missed approach path. I would always inform the controller of my intentions and would get their cooperation (and their radar coverage). It was fine for MVFR days.

 

That said, some of my fellow pilots at my airport didn't like that. One of them decided to build his own NDB approach based on a local radio station. I happened to be at the airport one fine IFR day when he descended down through the clouds below the height of the telephone/electric lines and over the road that paralleled the airport. He got religion after that.

 

If I am flying into an airport today without an approach, I would do some serious weather review before I launched. As Don points out, many airports now have a GPS approach to them. It was one of the reasons I bought mine. 

 

I'd have to say building your own approach is a lot easier these days in the age of GPS. Was talking to a couple of pilots based at Alpine Air Park. It appears quite a lot of them have done exactly that or combination of approaching into Afton, breaking out and following GPS points to 46U.

 

According to 46U owner, they are working on a legitimate GPS approach. I guess there are private consultants working with FAA to design approaches. I have a couple of "GPS" approaches programmed in my 796 for dark, hazy or sun in your face days/evenings but I would never use them in actual IFR.

[PTK]

HRM, if KYYY is expected to be IFR when you arrive and you don't have the equipment for or it doesn't have an approach, you can't file it.

If it's expected to be VFR when you arrive but you learn that it's staying/becoming IFR and you don't have the equipment for or it doesn't have an approach, you proceed to your alternate.

The alternate mins (600/2 and 800/2) are designed with wx on the conservative side so you can reasonably expect to make it in even with failures of equipment required for the approach. Good example if GS fails on an ILS, the mins are increased to localizer.

But in all cases, and to quote my old instruments professor, good SOP is to "always know where VFR weather is relative to your present position and route".

[midlifeflyer]

HRM, if KYYY is expected to be IFR when you arrive and you don't have the equipment for or it doesn't have an approach, you can't file it.

Yes you can. Filing a destination in an IFR flight doesn't depend on whether the destination weather will be VFR or IFR or has an instrument approach or not. You can certainly file it as a destination just like you can file a destination with an instrument approach even if it's forecast to be below minimums for that approach.

 

If you look at 91.169, the only limitations in what you file with regard to airports are

• a prohibition on filing an alternate that is forecast to be below certain minimums - that's where the language about an instrument without an instrument approach needing to be VFR is contained - with respect to the fplanned alternate, not with respect to the destination.
• the rule that requires an alternate unless certain conditions apply.

Can you point to a rule or official guidance in any FAA publication that prohibits any civil airport from being listed as the destination for any reason? Or were you thinking of the rule about alternates?

 

There are, of course, rules about what you can do once you get there. For example, if you can't go from the minimum IFR altitude to the destination airport that doesn't have an instrument approach VFR, you can't land there. Just like if you file a destination with ILS and VOR minimums but you only have VOR, you can't land there if it's below the VOR mins.

[jlunseth]

It may be worth mentioning that it is not required that, if you fly to your destination and cannot make it in because of weather or equipment failure or whatever reason, that you then fly to your alternate.  You do need to name a legal alternate where the 1-2-3 rule is in effect, and do the fuel planning to fly to the alternate, but you are not stuck with that alternate and that alternate only if you can't get into your destination.  For example, it may turn out on arrival that the weather at your alternate is no better than the unworkable destination.  You don't have to fly there and try anyway.  If you find the destination unworkable, then contact ATC and get their assistance to pick an airport that you can land at, that is either CAVU, or where you can legally fly the approach and the weather is good enough to make it in. 

 

It is worth mentioning because sometimes pilots feel boxed in by the rules when they should not be.  Safety is always first, and ATC will help.

[Cruiser]

it may be legal but why would you ever want to do that? You can't fly an approach to the airport and ATC will be expecting you to do so. It would cause a lot of undo confusion since you are going to divert to some other airport anyway.

 

Harley, as pointed out above you can FILE to any airport but you cannot fly an approach unless you have the appropriate APPROVED equipment. Some equipment will have warnings (CDI has a flag, GPS has message display) if the required signals are not working. This is why you detect navigation signals (dot/dash code) to know the signal is valid. ILS/GS signals have failed on approach, the instrument should flag the problem. 

The approaches available at every airport are identified by the IAP (instrument approach plate) for that airport, they are the only approaches that can be flown. The FAA publishes the list every 28 days. Most flight planner websites have them available to download.

[1964-M20E]

I routinely file to my field which does not have an approach.  If the weather is IFR I coordinate with the controllers and shoot the approach into the class B airport that is only 3 miles from my field and then circle to land.  I will only do this if the ceilings are above 700 feet and visibility 5miles or greater.

 

Yes you can file to KYYY but have an out should the weather not cooperate.

 

Finally, once you file your flight plan with a valid legal alternate and you take off you are not obligated to fly to the alternate.  You can select any airport after takeoff (just let ATC know early enough)and the beauty of ADSB-in weather or any other WX service is you can easily check the weather hundreds of miles before you get there and monitor it to see if it is getting better or worse.

[midlifeflyer]

it may be legal but why would you ever want to do that? You can't fly an approach to the airport and ATC will be expecting you to do so. It would cause a lot of undo confusion since you are going to divert to some other airport anyway.

 

It only causes confusion if you hide your intentions from ATC. Diversions, changes in plans, checking weather en route and deciding that landing somewhere else is preferable all take place. The key is communicate and coordinate with ATC what you want to do, not spring it on them.

 

I think one has a number of legitimate choices on how to handle the situation and, from a practical standpoint I'm not sure why someone would want file to an airport they are 95% sure they will not be able to land at.  But I don't see how  calling ATC 30 miles from the destination with  "Approach, 1234X. The weather at Podunk looks like we won't be able to get in. Change our destination to Big City." is a huge problem. Or, for that matter, "How far down can you bring us to see if we've got visual?" Are they somehow worse than filing to Big City and then, if the weather looks right, changing the destination to Podunk. Or using the approach into Big City as a way to get down to VFR and then break it off to fly over to Podunk.  I don't really see any one of them as being intrinsically better or worse than the other two.

[midlifeflyer]

I routinely file to my field which does not have an approach.  If the weather is IFR I coordinate with the controllers and shoot the approach into the class B airport that is only 3 miles from my field and then circle to land.  I will only do this if the ceilings are above 700 feet and visibility 5miles or greater.

 

 

We used to do that during my instrument training 20 years ago. We flew out of a small airport on the edge of BDL's Class C (ARSA then) and, when the weather was low but acceptable, fly the approach into BDL and break it off to go the 10 NM to home. 

[HRM]

As usual, MooneySpace comes through...I feel much better now.

 

To summarize:

1. A pilot plans an IFR flight from KXXX to KYYY and prudently^† (see #3) makes sure that there are approaches at KYYY that his aircraft can make.
2. To make sure that KYYY has approaches he can make, he must check all the approaches at KYYY, there is no automatic; i.e., computer app^††, that will do this for him although most EFBs will call up all the approach plates for an airport.
3. If the airport the pilot wants to fly to does not have an approach he can do, he can still go and 1) hope for VFR when he gets there, or 2) go to his alternate, or 3) employ a clever plan that most likely will involve help from ATC.
4. The wise pilot keeps track of where VFR is at all times.
5. The rules for alternates are stricter since it is the alternate.
6. The airspace is moving to GPS and ultimately a WAAS approach certified GPS will get you into anywhere, including DD^†††.
7. If anything unexpected approach-wise happens ATC will most likely bail you out assuming you have radio contact. Barring that, NORDO rules apply so you can k*ss your *ss goodbye if in deep soup.

 

^†not required to do by FAR.

^††an app that you would put the approaches you can do in and it would show airports supporting those approaches in an area where you wanted to go.

^††Sometimes deep dookey, but in this case deep debt.

[midlifeflyer]

HRM,

 

Not bad but I't toss in a couple of possible modifications:

To make sure that KYYY has approaches he can make, he must check all the approaches at KYYY, there is no automatic; i.e., computer app^††, that will do this for him although most EFBs will call up all the approach plates for an airport.

 

I don't know where you are in your instrument training but, whether you are using an EFB or an app or print them from the Internet or use nice old-fashioned paper approach books, al of the instrument approaches available at an airport are easily accessible by the name or identifier of the airport. It's probably the very easiest part of your preflight planning job to look at them and ascertain whether there are any approaches you can use and what the weather minimums for those approaches (or none at all) are. so you can make decisions. 

If anything unexpected approach-wise happens ATC will most likely bail you out assuming you have radio contact. Barring that, NORDO rules apply so you can k*ss your *ss goodbye if in deep soup.

Never rely on ATC to bail you out from poor decisions. Even when declaring an emergency, the very first thing ATC will say in response is "What are your intentions." "Your" intentions, not theirs. I'm not sure if it was mentioned in this thread or elsewhere but there's a good presentation floating around now about a pilot who loses his gyro instruments, attempts an approach, can't maintain directional control, is vectored, enters visual conditions and, with ATC prompting, elects to head back into the soup rather than stay in visual conditions and fly to another airport. 

[BKlott]

I'll echo the sentiment that you do not want to rely on ATC to "bail you out" of anything. There have been instances of guys blindly following vectors from ATC and flying themselves into the sides of mountains. You really need to be awake, alert and at the top of your game when flying in IFR conditions.

Another excellent book, which I personally think should be required reading for all Instrument Rating candidates, is Pilot Error, by the Editors of Flying Magazine. These are stories of actual IFR accidents with transcripts of the actual ATC communications with the Pilots involved. You can learn a lot from their mistakes.

On a positive note, a Mooney is a very good airplane for IFR conditions in that you have a lot of performance to work with. If you need to proceed to an alternate, the Mooney gives you a lot more range to work with in finding a more suitable place to get down. Flying low performance airplanes like mine in Instrument conditions, limits your options.

[PTK]

Yes you can. Filing a destination in an IFR flight doesn't depend on whether the destination weather will be VFR or IFR or has an instrument approach or not. You can certainly file it as a destination just like you can file a destination with an instrument approach even if it's forecast to be below minimums for that approach.

If you look at 91.169, the only limitations in what you file with regard to airports are

• a prohibition on filing an alternate that is forecast to be below certain minimums - that's where the language about an instrument without an instrument approach needing to be VFR is contained - with respect to the fplanned alternate, not with respect to the destination.
• the rule that requires an alternate unless certain conditions apply.

Can you point to a rule or official guidance in any FAA publication that prohibits any civil airport from being listed as the destination for any reason? Or were you thinking of the rule about alternates?

There are, of course, rules about what you can do once you get there. For example, if you can't go from the minimum IFR altitude to the destination airport that doesn't have an instrument approach VFR, you can't land there. Just like if you file a destination with ILS and VOR minimums but you only have VOR, you can't land there if it's below the VOR mins.

Ofcourse you can file to any destination. In the op's hypothetical I should've said "shouldn't."

No reason to file to a destination knowing it's IFR and has no approach for your equipment.

We all know what's legal isn't always prudent.

[Marauder]

Never rely on ATC to bail you out from poor decisions. Even when declaring an emergency, the very first thing ATC will say in response is "What are your intentions." "Your" intentions, not theirs.

So true... We had an accident here in Delaware in 2013 that took the life of a physician. Read through the accident report and pay attention to the last paragraph. He did everything but declare an emergency.

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/GeneratePDF.aspx?id=ERA13LA111&rpt=fi

Had he declared, he would have still needed to ask for the approach into Dover AFB. But why would overlook that option, especially if you flew a number of misses?

[47U]

And I suppose that Dover tower would have denied a clearance to land unless an emergency was declared. Sad story, that one.

Military instrument procedures might need extra study, though. The DME is not received on the ILS freq, or even listed on the approach plate. It's collocated with the TACAN and the VHF freq is found on the low chart, (110.0). I don't have a lot of IFR time so I'm wondering, is that common knowledge? Beale is the same way. I learned that the hard way practicing approaches there.