Hello all

[Thunder669]

My name is jake and I am based at 3DA dalton airport in flushing mi. I have been flying rc all my life, ultralights for about 6 years and received my private ticket just over two years ago. The plan when moving up from ultralights to my private was to start going places. Well with my busy work schedule it always when I do have the free time to go somewhere someone else has the club plane reserved at some point during the day so for 2 years all I have done is mostly local flying. Me and my girl decided it is time to sell a few other toys (my minimax I scratch built and a highly customized mustang) and buy our own plane. I have always had a fascination with mooneys and thinking now is the time to go that route but I have never actually been in one. First thing everyone asks me is have you actually sat in one yet??? They are very small. I can't imagine it is much tighter then our club Cherokee 140. This brings me to the other part of the equation. I want a family plane for 2 adults and 2 kids and from what I have read I want to stay away from c+e models and look for a f model. I know there is zero leg zoom in the 140 for the kids in the back so I know we need something with a longer fuselage and if I am right an e to an f is like going from a 140-180 or archer like my buddy has. Please let me know if I am off on any of my info here. If I can sell these other toys quick I hope to be seriously looking by mid summer for something. I have been looking at arrows, bonanzas, 182s, but am always drawn back to the mooneys. So as long as I can get in one and me and the family can be somewhat comfortable that is where I plan to focus my search. Hope I haven't bored you all to death and if any of you are in my area would love to meet you and your birds. Thanks for your time

[Jeff_S]

We get a lot of folks into Mooneyspace with your same line of questioning. You may want to do some searching or just reach through other threads to get some answers, as all your questions have been addressed many times over.  You seem to be on the right path, though, in thinking through your requirements. I think you need to question just how much of your time will be spent carrying your entire family, and how far you want to go and the length of your trips. The reason I ask is that no Mooney is really a "fill four seats, gas and luggage and go" type of plane. It's true that the longer bodies have a bit more legroom, but they are heavier and often have other weight components that still limit their total useful load. You just have to think about what your average flight profile and needs are.

 

As to Mooneys being "small" that is a big misconception. Once you get seated in the Mooney you have plenty of room. You do sit lower in the cabin and stretch your legs out, like in a sports car, but the shoulder room is fine as is the head room. I'm 6'3" and the only time I hit my head on the ceiling is in turbulence.

 

Good luck with your search...it's one of the funnest parts of plane ownership, contemplating all your options.

[Oscar Avalle]

First congratulations!!! and welcome to the group. You will find a lot of, mostly, very interesting conversation and wonderful advice on Mooneys. Over time this side has become my usual stop in my daily cibercommute to work.

 

Second, Mooneys and kids. I own a M20C. I love it, but mostly because it was been my project for many years and now it is where I want it to be in terms of avionics, engine etc. Would I buy another one...? Most likely I would go for a longer body. Before I bought my M20C I owned a PA 28 160. The room in the back of my M20 C is similar to the one of my PA28. My two kids fit into the backseat, but they are 5 and 3. I believe they will fit without any major problem until they are 12. If you want to fit a teenager or young adult into the back of a M20C, you could do it for a shorter flight...

 

But overall M20C are great.

 

Oscar

[yvesg]

What I have realized with the years is that when your kids are getting big enough so you have trouble fitting all this in the aircraft (size and/or weight) this also becomes the time when they prefer to stay home (and are old enough so they don't need a babysitter anymore) and go sleep to their friends house etc. I have 5 children and one day a friend told me: This airplane is way too small to carry your wife and kids... I replied promptly: You don't get it.... this is to get away from them! lolll

Flying for my kids at one point became no more motivating than coming with me to the hardware store....

One nice thing is that eventually you become a grand-parent... grand-kids fit perfectly in any Mooney... and by the way, one of my 3 daughters just announced us yesterday that she is pregnant... good timing....

Welcome aboard.

Yves

[RocketAviator]

All my kids are grown and have families of their own. I went from a turbo Saratoga to a Mooney Rocket and there are and have been several times I needed a full 4 seat payload such as the Saratoga offered but I sure enjoy the speed. I simply can't justify what I want like a TBM 850 so like much in life I compromise and am thankful for what I do have. Mooney is an exceptional flying machine . Many of the Mooniac's here are absolutely great help, support, while it is true that ALL of THEM OTHER Mooniac's are somewhat eccentric they are all the best GA group I have ever been involved with in my 30 years of flying!

So welcome to Mooneyspace I wish we were closer I'd be very pleased to have you sit in and fly with me in my Ol Bucket of Bolts if desired.

Good luck and keep us posted!

[pinerunner]

I have an E model and I would regard it as a 2 plus 2 plane, like some sports cars. If you're not very tall there would be plenty of room for kids in back. If you are tall it gets to the point where the front seat is right up against the rear and a rear seat passenger isn't really possible except maybe if they're an amputee. I think the Mooney reputation for being cramped is a bit exaggerated. I'm 5'7" and at 225 lbs I have no problem with shoulder room. I also don't need pedal extenders even though I only have a 29" inseam and in fact when I adjust the pilots seat I still have one notch of seat travel left.  You do have to step down into the cockpit quite a bit and the passengers seat is right in front of the door with the floor NOT lined up with the door so there's a slightly athletic move getting in. My instructor, an older gentleman, winces a bit getting in and out.

 

If you can afford it most people consider the J model the all time favorite since it has extra room and improved aerodynamics. The F gets you the extra couple of inches of leg room and higher red line speed (I've wondered why for a long time now) but is a little slower in practice than the E. I wouldn't be too quick to pass over E's and C's though. I've had me and three teenagers in mine for short flights and they didn't seem to mind. I think two adults and two children would be OK if the adults weren't very long legged. 

 

I like my E and don't long for an F. I came into a lot of money I'd probably just trick out the E better. 

[scottfromiowa]

I have an E model and I would regard it as a 2 plus 2 plane, like some sports cars. If you're not very tall there would be plenty of room for kids in back. If you are tall it gets to the point where the front seat is right up against the rear and a rear seat passenger isn't really possible except maybe if they're an amputee. I think the Mooney reputation for being cramped is a bit exaggerated. I'm 5'7" and at 225 lbs I have no problem with shoulder room. I also don't need pedal extenders even though I only have a 29" inseam and in fact when I adjust the pilots seat I still have one notch of seat travel left.  You do have to step down into the cockpit quite a bit and the passengers seat is right in front of the door with the floor NOT lined up with the door so there's a slightly athletic move getting in. My instructor, an older gentleman, winces a bit getting in and out.

 

If you can afford it most people consider the J model the all time favorite since it has extra room and improved aerodynamics. The F gets you the extra couple of inches of leg room and higher red line speed (I've wondered why for a long time now) but is a little slower in practice than the E. I wouldn't be too quick to pass over E's and C's though. I've had me and three teenagers in mine for short flights and they didn't seem to mind. I think two adults and two children would be OK if the adults weren't very long legged. 

 

I like my E and don't long for an F. I came into a lot of money I'd probably just trick out the E better.

Wise Counsel, all. +1

[Seth]

What you seem to be describing is the Mooney F.  However, the C is a better bargin for now.  The question is, do you want to own a C for a while until the kids get big, and then sell it and get an F, or simply get the F now?

 

If I had more than 3-5 years of backseaters in the smaller ranger, I'd consider the C as it is less expensive to start.  You can pick one up in the $30k range, and a nice example in the $40k range.  If you can do a lot of work yourself to slowly improve the low cost items with an A&P to sign off some of the required items, you'll be fine and then you'll sell it in about 3-5 years and buy a nicer F or J that you've saved for, has the rear leg room, and then truly update that the way you want.

 

If you want to customize your airplane for you with newer radios, GPS in the panel, nice seats, paint job, etc . . . then get the F now so that you can enjoy your hard earned work, vs putting that in a C and never getting your money back at the sale.

 

I'd personally get the C with basic radios.  Get an Ipad with a GPS Bluetooth adaptor for a moving map and situation awareness.  Get your IFR rating with the basic instruments, wax it, clean it, and maybe do some upgrades that cost very little.  At the same time, put money aside so that when you sell your C in 3-5 years, you'll have the extra cash to either buy the next plane outright, or put more down on an F or J.  It is hard to move up from an F to a J as it's 30k more for 10 knots, but it's more than just speed.  Newer airframe, better avionics, lost of other small changes.

 

I had an F, and upgraded to a Missile as I didn't want to spend all that money just to get 10 extra knots.  I'm sure some of the E owners feel that way too.

 

-Seth

[scottfromiowa]

I would buy the J NOW. Don't put money into vintage (C,E,F), like I did...BUY THE J. You get speed improvements...standard...you get a newer airframe. You are getting a bargain right now on a J. I could afford a J now. Couldn't afford ten years ago at the prices then. Market is NOT strong. Get more with a J....Great cross country airplane. Get one that has been flying with an auto-pilot installed as well as a 430W. Fly the hell out of it. You won't regret your decision. There is PLENTY of room in a J.

That said, I love my E...

[scottfromiowa]

and then sell it in five years for a Missile and go REALLY FAST.

[rbuck]

Congrats on your decision and welcome to Mooney Space! This site is one of the most helpful anywhere and has a great community. Hopefully they'll be able to answer any other questions you have, too. 

I'm still a relatively new Mooney owner, only had my C for a year. But I looked into it because I enjoy cross countries. I can't speak completely to the kids, as I have none of my own, but it does seem to me that I could fit two young kids in the back of my plane pretty easily. The comment above about kids fitting in a short body (like my C model) up until about 12 seems right. I can also fit myself, a passenger in front, and one adult passenger in pack pretty comfortably, too. 

Just like everyone seems to say, find the plane that fits your mission. I wanted a good cross country plane, and I couldn't be happier with my C. It's great for that. I've flown mine from Washington state to Georgia (yep, I moved) and all over the place in between in just one year. It's an absolutely great cross country plane. Mine has quite a few upgrades (I would be buying a lot of J parts if I ever had to replace them), but it's great. Mooneys of any size are hard to beat for speed and fuel economy. It has plenty of room for what I need, too. As mentioned, you sit lower, and it has the appearance of being smaller, but once you're in, it's really not much different than most planes as far as space--just the way you sit. I'm not going to load it up like a Bonanza, but the times I need that are very few and far between. 

I will say, though, that buying a plane for the first time can be an interesting experience. So, from me, I'd recommend finding the plane that you want early on-if nothing else, just so you only go through all that once. 

Wish I was closer, I'd let you come try it out and take a look for yourself. 

If you have any other questions, feel free to private message me. 

Good luck!

[Seth]

I would buy the J NOW. Don't put money into vintage (C,E,F), like I did...BUY THE J. You get speed improvements...standard...you get a newer airframe. You are getting a bargain right now on a J. I could afford a J now. Couldn't afford ten years ago at the prices then. Market is NOT strong. Get more with a J....Great cross country airplane. Get one that has been flying with an auto-pilot installed as well as a 430W. Fly the hell out of it. You won't regret your decision. There is PLENTY of room in a J.

That said, I love my E...

 

That's a good point as well.  The market could be the best you are going to see, but maybe not.

 

If you are going to put money into an airplane, get the one you will keep the longest. 

 

-Seth

[Bob_Belville]

"Thunder" you've received a lot of good advice already. I would add that when looking for a 30 or more year old plane there are probably more important issues than whether it is a C, E, F or J. While the F and J have 10" more back seat leg room, they won't automatically have more useful load. My E can and certainly has carried 3 & 4 adults on 2 hour or more legs. The back seat folks generally comment that they had more room than in the back of the bus in an airliner.

 

So, while I agree there seem to be bargain prices on Js at the moment, be careful to give proper value to the expensive elements. Engine time - the difference between a fresh engine and a run out one might approach $30k, panel - the difference between legacy radios, no autopilot etc minimal engine instruments and a modern panel is more than that $30k. Add to those considerations the airframe and aesthetics - has the plane been hangered? Paint, interior, neglected maintenance, possible corrosion...  Finally, you should be aware that Cs Es and Fs may be original or they might have been modified with many of the tweaks that allowed the J to get 20 knots out of the same 200 hp. 

 

If I were in your shoes I would look at all 4 models and try to find a bird that the prior owners had taken good care of and spent real money modernizing. You'll pay twice as much as he/she did for anything you have to add.

 

Happy hunting! 

[fantom]

 

 

If you are going to put money into an airplane, get the one you will keep the longest. 

 

 

 

....and the one that suits your mission, your ability, and your pocketbook the best. None of us knows what the future holds, and as you spread your wings in a 201/J you'll better discover  where your headed.

[carusoam]

Or keep the one that goes the fastest, efficiently?

Best regards,

-a-

[DaV8or]

The best advise is what you already got before you came here. Go sit in one. Like others have said, once inside, all is well in the F and later. However, the Mooney might very well have the smallest cabin door of any certified, four place airplane. It does require some dexterity and flexibility to actually get in. 

 

I took my 80 year old Dad flying in my plane for the first time yesterday. He's a little guy, but not so spry on his feet, or flexible anymore, so getting in and out was a bit of a challenge. It is for nearly any one who isn't seasoned in a Mooney. It's similar to getting in and out of a PA-28, just even tighter.

 

Your mission includes kids, so it is wise to plan on a F,G,J or K (and potentially by extension, Missiles and Rockets), but age matters. If you have very young children, A,B,C,D and E will be just fine initially, but as they grow and you keep traveling as a family, you will likely want more. However, I personally would not do as some suggest that you buy your last airplane first and go straight for the Bonanza, because as others have pointed out, you really don't know what your kids are going to want to do when they get older and you may find yourself spending a lot more money on a big airplane that can haul a lot of stuff only to find out they don't want to go anymore.

 

I recommend doing as many seem to do, buy a Mooney as an in between plane. After renting, but before the Bonanza. If finances increase and you have a lust for more, but the kids don't really come along much anymore, a long body, big bore Mooney might just be the ticket. Same fuel burn as a Bonanza, just much faster. You may find out that the Mooney is your last plane.

 

Anyhow, find a Mooniac near you and go sit in one. Likely there is someone here that can help.

[Thunder669]

Thanks for all the great advice guys. I am 6'2" so that is part of the problem for the backseat passengers. And the kids are 10-12 but kinda small frame and then my daughter who is 14 is with is once in a while. Probably the most hours will be going back and forth picking her up so just the two of us or if my girl has the day off of work and goes along them three. Other then maybe the once every couples years all 4 of us going to Florida most of the trips would be in the 1-2 hour range at mooney speeds. I have put most of my focus into engine sine I know that is biggest expense on any plane and I am looking to buy a bird a will keep for many years to come. I have seen the f executive in the for sale section and have seen it advertised elsewhere and that looks to be a great bird and the kind of deal I'll be looking for. Again thanks for the warm welcome and keep the great advice coming, every bit of it is appreciated

[Super Dave]

I'm 6'3", 240# and I find my F model offers plenty of room. As an experiment, I've positioned the front seat and then climbed in the back to see what it would be like to ride in back with "me" as the pilot, and my knees were not even close to touching the front seat.

One other thing to consider is that your family may not necessarily want to ride "adults in front, kids in back". My wife prefers to ride in back with our 9yr old, while the 7yr old likes riding up from with me.

[Marauder]

I'm 6'3", 240# and I find my F model offers plenty of room. As an experiment, I've positioned the front seat and then climbed in the back to see what it would be like to ride in back with "me" as the pilot, and my knees were not even close to touching the front seat.

One other thing to consider is that your family may not necessarily want to ride "adults in front, kids in back". My wife prefers to ride in back with our 9yr old, while the 7yr old likes riding up from with me.

Not all of us tall people are built the same. Like Dave, I sit pretty far forward in my F. A lot has to do whether you are torso or leg long. If your legs are long for your height, you will sit a little further back. I happen to be torso long and this gives my back seat passengers a little more room.

[BigTex]

What I've found in my C, if you have an adult in the backseat that's anywhere near MIL-Spec isn't an issue.  If they have long legs, they can set slightly sideways.  In adding a 4th passenger, I have to start leaving fuel behind which digs into most of my intended missions.  So for me, it's two person long distance trips, three for shorter (2-3 hour) trips and only local flights with 4 on board.  The only time I really wish I had a mid-body plane is when I'm packing for a trip.  That additional 5" of baggage would really come in handy.  I find I run out of room before hitting the baggage weight.

 

As far as avionics go, these planes are for traveling so I personally would not consider purchasing any Mooney no matter what model unless it has an operational auto-pilot (preferably w/Alt hold) and WAAS GPS.  These two are very expensive and it's much cheaper if you find a plane that already has them.  other items like engine monitors, etc can be added later.

[chrisk]

As others have said, buy your plane with the expensive upgrades already done.  A  WAAS GPS, a good auto pilot, good paint, and recent tank strip and reseal.   --Just understand doing these things later may easily exceed the purchase price of your plane.  Buy one that has lots of recent use and has been well cared for.

[DaV8or]

Consider that the ADS-B requirement is only 6 years away. The heart of that requirement is having a panel mounted GPS with WAAS. This component alone is expensive to install at this date, so I would put that high up the list of must haves. Also, since you seem to be shopping vintage Mooneys, be aware that a lot of the popular speed mods you see on other people's planes and even advertised on some people's sites are actually no longer available. They are also typically pretty expensive to install, so if you're entertaining the idea of getting a nice clean stock F and little by little turning it into a J, don't. Those days are over.

 

If you have a need for speed on a budget, you are far better off buying a decent J with crappy radios than a nice stock F. Of course, Fs with lots of speed mods do come up from time to time and then they do represent a real bargain sometimes.

[Thunder669]

We'll once I get this stuff sold I hope to be shopping in the $50k range. I have seen a number of nice f models (like the one listed in for sale area on here) in that range but most of the j models seem to be more up in the $80k and above range. As nice as that would be I want to make sure at the end of the month after payment and insurance and maintenance costs I still have money left for all that wonderful avgas. I want a bird to fly as much as possible, not look fancy but sit in the hangar.

[BigTex]

One thing to keep in mind is to set aside around 10-20% of the cost of the plane to fix deferred or other maintenance issues that crop up the first year.  Almost without exception everyone has spent in that neighborhood fixing "stuff" during the first year so make sure that's in your budget.  So that $50K aircraft when likely cost you $60k.  Something to keep in mind when shopping.

[bonal]

It's always a balance of mission and money. For some the mission is more critical for others it's the money that determines what compromises our choice. As for ADS-B since I don't have it I will wait for as long as I can and hope that technology brings the price down as it does with almost all things. I would love to afford a modern Mooney but thankful for what I fly. Our bird has low times looks good and flys pretty fast. We don't have kids and only fly plus one occasionally so the short body works out fine if I had 2 kids I'd kill myself. Oops I mean I would buy a long body.