Buyer Beware!!! 1966 M20E $35000

[tonyk628]

On the surface it looks like a nice project plane (slap and interior and paint on her and enjoy)... who knows what's underneath and the broker won't let you look.

 

So this plane was just listed for sale by a reputable broker in Lousiana for $2x,xxx.  I had put an offer in the day after the new broker offered to buy the aircraft.  I was going to buy it from him, up until 2 days ago for a very fair price.  

 

The aircraft is listed as "recent seal"  (It was a patch, done at Don's shop in 2012), it has a weep in the right tank.  

 

Glass is crazed over, and the plane sat outside.  Interior has some rips and is a 1 according to the last broker, paint has rust showing through.  (no mention of SB-208A/B compliance even though I asked)

 

Don said he annualed the plane in 2004 and it showed abnormal cylinder wear, and there was no mention that any had been replaced since 2004.

 

The real reason I didn't buy this plane was I wanted to take the plane to Don Maxwell's for a prebuy/annual.  The new broker current seller said "anyone who takes a '66 Mooney to a service center is a moron."   

Edited January 14, 2014 by tonyk628

[Bob]

50 since bottom overhaul.  Never heard that one before.  How do you get to the bottom, without touching the top of the engine?

[AndyFromCB]

50 since bottom overhaul.  Never heard that one before.  How do you get to the bottom, without touching the top of the engine?

 

Really easy. Done on lycomings all the time when the camshaft/case/bearing goes. You take the case apart, the bottom overhaul and mount the cylinders back on without doing anything to them. 

[tonyk628]

I wasn't concerned about the bottom end, it was the sitting outside for years in Louisiana and being told I could not have a Mooney qualified mechanic inspect it....he literally said I can have any shop that is NOT a MSC do an annual.

[chrisk]

When I was shopping for my plane, I ran across this dealer.   I can't remember if it was a phone call or an email, but communicating once was enough for me to walk away.   --Unfortunately, I don't remember the details, but I'm thinking I asked a few questions and got answers that were deflections.

 

As for the reseal.  I was under the impression that Don did not want to mess with full strip and reseals.  My guess is this was a tank leak patch.

 

And from you description of the general condition, I would probably walk away from this plane.  You would probably be better off paying twice the price and getting a well cared for plane.  It's not to hard to spend big money fixing an old plane.   New windows for 4K, new paint for 12K, new interior for 8K, fuel tank strip and reseal for 8K, $1500 for a dinged nose truss, etc.  Then you can think about avionics.   --And this all assumes there are no problems with the engine.  Looking at the controller real quickly, I saw this plane, which I know nothing about.  They are asking 39.5K .   --Just saying it might be a lot less of a project, and not all that much more.

[DanM20C]

That would be one heck of a plane in airworthy condition.  An E with long range tanks and Ray Jay Turbo?  Throw in a portable O2 tank and a couple empty Gatorade bottles and you are set!

[Alan Fox]

http://darisaircraft.com/index.php?option=com_inventory&view=aircraftlisting&id=1728513

 

On the surface it looks like a nice project plane (slap and interior and paint on her and enjoy)... who knows what's underneath and the broker won't let you look.

 

So this plane was just listed for sale by USAaircraft in Lousiana for $27,000.  I had put an offer in the day after this broker offered to buy the aircraft.  I was going to buy it from him, up until 2 days ago for a very fair price.  

 

The aircraft is listed as "recent seal" while this is true (done at Don's shop in 2012), it has a weep in the right tank.  Gear pucks are shot, engine mounts are shot, the engine hoses are shot, suspected rust in the turbo, but I didn't get to check that out.  

 

Glass is crazed over, seal is dry rotted and the plane sat outside.  Interior has some rips and is a 1 according to the last broker, paint has rust showing through.  (no mention of SB-208A/B compliance even though I asked)

 

Don said he annualed the plane in 2004 and it showed abnormal cylinder wear, and there was no mention that any had been replaced since 2004.

 

The real reason I didn't buy this plane was the current broker.  He agreed to sell me the plane twice and continued to change the terms of our agreement.  In the end my only requirement was to get a prebuy at Don Maxwell or any other MSC, and he refused to let a MSC look at the airplane.  He said "you never take a 50 year old airplane to service center, they will tear the airplane apart"  (kind of the point as a buyer).  He purchased it as is where is on Friday for $20,500.

You get what you pay for... 

[tonyk628]

You get what you pay for... 

Alan, I'd say we are finally in agreement on something.  No hard feelings.  Still in the market if you want to talk.

Chris, you are correct it was a patch not seal in 2012.  I've been looking at that one a lot.

 

Dan, I thought the same thing.  Problem is I could not verify if it was in AW condition, and the price seemed a little too good to be true.

[triple8s]

"You get what you pay for..."

If you're lucky!

[darigi]

It is nothing but Sour grapes!!!

Just cause i did not 'trust' Tony to fly our newly acquired Mooney to a MSC or anywhere, he is putting incorrect information out.

Neither him nor i have ever SEEN the Mooney in question in LA.

A reputable shop that maintained it to high standards for the doctor verified and vouched for the bird.

I wouldn't sell it to him because he ticked me off with his novice, pushy and other conduct unbecoming of an officer.

Yes, there is a minor weep on one wing, paint is oxidized, other than that i do not know of any other discrepancies.

I thing it is a solid airplane, which will make a good project to fix cosmetically without having to worry about firewall forward.

[Alan Fox]

It is nothing but Sour grapes!!!

Just cause i did not 'trust' Tony to fly our newly acquired Mooney to a MSC or anywhere, he is putting incorrect information out.

Neither him nor i have ever SEEN the Mooney in question in LA.

A reputable shop that maintained it to high standards for the doctor verified and vouched for the bird.

I wouldn't sell it to him because he ticked me off with his novice, pushy and other conduct unbecoming of an officer.

Yes, there is a minor weep on one wing, paint is oxidized, other than that i do not know of any other discrepancies.

I thing it is a solid airplane, which will make a good project to fix cosmetically without having to worry about firewall forward.

Seriously Darigi I have been here for years , over a thousand  posts , and I still get my balls broken , If he wants to pay to move it to a shop and back let him.....If he is willing to invest a little money he may actually be a buyer and not a tire kicker... I offered to let an MSC check my plane out , but we cant even get together on price ... No worries SOMEONE will buy it...... I would not sell a plane to anyone who did not have an A&P check it out first ...... Last one I sold , I moved it 200 miles to an IA , he found a bad exhaust ant the deal still went through , for asking price I may add ...... Yes he is a lot to take , but why sweat it ??? someone else will buy the plane.....I would have MY AGENT do the flying though , No one flys my planes unless I am in the left seat......

[Marauder]

I feel like I am stepping into a Ménage à trois or a repeat of Peyton Place? Who is Darigi? The selling broker?

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[tonyk628]

He "thinks" its a solid plane though he has never seen it in person, and he is unaware of discrepancies becuase he purchased the plane as-is where-is.

 

I offered to pay for a ferry pilot of Dari's choosing to ferry the plane to Don Maxwell's shop, arguably one of the best and fairest Mooney shops around.  He told me this plane would not go to a MSC because they will "tear (him) a new ***hole."  and "Anyone who wants to take a 66'Mooney to a MSC is a moron." 

 

A few people on this forum would disagree.

[Marauder]

Oh, I get it now.... It is a Ménage à trois.

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[Marauder]

My advice to all... "Walk away" Life is too short to be arguing over this stuff. There are other Mooneys out there to buy, as there is others buyers to sell to...

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[BigTex]

He "thinks" its a solid plane though he has never seen it in person, and he is unaware of discrepancies becuase he purchased the plane as-is where-is.

I offered to pay for a ferry pilot of Dari's choosing to ferry the plane to Don Maxwell's shop, arguably one of the best and fairest Mooney shops around. He told me this plane would not go to a MSC because they will "tear (him) a new ***hole." and "Anyone who wants to take a 66'Mooney to a MSC is a moron."

A few people on this forum would disagree.

I take my 65C to Don's place a couple times a year for its annual and other stuff. My wife has called me a moron... Guess she's right!

[KSMooniac]

It is nothing but Sour grapes!!!

Just cause i did not 'trust' Tony to fly our newly acquired Mooney to a MSC or anywhere, he is putting incorrect information out.

Neither him nor i have ever SEEN the Mooney in question in LA.

A reputable shop that maintained it to high standards for the doctor verified and vouched for the bird.

I wouldn't sell it to him because he ticked me off with his novice, pushy and other conduct unbecoming of an officer.

Yes, there is a minor weep on one wing, paint is oxidized, other than that i do not know of any other discrepancies.

I thing it is a solid airplane, which will make a good project to fix cosmetically without having to worry about firewall forward.

Maxwell's shop is the most logical place for a PPI for any Mooney in the region, and if a seller won't agree to let it go there (at the buyer's expense, and with the seller's pilot) then it is time to walk away from the deal b/c there is something bad lurking below the oxidized paint and other maladies that shouldn't be a deal-breaker.  

 

Just because the seller in this case that hasn't even seen the plane doesn't mean that there are no other discrepancies!  Just because it is a "cheap" plane doesn't mean it is a deal, and it could in fact take a lot of money to make it airworthy by normal standards.

 

FWIW, I took my plane to Maxwell's shop for my PPI 7 years ago this week, and he is 2+ hours away from here.  My seller went with me and hung out all day while the inspection was done.  He learned a bit, and of course I learned a lot.

[Alan Fox]

And buyers remember , you are probably (unless you are very lucky) going to spend 5 to 10 % of the purchase price on squawks the first year , if this is not in the budget , you should rent.....

[Marauder]

And buyers remember , you are probably (unless you are very lucky) going to spend 5 to 10 % of the purchase price on squawks the first year , if this is not in the budget , you should rent.....

You're the reason I loved living in NJ (although there were more reasons not to -- like the friggin traffic). Straightforward and to the point. --- he is right... Don't expect to buy a plane and have it be turnkey. There will be things you want done and if not, things done to you...

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[chrisk]

Maxwell's shop is the most logical place for a PPI for any Mooney in the region, and if a seller won't agree to let it go there (at the buyer's expense, and with the seller's pilot) then it is time to walk away from the deal b/c there is something bad lurking below the oxidized paint and other maladies that shouldn't be a deal-breaker.  

 

Just because the seller in this case that hasn't even seen the plane doesn't mean that there are no other discrepancies!  Just because it is a "cheap" plane doesn't mean it is a deal, and it could in fact take a lot of money to make it airworthy by normal standards.

 

FWIW, I took my plane to Maxwell's shop for my PPI 7 years ago this week, and he is 2+ hours away from here.  My seller went with me and hung out all day while the inspection was done.  He learned a bit, and of course I learned a lot.

 

When I bought my plane, I had the owner take it to Dugosh.  I paid for the fuel and an Annual.  He agreed to fix any airworthy item.  Now, if I had found something I really didn't like with the plane, I was on the hook for fuel and an Annual, or about $2K.  --So if I walked away from the deal, I would have spent 2K with nothing to show for it.  This seemed fair to me.

[tonyk628]

The plan was to pay Don's flat $995 prepurchase with the option to turn it into an annual if nothing was uncovered.  I offered to pay for the ferry pilot not just fuel for the 200 mile flight.

 

I had budgeted $20k for paint interior and glass, but my big concern was corrosion, and wanted a MSC to get eyes on it to make sure the skeleton was ok before I put the dress on her.  I was going to be paying $22k as is +ferry/inspection cost.

 

My search continues, and having owned and scraped a Mooney to corrosion, I agree with what most of you are saying. 

[orionflt]

Yea, and I think Alan bought your mooney and parted it out, you did say it was a 63 C right.

[tonyk628]

No it was a '61 C, that I sold to Lucky and the gang down at ASOD back in November of 2005.

[tonyk628]

N78950 SN 1984 it was a C..... AW date in 1961... model year 1962... 

[darigi]

For whatever its worth..

the moony, N6098Q is scheduled to be picked up this saturday and flown to Don Maxwell's shop to fix the weep, which he

supposedly fixed 18 months back.