Cross the Atlantic with a Mooney

[fantom]

I think I get it....just not for me.

 

[flyboy0681]

I think I get it....just not for me.

 

 

I had a flatbed seat to and from Paris on a 747 and still couldn't sleep.

[AmigOne]

But this is an English only forum and instead you should use the word "kohones" like in "Holly Kohones"

 

José

Then maybe you should change your name to Pilot

[adrian]

I'm planning this trip for sometime soon, taking an M20E back home to Europe.  Probably leave soon after Oshkosh.

 

Insurance - you will need to meet European legal minimum liability insurance requirements.  The quote from my US insurer was an additional $1000 premium.  This covered me to make the ferry flight.  The European insurer that I will use charged a much lower amount, but required a pilot on board who had done 5 single engine Atlantic crossings.  I'm taking a friend with me who has done about 300 at the last count, so I'm going with the European proposal.

 

Routing.  The route that piloto suggests (Goose Bay to Narsarsuaq) requires HF radio (it is a requirement for the whole of the Gander Oceanic control area, at altitudes below 25,000ft).  I am told by several ferry pilot friends that the Canadians police this requirement.  The non-HF routing is via Iqualuit (CYFB) then Sondrestromfjord (BGSF) then to Reykjavik - with a stop between the last two if you feel like it at Kulusuk, on the East coast of Greenland (BGKK).  This routing is a bit further, but it is legal without HF, the legs are much shorter and it gives you more options.  Flying Goose Bay to Narsarsuaq, an alternate is likely to be a long way off, and fuel planning becomes critical.  CYFB to BGSF is 487nm, and there are reachable airports to the North and South - or a return to Iqualuit is feasible.

 

Customs.  You might get away without it, but you would be well advised to get a customs broker in Europe to give you a T1 form for your aircraft, showing that it is in transit in Europe and will be returning to the US.  This shows that you don't have to pay sales tax on the aircraft.  Some European customs officers are a bit zealous, and a ramp check without the appropriate paperwork would be very tedious.

 

To be legal for IFR in Europe, you should have a DME.  And there are lots of approaches that allegedly require an ADF.  IFR flightplans must comply with the European routing computer's idea of sensible routes...  which are anything but.  A (free) subscription to www.eurofpl.eu (great site created by an American ferry pilot) will solve the routing problems.

 

Have fun!

[khedrei]

Reviving an old thread here...

Do people do these trips often?  And do people seek company from curious individuals in the community.  I figured it would always be nice to have another pilot on board.

If so, I have lots of spare time this summer and would love to take a trip like this to learn more about it.  Maybe I will work up to doing it myself one day. 

If anyone knows anyone....

[ArtVandelay]

Given the equipment and fuel required, I’m guessing an extra pilot along for the ride may not be welcomed.
Life raft
Ferry tanks
Spares,tools

Fuel alone will eat up 600+ lbs
Captain 200 lbs
You are left with less than 200 lbs for everything else,.

[khedrei]

Depends on the plane and the route. 

 

I know of someone who flew a 182 with a passenger. And I've heard talk here about people going in pairs.

 

Solo ferry flights are a different story. I'm obviously inquiring about a trip that can take 2 people. I weigh 165 and pack light. Just thought I'd throw it out there. People obviously get the experience from somewhere and I doubt it's from YouTube videos alone. I'm not trying to convince someone take me along and fly over gross. 

[N131MA]

I just did a crossing from Chicago to Germany through the northern route. Updates on gas prices and insurance:

Airports with avgas and paved runways in northern Ontario and Quebec: CYMO, CYGL, CYKL, CYYR, CYVP.

Iqaluit sells a 52 US GAL barrel for ~CAN $450. After that fun starts: Sondrestrom and Reykjavik were around EUR 3/liter, UK and Germany EUR 2.50/liter. Ouch.

If you are planning to stay in EU for a longer time, keeping your US insurance and an insurance from an EU underwriter in parallel is an option. US underwriters cover usually NA, EU underwriters offer global coverage w/o NA. No minimum ferry flight experience required.

Edited July 14, 2018 by N131MA

[gsxrpilot]

8 minutes ago, N131MA said:

I just did a crossing from Chicago to Germany through the northern route. Updates on gas prices and insurance:

Airports with avgas and paved runways in northern Ontario and Quebec: CYMO, CYGL, CYKL, CYYR, CYVP.

Iqaluit sells a 52 US GAL barrel for ~CAN $450. After that fun starts: Sondrestrom and Reykjavik were around EUR 3/liter, UK and Germany EUR 2.50/liter. Ouch.

If you are planning to stay in EU for a longer time, keeping your US insurance and an insurance from a EU underwriter in parallel is an option. US underwriters cover usually NA, EU underwriters offer global coverage w/o NA. No minimum ferry flight experience required.

Would you mind sharing your routing? Here or in a PM would be fine.

[N131MA]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

Would you mind sharing your routing? Here or in a PM would be fine.

Sure! Happy to support with any further information.

KBUU - CYAM (CAN port of entry) - CYGL (gas stop) - CYFB (overnight stay) - BGSF (gas stop) - BIRK (overnight stay) - EGPK (gas stop) - EDVE

 

[ArtVandelay]

Sure! Happy to support with any further information.
KBUU - CYAM (CAN port of entry) - CYGL (gas stop) - CYFB (overnight stay) - BGSF (gas stop) - BIRK (overnight stay) - EGPK (gas stop) - EDVE
 

So what was approximate cost with fuel, custom fees, hotels, liferaft rental, etc?

[McMooney]

I really want to do this one day

[mike_elliott]

10 hours ago, N131MA said:

I just did a crossing from Chicago to Germany through the northern route. Updates on gas prices and insurance:

Airports with avgas and paved runways in northern Ontario and Quebec: CYMO, CYGL, CYKL, CYYR, CYVP.

Iqaluit sells a 52 US GAL barrel for ~CAN $450. After that fun starts: Sondrestrom and Reykjavik were around EUR 3/liter, UK and Germany EUR 2.50/liter. Ouch.

If you are planning to stay in EU for a longer time, keeping your US insurance and an insurance from an EU underwriter in parallel is an option. US underwriters cover usually NA, EU underwriters offer global coverage w/o NA. No minimum ferry flight experience required.

Ya Peter...still waiting for you to pick me up

 

[Jerry Pressley]

I did this trip before GPS or Loran C in a Meyers 200. The Loran available at that time required a big screen with LOP lines so went without.  I did find out that the place to learn to use the ADF is not 800 miles from Frobisher in a snow storm.  As most of you know the terrain in that area precludes any sort of landing.  The Meyers had 80 gallons and I had a 55 gallon drum in the back seat which was also my means of floating in case of water landing.  Used a trailing wire antenna with HF which failed as soon as left Frobisher en-route Godthab.  In those days avionics were not as reliable as today.  Frobisher to Kef in Iceland took a day but they did not permit leaving the airport building so slept in a chair.  Next morning they presented a file with all the weather etc which I was billed a few hundred dollars after arriving home. From there is was about 1300 miles to Biggen Hill if I remember correctly.  In Iceland I met a young Lady that was going the other way with passengers in a Mooney.  She ferried planes on that route for Mooney factory.  Her extra fuel was a small tank in the baggage compartment. No more than 5 or 10 gallons.  I had a raft, dry suit, rifle survival rations etc.  When leaving Gatwick on the way home I had the rifle under my arm walking around the airport.  I ask a Bobbie what to do with it till i left.  He suggested Left baggage to check it. They were full so i carried it for few hours till the plane left.  I also carried it into the airliner and put it in the overhead bins. HMMMMM things have sure changed. 

[Jim Peace]

advice from a person who has done it......don't do it.

my route was from goose or gander to Iceland (so long ago I can't remember) and then down to Europe.

This is what multi engine turbine airplanes are for.  More engines the better.

[Jerry 5TJ]

Years ago I had a video (VHS, so probably about 1990) made by 3 guys who flew their F model from Detroit to Ireland and back.

The video showed what they carried—raft, vests, food, rifle, axe, tent, sleeping bags etc. They also carried 10 gallons of gasoline in containers on one leg, which they added at a stop where no gasoline was available.  They had HF Radio — a ham transceiver and a trailing wire antenna crafted using a fishing reel in the hat shelf.  

Nowhere did they mention weight.

Their approach into BGBW was featured.  It was overcast as they flew the back ADF approach (with no radar surveillance and ~25 degrees of magnetic variation) up the fjord.  The pilot can be heard muttering “holy shit” several times.  

They made it, both ways.  

It was fun to watch.  

[FloridaMan]

On 7/4/2013 at 10:48 AM, Piloto said:

Assuming in an Ovation or Acclaim with 130 gals. One day to CYYR or CYYT, one day to BIRK or LPAZ, one day to Europe. Total fuel one way 300 gals. At $13/gal = $3900. Fees about $300. Round trip about 7 days and $8500. Coming back to the US you may have to stop at BGBW due to winds. The Acclaims offers no real advantage over the Ovation since you have to throttle back to get 1800nm range. The Ovation has the advantage of more flexibility on leaning because no need to worry about  exceeding TIT. On these trips speed is not the issue but fuel efficiency. Prevailing winds in the North Atlantic are from the west so coming back via LPAZ will require a ferry tank. Flores LPFL in the Azores has no AVGAS. In the event that you encounter strong headwinds best option is to fly low at about 3,000feet, better than swiming. ALWAYS CHECK WINDS BEFORE DEPARTING.

 

José

Depending on conditions in the North Atlantic, I've heard of turbines flying at low altitudes having compressor stalls and engines lost due to salt accumulation. 

[FloridaMan]

On 7/4/2013 at 10:48 AM, Piloto said:

Assuming in an Ovation or Acclaim with 130 gals. One day to CYYR or CYYT, one day to BIRK or LPAZ, one day to Europe. Total fuel one way 300 gals. At $13/gal = $3900. Fees about $300. Round trip about 7 days and $8500. Coming back to the US you may have to stop at BGBW due to winds. The Acclaims offers no real advantage over the Ovation since you have to throttle back to get 1800nm range. The Ovation has the advantage of more flexibility on leaning because no need to worry about  exceeding TIT. On these trips speed is not the issue but fuel efficiency. Prevailing winds in the North Atlantic are from the west so coming back via LPAZ will require a ferry tank. Flores LPFL in the Azores has no AVGAS. In the event that you encounter strong headwinds best option is to fly low at about 3,000feet, better than swiming. ALWAYS CHECK WINDS BEFORE DEPARTING.

 

José

Depending on conditions in the North Atlantic, I've heard of turbines flying at low altitudes having compressor stalls and engines lost due to salt accumulation. 

[aviatoreb]

On 7/4/2013 at 11:54 AM, yvesg said:

Fuel in Canada is $8 a gallon in the southern regions. Would be surprised if it is below $10 a gallon up north. Pleas recompute!

 

Yves

I was so very happy yesterday when I stopped on my way home and found fuel for $3.87/gal in Siren, Wisconsin - KRZN.  That's almost enough to make me want to become a cheese-head!

WOW - I have crossed the Atlantic many times - in big commercial airplanes, crammed into the little seats feeling miserable, but looking out the window over the Atlantic and either clouds, or ocean, but usually clouds, I think to myself that crossing the Atlantic doesn't look like a lot of fun.  I totally get it when it comes to buying and selling airplanes.  It makes financial sense to fly it rather than disassemble and re-assemble.  Or even a bucket list to do once for the achievement.  But it does not look like a fun thing to do on a regular basis.

So flying across North Dakota yesterday was....not so exciting either...quite featureless terrain from the air.  But at least I was in shorts and not an immersion suit.

Question - I always wondered.  Suppose you need to ditch in the North Atlantic and you manage to keep the airplane upright.  Is there enough time to get out and then pull out your little inflatable boat before the airplane sinks?

Edited July 14, 2018 by aviatoreb

[Jerry Pressley]

no

 

[Jerry Pressley]

unless you land on an iceburg.  some are big enough to land an airliner

 

[N131MA]

Hey Mike - for the return trip next summer? :-)

Looking forward to catch up in Oshkosh!

[N131MA]

9 hours ago, teejayevans said:

So what was approximate cost with fuel, custom fees, hotels, liferaft rental, etc?

I check my CC bills:

~$4k for the trip. $2.7k for avgas, $350 for two nights (aibnb in Iqaluit, airport hotel in Reykjavik), $600 for landing and handling fees, rest for food, skydemon subscription, etc.

I already own a raft, dry diving suit, ELT transmitter, portable radio etc. No expenses for renting. 

I know you can get a 1st class commercial ticket for that money ... I currently have two residencies, one in the US and one in Germany. I am looking forward to flying in Europe this summer and will eventually fly the Mooney back to the US next year

[ArtVandelay]

Sure! Happy to support with any further information.
KBUU - CYAM (CAN port of entry) - CYGL (gas stop) - CYFB (overnight stay) - BGSF (gas stop) - BIRK (overnight stay) - EGPK (gas stop) - EDVE
 

If I’m not mistaken this route doesn’t require a HF radio and is doable without ferry tanks. Although I would only try it during summertime.

[McMooney]

hmm Monroy tanks for my E are looking more and more likely. 8)