Another Mid-Air 4 Dead

[Piloto]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/31/us-usa-crash-arizona-idUSBRE94U15T20130531

 

Time to get traffic in your cockpit? You can see the weather ahead but it is very hard to see traffic approaching you. 

 

José

[201er]

Terrible shame. I'm not going to get into what I think is statistically superior for improving survival. But what I will point out is that traffic systems are crappy. I have the pcas Monroy ATD300 and recently got a dual band Clarity-SV ADS-B receiver. I don't have out, but in the vicinity of my home airport I can nearly always catch someone else's traffic.

 

The Monroy with traffic antenna is just outright inadequate. It misses a ton of traffic and often doesn't report till after I've seen it and it has passed. The Clarity displayed on my IPAD with wingx is better (when it gets the updates obviously). But you know what, I've had plenty of traffic reports not far away, I knew exactly where they were in relation to me, and I still couldn't spot them with my eyes. I figured the ADSB traffic is the same as ATC telling you (except it continues tracking it and giving you a better picture of where to look). Sometimes this helps me find the traffic but many times, I'm perplexed how I can be unable to see something 1-2 miles away.

 

So from my experience, this traffic situation is tough and the gadgets barely help. The amount they assist you is no more than the amount they distract you. Perhaps airline level TCAS is better, but the stuff available to us isn't that good and worse yet even with the info we can't find the traffic. I hear the jets saying they don't have a visual but are following on TCAS all the time. Scary.

[carqwik]

I fly out of Deer Valley-Phoenix...we have two major flight schools - Westwind and Transpac...and according to local news, the two planes involved came from those schools, a Cessna from Westwind and the Archer from Transpac.  FWIW, Westwind trains many South Korean students and Transpac trains mostly Chinese nationals.  Both schools' training programs are for students learning to become professional pilots. There is a major training area that is northwest of Deer Valley where students practice a variety of maneuvers for their various ratings.  Given the size of these schools and the massive training effort involved, the airport as well as the practice area often gets congested.  It is not too hard to understand how two planes on training flights (just guessing that both planes were involved in training of some kind....but it is highly likely) met under an unfortunate circumstance.  AFAIK, this is the first fatal midair involving a plane from either school...but there have been other fatalities from both schools...all of them being tragic and mostly avoidable.

 

RIP. 

[Piloto]

I had several misses with the ATD-300 using the portable antenna also. But since I installed the belly directional antenna it has proven very effective. Unlike the ADS-B products in the market the ATD-300 has voice annunciation that is very effective in warning you of incoming traffic. I found the voice warning a must to have, all TCAS systems have it. None of the ADS-B will work in the Bahamas or the Caribbean where I occasionally fly to but the ATD300 does. Mine is connected to the G530 for traffic display. On the G530 I can see multiple traffic up to +12000ft, Besides pointing traffic the ATD-300 LED also display your own XPR altitude & squawk. A handy feature for trouble shooting problems with your transponder. Overall I am happy with it.

 

José

[scottfromiowa]

So FAA wants GA to improve our safety record...yet ADS-B is blocked on most traffic on my Garmin (non-certified system)...

NOPE

[jezzie]

Jose, Can the ADT300 be coupled with the GTN750?

Eldon

[jezzie]

By the way I have the ADT300 and in my area it works great

[Jerry 5TJ]

I use the L3 Skywatch in my other airplane.  Any other plane with a transponder is displayed.  When below FL180 I keep one screen on traffic at all times.   Skywatch is an active interrogator system that causes other planes' transponders to reply.  It presents an accurate range, altitude and bearing alert to all traffic within several miles of your plane. 

 

The L3 Skywatch does not depend on ground-based radar at all.  The ATD-300 requires you and any other 'target' plane to be interrogated by another interrogator.   Usually that's a ground based interrogator, but a near-by TCAS system will also serve.   If there's no interrogator to illuminate your airspace there are no alerts on the ATD-300.   

 

The only time the L3 Skywatch has seriously buffaloed me was on an IFR approach to a small airport in NY where neither the gliders nor the tow planes had any radios at all, let alone mode A/C transponders:  The screen was blank but when I popped out below the clouds the air was full of targets below 3000' AGL.  They would not have shown up on the ATD-300 or an ADS-B system, either:  Only the Mark I eyeball was operational in that scenario. 

 

Overall, though, once I saw how much traffic there is out there (that you don't pick up visually) I feel a bit naked flying without a traffic display.  I'm looking forward to widespread ADS-B Out deployment. 

[M20F-1968]

_{The answer, at least for now it seems, is TCAS.  The appropriate system for GA is about $8,000.  Has voice and visual warnings, and is an active system which interrogates other nearby transponders.  As such, it is operational where TIS is not.}

_{I installed my system at the suggestion of my IA who works as an avionics instructor for Simuflight in Dallas.   The initial price tag is a bit daunting, but the technology is worth having onboard.  Further, you can put in in perspective when you}

_{realize it is your own butt and those of your family that you are protecting.}

 

_{John Breda}

[Piloto]

Jose, Can the ADT300 be coupled with the GTN750?

Eldon

Yes it will show traffic on the GTN-750. I love the GTN-750 big font traffic display. On the G530 the traffic text is too small for me and I end up looking at the ATD-300 for altitude cross check.

 

José 

[AndyFromCB]

GTS-800 rocks and is about 13,000 installed. I am amazed at the amount of traffic I have missed over the years.

[Bob_Belville]

I have GDL 88 ADS-B I/O displaying on GTN 750. I like it a lot. It shows traffic direction of travel and if there's a potential conflict the relative altitude and whether the traffic is climbing/descending/level. I watched several targets as I flew in and out of Atlanta's PDK yesterday. There are a couple of no factor targets on the attached pic, one at 10:30 going away, one at 7:00 passing behind. If there was a conflict more info would be tagged. 

[flyboy0681]

Jose, Can the ADT300 be coupled with the GTN750?

Eldon

 

Eldon, I'll be installing the 429 compliant version of the ATD in the next week or two. I'll let you know how it works with the GTN.

[Schinderhannes]

I use the L3 Skywatch in my other airplane.  Any other plane with a transponder is displayed.  When below FL180 I keep one screen on traffic at all times.   Skywatch is an active interrogator system that causes other planes' transponders to reply.  It presents an accurate range, altitude and bearing alert to all traffic within several miles of your plane. 

 

The L3 Skywatch does not depend on ground-based radar at all.  The ATD-300 requires you and any other 'target' plane to be interrogated by another interrogator.   Usually that's a ground based interrogator, but a near-by TCAS system will also serve.   If there's no interrogator to illuminate your airspace there are no alerts on the ATD-300.   

 

The only time the L3 Skywatch has seriously buffaloed me was on an IFR approach to a small airport in NY where neither the gliders nor the tow planes had any radios at all, let alone mode A/C transponders:  The screen was blank but when I popped out below the clouds the air was full of targets below 3000' AGL.  They would not have shown up on the ATD-300 or an ADS-B system, either:  Only the Mark I eyeball was operational in that scenario. 

 

Overall, though, once I saw how much traffic there is out there (that you don't pick up visually) I feel a bit naked flying without a traffic display.  I'm looking forward to widespread ADS-B Out deployment. 

http://www.garrecht.com/index.php/en/ads-b/trx-2000

 

http://powerflarm.us/

 

The FLARM system is becoming more popular amongst glider pilots worldwide.  I don’t know how many users in the US, but if you fly frequently in close proximity of soaring centers you might want to take a look at this system.   

[Bennett]

Bob, I have the same traffic setup GDL 88 and GTN 750. I also have a GTN 650 that I set up the display to show traffic in the 6 mile mode. Works wonderfully. I did a pirep on this setup when it was first installed.

[scottfromiowa]

Oh never mind what's safety when you can drop several grand for your system...no biggie

[Marauder]

Hi Scott -- a couple of weeks back I had what I would define as a "near miss" leaving my traffic pattern. I was on a 45 degree cross wind departure when a Citabria, completely NORAD appeared head-on with me. I never saw him or heard him (he never announced). We were fortunate that he was descending into the downwind and I was climbing. I know that he had an electrical system because I tracked him down afterwards to ask why he didn't announce. Then last night, I did a VFR flight south of my airport. I got home and happened to pull up my email and saw that my buddy Biden who is also was a Delaware resident had a pop-up TFR in place -- AFTER my last weather/TFR update before I did before my flight. Fortunately it was for later in the evening, but it was within hours of my last briefing. I hate to say this, but in-flight advisories, including traffic are almost becoming a requirement in my neck of the woods.

[N201MKTurbo]

So I saw on the news that there was a fatal automobile accident in Phoenix last week. I have decided to stop driving because the risks are just to great.

[aviatoreb]

So I saw on the news that there was a fatal automobile accident in Phoenix last week. I have decided to stop driving because the risks are just to great.

 

+1

[yvesg]

So I saw on the news that there was a fatal automobile accident in Phoenix last week. I have decided to stop driving because the risks are just to great.

Why do the media report internationnally a few people dying from a airplane accident or a plane falling into an appartment building when a similar event happening by car would only trigger local coverage?

ThIs scares people away from GA aviation, they believe aircrafts are falling off the air all the time.

Yves

[201er]

Yeah, but it's so rare, that it's newsworthy. Cars do it all the time so it doesn't thrill anybody.

[flyboy0681]

Yeah, but it's so rare, that it's newsworthy. Cars do it all the time so it doesn't thrill anybody.

 

 

I concur. These events are so rare - and sometimes so horrific - that they grab headlines based upon visuals only.

[scottfromiowa]

Hi Scott -- a couple of weeks back I had what I would define as a "near miss" leaving my traffic pattern. I was on a 45 degree cross wind departure when a Citabria, completely NORAD appeared head-on with me. I never saw him or heard him (he never announced). We were fortunate that he was descending into the downwind and I was climbing. I know that he had an electrical system because I tracked him down afterwards to ask why he didn't b- last night, I did a VFR flight south of my airport. I got home and happened to pull up my email and saw that my buddy Biden who ADS also was a Delaware resident had a pop-up TFR in place -- AFTER my last weather/TFR update before I did before my flight. Fortunately it was for later in the evening, but it was within hours of my last briefing.

I hate to say this, but in-flight advisories, including traffic are almost becoming a requirement in my neck of the woods.

My point in original post is that I pay taxes and the FAA is holding the release of traffic to me hostage to entice me to spend big money now to be ADS-B in and out compliant. It is BS. Stop blocking my ability to receive traffic on my Garmin...maybe 4 lives would have been saved for $700.....

[scottfromiowa]

I do not want to spent $8 grand for a traffic system...even if I could afford it

[AndyFromCB]

So FAA wants GA to improve our safety record...yet ADS-B is blocked on most traffic on my Garmin (non-certified system)...

NOPE

 

The traffic is not blocked, exactly. You just need to invest in a GTX330ES. The ADS-B picture created by ground stations on 978mhz is aircraft specific. As in ground station receives your location from transponder and based on that location creates a specific traffic picture for your receiver. It's a "smart" transmission, meant to be received by only your aircraft. The "parasite" traffic you receive when in proximity to another ADS-B aircraft is exactly that. Not meant for you and not reliable. The air to air traffic is a different story. Not a conspiracy by FAA to get everyone to buy ADS-B Out, just a simple technical limitation.