Crossing Lake Michigan

[DrBill]

I'm setting up my first trip to OSHKOSH and the most direct route will take me out over Lake Michigan for about 80nm with max distance to shore appears about 30-40 nm.

 

When I fly to South Florida, I cut the corner at JAX following an airway about 20nm off the coast. At 9000 ft, I can glide to the shore if need be.  At 30 miles out, I don't think I could glide to land at  most of the crossing of Lake Michigan.

 

What do you guys do that routinely cross the lake ?

Should I just plan to go closer to Chicago and since I'm at 8000-12000 ft let them worry about it ?

 

Thanks

BILL

 

 

[carusoam]

I tend to pick the highest altitude possible, non O2, and stay within gliding distance. I feel better about the rest of my decisions that way. Best regards, -a-

[DrBill]

That's exactly what I was thinking... I think I'll pick a VOR  South of Chicago and fly to it, Then North... Thanks

BILL

[fantom]

Good plan and if ATC still tries to swing you out over the lake use the term "unable", without further explanation.

[jetdriven]

I would not fly over cold water beyond gliding distance from shore without a raft.  That is non-negotiable.

[mulro767]

I just did this today on a Pilots and Paws flight.  I was North though.  I went across at ISQ-SJX-CVX (Manistique, WI to Beaver Island to Charlevoix, MI) .  I was easily in gliding distance to an airport at all times at 9,000'.  And spectacular scenery too!

[Comatose]

Living in Ohio I hop across the Great Lakes. Its not a question of will you/won't you. Its a question of being smart about it. 80nm is way too long to be over Lake Michigan. Near its middle the narrowest crossing is a little over 40nm. If I'm going over, its there. Being over the water for 80 miles and being 40 miles from land is just bad planning. GPS direct is not the way here. At 12, 500 I can glide the 20 miles of the shortest crossing, so I go. Life jackets, of course, just in case. Even if i don't make the last mile of glide,somehow, the last mile is warmer. Also, clearly, this is a day/summer/good weather only proposition. But then again, I feel I have a good plane for it. M20C, 600 hours on the engine, babied for maintenance, engine monitor, fuel flow and all the speed mods for a few percent less drag, new mags, etc. Would I try it in a rented cherokee on a cold cloudy night? Hell no.

[Alan Fox]

I cross east to west at 11K and start my descent about 20 miles out , In reality you are only out of glide for about 35 to 40 miles depending on winds , and in the C that is 15 minutes , The plane does not know it is over water......That being said , I only am there around August , and and always keep PFDs in the plane...... I would not do it in cold weather......You could skirt the southern shore 18 miles off shore , and only add 30 or so minutes to your trip..... 

[N201MKTurbo]

There are plenty of boats out there, if you go down ditch next to one.

 

Out here in the west there are many places where emergency landings would be nearly impossible because of terrain, yet nobody seems to mind flying over it.

 

If you don't trust your airplane to make it 80 miles you shouldn't be flying it.

[Alan Fox]

There are plenty of boats out there, if you go down ditch next to one.

 

Out here in the west there are many places where emergency landings would be nearly impossible because of terrain, yet nobody seems to mind flying over it.

 

If you don't trust your airplane to make it 80 miles you shouldn't be flying it.

Thats a pretty cavalier attutude to have , given somebody is asking for advice on how to be a safer pilot.....

[N201MKTurbo]

OK, I was a little snarky, but it always amazes me what people worry about. The chances of having an engine failure during the 30 minutes or so you are crossing the lake is about the same as winning the power ball. It reminds me of the discussion on AvWeb about traffic alert systems selling like hot cakes while you can hardly give away AOA sensors, yet for every midair there are 100 stall spin accidents. That being said, I have flown across Lake Michigan both IFR and VFR. IFR doesn’t bother me, because white nothing is white nothing no matter where you are, but when you can see the water and not the shore, it causes a bit of pucker. It is all psychological of course the plane doesn’t know the difference. If someone is worried about an engine failure the best thing to do is be sure there is enough fuel in the tank, that will take care of 95% of the engine failures. If someone doesn’t feel comfortable flying across the lake then go around. The risk of flying over the lake is probably less than flying at night anywhere west of the continental divide, yet people do it all the time. If it was dangerous to fly over the lake it would be illegal, but the FAA (Chicago approach) seems hell-bent on sending you 30 miles out to sea every time you go there.

[OR75]

take away fuel starvation, CFITs, and VFR into IMC.

also take away take off and landing phases where most incidents occur.

.... when the engine is at flight level and purring, the odds of anything happening are statistically very very slim.

[scottfromiowa]

There are plenty of boats out there, if you go down ditch next to one.   Out here in the west there are many places where emergency landings would be nearly impossible because of terrain, yet nobody seems to mind flying over it.   If you don't trust your airplane to make it 80 miles you shouldn't be flying it.

Could NOT disagree more with this. If you EVER went into One of the Great Lakes to swim in the summer you know you don't want to ditch there.....

[OR75]

i had rather ditch in thr lake than in the Chicago urban jungle.

[DrBill]

Thanks to all for the advice. It just confirms what I was expecting those of you that do this regularly.  Go high and be within glide distance.  Just like I do on my Florida trip.

 

Any of you go over/through the Chicago airspace on an IFR plan ?  Here in Charlotte, I ve only transitioned from near in so they get me to 5000+ and then I'm cleared directly over the airport.  I think planes passing thru are OK over 7-8K.  The ceiling of the Class B is 10K. Same for KORD so perhaps if I filed at 12K, II'll get a good route through vs around their airspace.

 

Thanks again for the responses...

BILL

[Cruiser]

To answer this and similar type questions (single pilot IFR, IFR after dark, flying over mountains, VMC into IMC etc) there are really too parts.

 

First, what are the risks involved in the activity?

As many say above the chances of an engine failure exactly at the time when you are beyond gliding distance is extremely remote.

 

Second. IF a failure occurs what are the chances of successful outcomes? 

Ditching in Lake Michigan anytime of year can result in hypothermia and death very quickly if help does not arrive.

 

So view the responses to these kinds of questions by which of the two conditions is being addressed. What are the chances and how severe is the consequence?

[aviatoreb]

I cross east to west at 11K and start my descent about 20 miles out , In reality you are only out of glide for about 35 to 40 miles depending on winds , and in the C that is 15 minutes , The plane does not know it is over water......That being said , I only am there around August , and and always keep PFDs in the plane...... I would not do it in cold weather......You could skirt the southern shore 18 miles off shore , and only add 30 or so minutes to your trip..... 

 

Why not go higher to cross the lake?  You can go higher than 11k even in a C.

 

I have crossed Lake Huron at 19,000 just north of the thumb of the mitten, a bit longer crossing than Lake Michigan.  At no time was I out of glide range of land and in spades.  Remember the middle isn't necessarily the glide range middle depending on winds aloft.

[aaronk25]

I fly there alot if they make you do something you don't want to cancel your ifr go vfr, cause your not going to be flying ifr the winter anyway right?

Just stay out of bravo and pick up ifr later if you want.

Most likley their not going to be accommodating unless the winds are in the right direction for arrival and departures.

[DaV8or]

If you don't trust your airplane to make it 80 miles you shouldn't be flying it.

 

Have you had engine trouble in flight yet? I have. It happens a fair amount. Our engines are not as rock solid as some would have you believe. Go fly and enjoy, but IMO, always keep an eye on the landing options even if it takes you off the direct route. Be careful out there.

 

To the OP, I personally would fly the shoreline and enjoy life.

[FloridaMan]

I won't even fly across lake Okeechobee in Florida or go more than about 20 miles off-shore. The only risk I'll take is Key West. There's a small window when you're outside of gliding distance on that trip, but the unfortunate pilots who have gone down in that trip with some preparations usually make it. 

[jetdriven]

Antares, at 7000 feet you can glide from the center of Okechobee to either shore, I have done it

[FloridaMan]

Antares, at 7000 feet you can glide from the center of Okechobee to either shore, I have done it

 

Is there a story to go along with this? 

[gregwatts]

OK, I was a little snarky, but it always amazes me what people worry about. The chances of having an engine failure during the 30 minutes or so you are crossing the lake is about the same as winning the power ball. It reminds me of the discussion on AvWeb about traffic alert systems selling like hot cakes while you can hardly give away AOA sensors, yet for every midair there are 100 stall spin accidents. That being said, I have flown across Lake Michigan both IFR and VFR. IFR doesn’t bother me, because white nothing is white nothing no matter where you are, but when you can see the water and not the shore, it causes a bit of pucker. It is all psychological of course the plane doesn’t know the difference. If someone is worried about an engine failure the best thing to do is be sure there is enough fuel in the tank, that will take care of 95% of the engine failures. If someone doesn’t feel comfortable flying across the lake then go around. The risk of flying over the lake is probably less than flying at night anywhere west of the continental divide, yet people do it all the time. If it was dangerous to fly over the lake it would be illegal, but the FAA (Chicago approach) seems hell-bent on sending you 30 miles out to sea every time you go there.

 

I sort of agree with this response.......What is the difference flying day or night over a solid overcast....wont matter whether you are over land or water. If you dont trust your airplane, don't make the trip! No doubt.......shit happens! But the odds are in your favor. Having flown to the Bahamas hundreds of times.....having islands in your view is a false sense of security......you can't always land on the terrain below you.

 

 

My opinion only!

[jlunseth]

I crossed Lake Michigan once, west to east.  We had a good tailwind, about 75 kts at FL190 as I recall, and would have been able to glide to the eastern shore the minute we broke the western shore, with a little room to spare.  At the point we crossed, again my recollection, the Lake is only about 45 n.m.  I would not have crossed had we not had favorable glide conditions.  We went south of the lake on the trip back east to west, with the unfavorable prevailing winds and needing to stay low (8,000).  I have passed around Chicago IFR several times.  The route assigned by ATC changes each time, but is usally something like MAPPS-EON-KELSI .  EON and/or KELSI have been in the route every time.  They generally will not give you a routing over JOT, which would be a little shorter. 

 

When we did the crossing we had an incident that cured me of any desire to overfly the Lake under conditions where a glide to shore would not be possible.  A sliver of plastic less than a sixteenth of an inch thick and about 3/8's inches long had declined to pass through the quick drain at the last oil change.  Because of the sliver, the quick drain would not fully seal.  We had a drop on the nose gear before departure and had a mechanic look at the engine.  He told us it was a minor leak in the quick drain and they sometimes do that.  As a result of that "minor leak" we blew 5 quarts out during the trip and had a loss of oil pressure just after clearing the Lake and while over Canada.  I declared an emergency, did a rapid dive to an airport (London) about 20 miles away, including a descent through about 7,000 feet of hard IMC, having throttled the engine back to idle hoping to save it in the event I misestimated the runway and needed a little power.  The landing went smoothly, locating the runway was helped by the lights of the crash trucks ATC had rolled out.  The belly of the plane was coated with oil.  Fortunately there was just enough left that the engine checked out OK, and after a day in the shop the next day we were able to proceed on our trip.

 

We were very lucky the event did not lead to a completely failed engine and did not happen over the Lake.  Very shortly after we crossed someone else tried it and was not as lucky.

 

One of the reasons for these forums is to learn from each other's mistakes.  You can either learn from mine, or you can believe it would never happen to you, your choice as PIC.

[aviatoreb]

I crossed Lake Michigan once, west to east.  We had a good tailwind, about 75 kts at FL190 as I recall, and would have been able to glide to the eastern shore the minute we broke the western shore, with a little room to spare.  At the point we crossed, again my recollection, the Lake is only about 45 n.m.  I would not have crossed had we not had favorable glide conditions.  We went south of the lake on the trip back east to west, with the unfavorable prevailing winds and needing to stay low (8,000).  I have passed around Chicago IFR several times.  The route assigned by ATC changes each time, but is usally something like MAPPS-EON-KELSI .  EON and/or KELSI have been in the route every time.  They generally will not give you a routing over JOT, which would be a little shorter. 

 

When we did the crossing we had an incident that cured me of any desire to overfly the Lake under conditions where a glide to shore would not be possible.  A sliver of plastic less than a sixteenth of an inch thick and about 3/8's inches long had declined to pass through the quick drain at the last oil change.  Because of the sliver, the quick drain would not fully seal.  We had a drop on the nose gear before departure and had a mechanic look at the engine.  He told us it was a minor leak in the quick drain and they sometimes do that.  As a result of that "minor leak" we blew 5 quarts out during the trip and had a loss of oil pressure just after clearing the Lake and while over Canada.  I declared an emergency, did a rapid dive to an airport (London) about 20 miles away, including a descent through about 7,000 feet of hard IMC, having throttled the engine back to idle hoping to save it in the event I misestimated the runway and needed a little power.  The landing went smoothly, locating the runway was helped by the lights of the crash trucks ATC had rolled out.  The belly of the plane was coated with oil.  Fortunately there was just enough left that the engine checked out OK, and after a day in the shop the next day we were able to proceed on our trip.

 

We were very lucky the event did not lead to a completely failed engine and did not happen over the Lake.  Very shortly after we crossed someone else tried it and was not as lucky.

 

One of the reasons for these forums is to learn from each other's mistakes.  You can either learn from mine, or you can believe it would never happen to you, your choice as PIC.

 

Thanks from your story.  Yes, I agree that for me the point of reading this forum is to benefit from others experiences.  COPA (Cirrus pilots forum) keeps a statistic that COPA readers have 4 times better statistics for NTSB recorded incidents than the complete population of Cirrus fliers.

 

What happened to your engine happened to the guy in the hangar adjacent to mine - a Cessna P210.  But he was in VMC.  He similarly pulled the engine to very low power setting and made an emergency dive decent to the nearest airport.   He was over land and the nearest airport was pretty close.  He too saved his engine but more importantly he saved his bacon.

 

On the note of lake crossings.  If any of you read about a pilot in a C150 who tried to cross Lake Huron two summers ago, east to west at very low altitude, like 2500 or so, he had an engine failure and ditched - in the summer - and actually survived 17 hours in the water - barely.  He is from an airport about 50mi from me.