Mooney Down (03/25/24) - Near St. Augustine-Northeast Florida Regional Airport, FL (UST)

[LANCECASPER]

2 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

Selling the LLC is not too likely. My information is that the airplane was sold just last week, so I wouldn't not expect the FAA database to show the new ownership.

Perhaps it was one of the Hofer's neighbors that bought it?    It flew a lot last week at the home base where the Hofer's live, 14A. Or maybe that was a few minutes of transition training before moving it to it's new home base in FL?
On Sunday it flew from 14A to St. Augustine. 
 

 

Not that it makes the situation any better, but it does make a lot more sense that a new-in-type pilot would have been more distracted by what happened and perhaps more likely for an overshoot on base to final. Either way very sad and condolences to the families of the pilot and passenger.

[midlifeflyer]

9 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

Perhaps it was one of the Hofer's neighbors that bought it?    It flew a lot last week at the home base where the Hofer's live, 14A. Or maybe that was transition training before moving it to it's new home base in FL?
On Sunday it flew from 14A to St. Augustine. 
 

That I don't know. 

I know the Hofers but when I saw the registration information, my inquiries were limited to finding out whether either of them were in the airplane. Beyond that I won't speculate.

[mike_elliott]

If anyone has contact info of the pilots surviving spouse, please let me know

 

[carusoam]

YT already has radio and gps data posted…

Prayers,

-a-

 

 

[201er]

13 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Baggage door still intact and was open and in the up position at the crash site. Possible that it went through the crash sequence in that position, but seems more likely that it was opened by first responders.

[Ryan ORL]

On 3/25/2024 at 9:14 PM, 201er said:

Altimeter 30.13. So pressure altitude is about 200ft lower. When ADSB shows 600, should be 800MSL. Still kinda low.

Not that this possibly-a-transient guy would know this, but until very recently (gone now but as recently as a couple years ago?) the TPA at SGJ was published as 800.  It was definitely 800 when I did my PPL there in 2007 and it was the outlier that I used to point my students to.  Guess the FAA finally changed it.

Anyway, if he was a local, this wouldn’t necessarily be uncommon.

[midlifeflyer]

12 hours ago, carusoam said:

YT already has radio and gps data posted…

Prayers,

-a-

 

 

It just doesn’t make sense as a simple passenger door opening. The pilot did not sound in the least bit distracted by it. 

[ArtVandelay]

If the door is open, I wonder if the increased noise would drown out the stall warning?
Even if the pilot was calm, doesn’t mean the passenger was. Or the passenger was trying to “help” and bump the yoke putting the plane into a steep turn.

[Ragsf15e]

A low(ish) pattern, overshooting final, heavyweight, unexpected return, new owner, distraction from wind/noise… there are lots of things stacked against them.  None of them should be fatal by themselves or even together, but they do increase the risk.

[midlifeflyer]

18 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

A low(ish) pattern, overshooting final, heavyweight, unexpected return, new owner, distraction from wind/noise… there are lots of things stacked against them.  None of them should be fatal by themselves or even together, but they do increase the risk.

It will be interesting to see how many of our assumptions and speculations pan out. For example, yes, there is a new owner but we don't know (a) how much prior Mooney experience they have or (b) whether the new owner was accompanied by an experienced Mooney CFI since, if new to Mooneys there would be a substantial insurance checkout and solo period.

[Ibra]

From data/profile and radio doubt it was down because door open? 
 

On pax/bag doors open, the aircraft is well certified to fly with it’s doors open while in white arc (say halfway between VS0 and VFE), I don’t think it’s worth closing in flight 1/ passenger door will get ripped off or twisted and 2/ one can’t close bags doors and 3/ lot of distraction 

I doubt errors on ASI/ALT are that large (200ft & 10kts) in white arc, there is not much asymmetry or ram pressure? however, one will have to fly according to pitch & power (stall warner will fade away with all cockpit noise) 

For bag door, it can be closed from inside anyway, there is an SB/AD on Mooneys and it may get ripped off and sent to the elevator at 150kias cruise (see an accident report), at takeoff & landing speeds it should stay around (like it did in hundreds of occurrences)

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5f7ed012e90e07740f167109/Mooney_M20K_G-OSUS_11-20.pdf

For passenger door, it can be closed from inside with the right steps (speed at mid of white arc, sideslip and open storm window), there is a risk of loosing all of it if it jerks 

I think doors should be closed in parking space, ideally before flight or after 

I had passenger door open twice,

- On final in bumpy conditions in a friend aircraft: it made an interesting go-around, however, landed with door open and zero issues 

- On takeoff in my aircraft: I heard straps on airframe as I rolled then door opened exactly as I rotate, I climbed to cruise altitude and I close, I had one ATC who could not stop talking as he was supposed to hand me cross-border to London controller (I had no clue what he was saying and he could not just get it: should have declared mayday or set 7600), 

It seems that it the pax door is likely to go open as configuration changes or at takeoff rotation due to airflow, this is likely to happen at critical moments, however, it’s non-event to fly with both open 

I used to carry huge lithium battery for my bike in a fire proof bag, however, I was never comfortable as there was no guarantee that toxic smokes can be avoided: my plan was throw it out of the pax door if that happens and fly the aircraft…

 

 

[Echo]

If an audible alert system installed ($700ish and provides a verbal "Check Gear" tied to gear horn/mp & "Stall, Stall" tied to stall horn with approaching stall) you hear the alerts through your headset.  In the event of a stall horn alert with door open wind noise the alert in the headset allows you to react and perhaps intervene and prevent an expensive or perhaps catastrophic event.  

[Fly Boomer]

32 minutes ago, Echo said:

If an audible alert system installed ($700ish and provides a verbal "Check Gear" tied to gear horn/mp & "Stall, Stall" tied to stall horn with approaching stall) you hear the alerts through your headset.  In the event of a stall horn alert with door open wind noise the alert in the headset allows you to react and perhaps intervene and prevent an expensive or perhaps catastrophic event.  

I don't have one yet but, in general, I'm in favor of the verbal alerts in addition to the beepers and buzzers.  For me at least, the verbal alert seems to cut through better.

[SpamPilot]

Having previously educated myself on the supposed non-event of the cabin door opening in flight, both as the POH describes and as Mooney lore across the Web discusses, I was quite surprised at my reaction both times it happened to me in my M20K.  I found it difficult to control the panic reflex and avoid distraction, despite forcing myself to continually repeat "Aviation, Navigate, Communicate!" and "Use your checklists!" and "Keep your speed up!" and "The aircraft is still flying, relax!".  Your reaction may vary; you are a better man and a far better pilot than I if you have ice water for blood and remain calm, cool, and unperturbed throughout the event.  The first time was at cruise altitude, with a passenger.  We couldn't get the door closed, so I instructed the passenger to just hold it as closed as possible and we landed at the nearest airport.  Having a passenger there to hold the door closed did help me to focus, but honestly it was much harder than I expected.  The second time was solo, a few minutes after takeoff, at about 2000 AGL.  Both times the cockpit got very loud, which I found terrifying even though intellectually I knew better.  At first I thought the turbo had fallen off and I was about to become a fireball - it's not as if the door just obviously swings wide open.  I didn't try too hard to close the door - that involves briefly giving up on flying the aircraft as well as giving up on seeing and avoiding, so I elected not to prioritize that at 2000 AGL.  I returned to the airport "normally", but again I have to emphasize that it was a major effort to overcome the adrenaline and fear in order to make a "normal" approach and landing.  Yes, given the noise in the cockpit, talking to Tower was a challenge, not impossible but it's one more layer of difficulty and uncertainty that was working to panic and distract me.  The aircraft was also fairly new to me - I got the door sorted out later - but even with a thousand hours in a previous Mooney, it was another layer of uncertainty I had to force myself to mentally suppress.  What got me through to safe landings both times was recognizing that fear could overcome me if I didn't follow my training, minute-by-minute acknowledgement that the airplane was still flying just fine, rigorously using my checklists, and repeating my airspeed mantra throughout the approach.

Another time I found the baggage door open at runup.  Flying with a buddy that day (who also flies a Mooney) was just enough of a distraction that neither of us noticed that the baggage door was still open until we had already taxied to the runup area, even though we weren't complacent and were following checklists all along and not chit-chatting about random stuff.  On that day it wasn't enough that I'm the only person allowed to close the baggage door.  I missed the opportunity to instruct the other person (who didn't even need to be a pilot) how to check to make sure I closed and latched the baggage door.  Now knowing how much risk an open baggage door presents in flight (not to airworthiness of the aircraft, but to flightworthiness of my brain), I have added checking that the baggage door is closed to my checklist at three separate points.  I do wish there were a way to check that the baggage door latch is latched from the pilot's seat.  This new accident has me thinking how I might accomplish that.  Maybe just a small plastic mirror mounted to the inside of the cabin door would do the trick, allowing me to open the door (while on the ground) and angle it just enough to visually confirm the state of the baggage door and latch.

 

[EricJ]

It's really loud inside the cabin with the hatch open, even with an ANR headset, so if he was used to using ambient wind noise as part of his stick-and-rudder airspeed assessment, that may have been out of whack, too, and disturbed his feel for the speed of the aircraft.   Hard to say, but whatever happened it's tragic.   

[201er]

3 minutes ago, EricJ said:

It's really loud inside the cabin with the hatch open, even with an ANR headset, so if he was used to using ambient wind noise as part of his stick-and-rudder airspeed assessment, that may have been out of whack, too, and disturbed his feel for the speed of the aircraft.   Hard to say, but whatever happened it's tragic.   

Also a tailwind on base. Between the louder wind noise and higher ground speed, it’s easy to misinterpret higher than actual airspeed. Much better to read AOA from an AOA indicator rather than to infer it from a multitude of usually-but-not-always coincident sources (pitch attitude, wind noise, ground speed, airspeed indicator).

30 minutes ago, SpamPilot said:

I found it difficult to control the panic reflex and avoid distraction, despite forcing myself to continually repeat "Aviation, Navigate, Communicate!" and "Use your checklists!" and "Keep your speed up!" and "The aircraft is still flying, relax!". 

Add a little heavy on the rudder after the base overshoot and jittery nerves and it’s not a good outcome 

[LANCECASPER]

6 hours ago, Echo said:

If an audible alert system installed ($700ish and provides a verbal "Check Gear" tied to gear horn/mp & "Stall, Stall" tied to stall horn with approaching stall) you hear the alerts through your headset.  In the event of a stall horn alert with door open wind noise the alert in the headset allows you to react and perhaps intervene and prevent an expensive or perhaps catastrophic event.  

On final if he got too slow that would be helpful.

On the dreaded "too low-too slow-overflown" tight base to final stall-spin, it happens so fast by the time he would have heard the warning he would be in the spin.

I don't have one on my present airplane, but an angle of attack indicator with audio may have been helpful.

[ArtVandelay]

Next time you’re at your plane, try thumbing the hatch (closed but unlocked) with your fist. I see the handle start to open up (1/4” or so) but then stop. Kinda makes me wonder if it could open up in turbulence, so I lock it close when on long flights.

[hais]

On 3/28/2024 at 8:24 AM, Echo said:

If an audible alert system installed ($700ish and provides a verbal "Check Gear" tied to gear horn/mp & "Stall, Stall" tied to stall horn with approaching stall) you hear the alerts through your headset.  In the event of a stall horn alert with door open wind noise the alert in the headset allows you to react and perhaps intervene and prevent an expensive or perhaps catastrophic event.  

I can attest that, with ANR headset, you won't hear a thing. With a passive headset, you can hear just fine. 

[Seth]

I had a baggage door open in 2010 on the takeoff roll of my first Mooney, my M20F, prior to rotation speee. It became a whirlwind inside and got loud. I aborted the takeoff before rotation, taxied off the active, shut down, inspected, secured, and locked the baggage door, and then restarted and departed.

The baggage door lifted all the way up during just the take off roll and locked itself into the support that keeps it open. 
 
My guess is the baggage door was fully up and open on the accident 252 due to the pattern speed winds in flight.

Accident pics do not show any departure of the door from the aircraft or deformity of the baggage door like in the higher cruise speed incidents where the baggage door causes damage to the tail or because a significant source of drag requiring immediate landing. 

Very sad accident.

I didn’t know they built 231 copies of the 252. I wonder if that was done on purpose somehow. 

Again, very sad. Thanks to the Mooney Summit Bill Gililand Foundation for hopefully reaching out to the family and providing great support to the Mooney Community.

 

-Seth

 

[donkaye]

On 3/25/2024 at 6:39 PM, donkaye said:

Totally subjective at this point, but if the base leg did have a 10 knot tailwind, then with some anxiousness to get on the ground, an overshoot of final (and from the track that looks to be the case) could have caused the classic cross controlled base to final stall?  Just hypothesizing with no basis in fact...  Obviously, we need the final accident report to shed more light on the situation.  The pilot seemed pretty calm initially about a simple return for landing and closing the door.

My mentor instructor, Bob Goldin, once said that the difference between the normal private pilot and a pilot with an ATP was the ATP pilot flew for the passenger--even if you are the passenger.  That means fly with "grace" and "smoothness".  Passengers for the most part don't like steep turns.  They feel more comfortable if flying is like riding in a car.  That means shallow turns.  So, I teach flying the pattern with shallow turns.  I'd rather a student end up lined up early and ease their way to the center line than to overshoot final.  This is especially true with parallel runways.  Shallow early turns => Less likely a Cross Controlled Stall in my opinion.

Of course you all know that you can get your ATP in your airplane.  That's how I got my original ATP, in my airplane.

[IFLYIFR]

Best practice regarding LOCKING the baggage door? I was taught by my instructor at a Mooney PPP to close, latch, and LOCK the baggage door, not just close and LATCH it. I later saw Martha King latch but not lock the baggage door on her commercial maneuvers video filmed in a Mooney. The last two pilots I have flown with in their Mooneys latched but did not lock their baggage doors. Which is best practice, LATCH or latch and LOCK?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[PeteMc]

13 minutes ago, IFLYIFR said:

The last two pilots I have flown with in their Mooneys latched but did not lock their baggage doors. Which is best practice, LATCH or latch and LOCK?

It's a pretty big debate and when I first got my Mooney I was taught to lock it.  But as time went on and I read more and when to seminars, including PPPs, it started to emerge that the people that had a Baggage Door open in flight either admitted they probably didn't latch it properly or they were not sure if they latched it properly.   And the number of Baggage Doors opening in flight seems to be VERY small.  So there does not seem to be a reason to lock it. 

On the other side for NOT locking it is the "what if" you go down and are knocked out and the main door is blocked or jammed.  If it happens to be a real 1st Responder, they probably have something to pry open the door or go through a window.   But more times than not, the first person there is probably some living or driving by.  Their only option might be the Baggage Door, but NOT if it's locked.

NOTE:  There are times when the Baggage Door latching mechanism actually breaks and both pins do not extend into the door frame.  But that is easily discovered by the appropriate TUG on the Baggage Door.  And locking won't really help if the pins did not fully extend.  I learned this the hard way back when I was locking the door. (But no serious damage.  Kept the speed down as I came around the pattern.  Those hinges are pretty strong.)

 

Edited March 31 by PeteMc

[donkaye]

3 hours ago, PeteMc said:

It's a pretty big debate and when I first got my Mooney I was taught to lock it.  But as time went on and I read more and when to seminars, including PPPs, it started to emerge that the people that had a Baggage Door open in flight either admitted they probably didn't latch it properly or they were not sure if they latched it properly.   And the number of Baggage Doors opening in flight seems to be VERY small.  So there does not seem to be a reason to lock it. 

On the other side for NOT locking it is the "what if" you go down and are knocked out and the main door is blocked or jammed.  If it happens to be a real 1st Responder, they probably have something to pry open the door or go through a window.   But more times than not, the first person there is probably some living or driving by.  Their only option might be the Baggage Door, but NOT if it's locked.

I let everyone make their own decision, but, I personally, deliberately do not lock mine for the reason stated above.  Some people insist on locking it and I'm fine with that, just not for me.  A properly latched baggage door being held down with the two latching pins is not going to come open.

[Bunti]

I never have locked the baggage door before a flight. In my Mooney M20F, it cannot be opened from the inside. But in case of an emergency, it can be opened easily from the outside by anybody on the ground with no tools.