How far is my cart in front of my horse?

[Dtips]

My goal has always been to get my license and own a plane. When I was 17 i embarked on my mission to become a pilot. As the story so often goes, i ran out of money just before I finished(I'd passed the written, had my solo x-countries done and was mostly just the check ride away).  I got laid off and had to discontinue my dreams.  35 years later, I'm ready to finish. I'd like to finish. My medical is in deferment but I'm hoping the powers that be will see that I've worked hard to overcome the mistakes. i have a cfi at the ready and have been brushing up on ground schools to make sure I'm solid when i get back in the skies.

I think the kind of flying i want to eventually do (x-country travel, explore new areas of the country when I retire soon, maybe take my family along when I'm proficient enough to have them join me) and my current financial situation seems to lead me to a legacy mooney. I always thought they were so damn cool.  I've sat on the sideline for probably too long and watched prices skyrocket.  I know there's a lot to aircraft ownership, I'm not well off but I've saved a bit and think I could handle 50-85k, hangar fees, insurance (prob a load here in a retract for a zero-time guy but hoping to get some hours in and maybe get IFR to keep that from beating me up) and annuals as long as they aren't too bad. I've been thru trade-a-plane, controller, barnstormer, social media and I think I may be able to make some of the cheaper ones work with my budget but am terrified of getting in over my head..."there's nothing more expensive than a cheap plane", I've heard.  I'm also afraid if prices continue to climb it will easily price me out of my dreams.  So, long story even longer, I've been looking into getting something on the cheaper side (VFR capable low time m20c with aestetic issues or even something run out for 40kish that i could get and know an overhaul is coming) and finish my training in it and hopefully it's my trainer, time builder and forever plane.

Am I crackers? is my cart too far in front of my horse or is this at all doable?

thanks in advance for any constructive criticism.

[MikeOH]

1) Medical in limbo

2) No PPC, yet

3) Somewhat limited funds

4) No retract time or recent experience

Sorry to be a downer but, yeah, I think you are a bit ahead of yourself.  At the VERY least you need to get a valid medical; that can be an arduous, frustrating, and LONG process depending on the condition.  Get that behind you before thinking about buying ANYTHING.  I have a hangar neighbor that bought a Cherokee 140 and has been waiting over a YEAR to get his medical (had used an SSRI earlier in his life).

[hubcap]

My advice to everyone who aspires to getting their PPL is to get your medical before you spend a penny on anything else to do with aviation.

[Utah20Gflyer]

I’d get the the medical and PPL first and then rent for a year or two.  Get your instrument rating during that time and if it turns out you are flying 50-100 hours minimum a year then start looking at buying a plane.   After you get your first medical you can move over to basic med which will give you a higher likelihood of continuing flying.   

[Fly Boomer]

27 minutes ago, Dtips said:

Am I crackers? is my cart too far in front of my horse or is this at all doable?

As others have said, the medical is far from assured.  If you do get a third class, you can then switch to Basic Med for less hassle.  Assuming you get that and the other things done, I think the market may be softening slightly.  Airplane prices (or anything else for that matter) will probably never go back to where they were, but may be coming down a little.

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Dtips!

1) You have come to the right place… to learn about what you are trying to accomplish…

2) If you have a ton of dough… train in your Mooney.

3) Short on dough…?  Training in your Mooney, isn’t usually the best route… until you are going after your instrument rating… IR.

4) Finding the right Mooney for you… will probably fit somewhere between M20A and M20V….
depending on how selective you are… may take a year to find and acquire the right one nicely dressed…, get started!

5) If you aren’t a mechanic… avoid the lower cost levels of any model…. The work involved to bring a worn out plane up to nice and safe… is prohibitively expensive…

6) planes have four costs… that can be added up. Airframe, engine, instrument panel, paint and interior…

7) if you want to be scared… look up the price to overhaul things to brand new condition… in the end, you end up with a brand new plane… with today’s cost, and 1970s vintage…

8) If you want to feel wealthy… look up what it costs to overhaul a brand P’s engine…  IO720…   

9) For the most part… searching for a first Mooney… there is a bit of a sweet spot in the alphabet…

10) Expect all Mooneys to have exactly four seats… some have a bit more leg room than the others…

11) Expect 98% of all Mooneys to have retractable gear and controllable pitch prop.  Essential bits of a fast efficient plane…

12) Entry level Mooneys come with two Lycoming engine choices… O360, and IO360…

13) O360s are carbureted and 180hp…  IO360s use fuel injection and other details to get to 200hp… the extra 10% hp is actually meaningful for many.

14) The sweet spot… M20C to M20J.  Easy, natural, step-up from the trainer…  your insurance provider will define transition training for you… often 10 - 20 hours before solo flight and then taking passengers…

15) The C, has the O360, it is a short body Mooney… makes a great plane for a family of four… until the kids grow to full size.

16) The E, like the M20C, has the IO360… preferred by the retired crowd… perfect plane for two people, with room to take four, on short hops…

17) The F, like the M20E, with more room in the back… preferred by Money makers that sit in the back…

18) The G, an oddity, it is the mid body Mooney like the F, but sports the M20C’s carbureted engine… aka the turtle of the Mooney crowd… 

19) Next step up…. The Modern Mooneys… starting with the M20J… Mooney got out the aerodynamics book, and fiberglass… and modernized the M20F… and called it the M20J.

20) So start looking for what plane fits your desires and needs… and start building your list of needs… Controller seems to be a nice place to find Mooneys….

 

use caution… if looking at mid level M20Cs, and you see an M20F at the same price…  there is probably a reason for that pricing oddity… dig deeper to figure out why it is priced so low… something may be damaged or worn out…

Buying a plane… There is something called a pre-purchase inspection… PPI… it is imperfectly, the best protection for your wallet…

There are no bad Mooney models… but, old machines have a tendency to need proper care over time… all planes need proper care, not just Mooneys…

My first Mooney… M20C.

I found MS while looking for my next Mooney… M20J / Missile… 

My second Mooney turned out to be an M20R… aka Standing Ovation…

I got my IR… between ownership of the two planes… in 2008. It’s been a while.  

 

Nothing cooler than waking up in the morning… checking the weather… and have the grandkids visit their grandparents hundreds of miles away…and be back later in the day… or three days later… depending on how you feel.
 

Life is short… Fly Fast!

Go Mooney!

You can do it!

PP thoughts only, not a plane sales guy…

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

The medical is key…

study the questions…

know the answers…

Don’t guess…

There are proper ways to navigate through the mine field…

Even for those with challenges of heart issues, various medicines, or missing an eyeball…

Somebody around here will be familiar with that challenge…

AOPA is also a nice resource for this…

Good luck!

Best regards,

-a-

[glbtrottr]

I don’t know that I feel as negative as some of the others here.

I’ve bought and sold a ton of airplanes. It is no easy skill. I say that as someone who owns a shop that does paint, upholstery and avionics aside from maintenance. I’ve bought a flying mooney even in the last year for as little as 7k, though 55-85is more realistic for what you have in mind.

Buy your own plane - don’t rent. You’ve already got some nice time logged.

Don’t fall into the trap”get great avionics” trap. A reliable airplane with a mediocre panel, a six pack and old radios flies just as fast and as reliably as one with a brand new Garmin and Dynon / avidyne stack.

What’s the likelihood your deferment will make it thru? Some are and some aren’t

[carusoam]

28 minutes ago, glbtrottr said:

I don’t know that I feel as negative as some of the others here.
 

This is the tough part about technical writing…

The above posts are actually quite positive… relaying some challenges that may be found along the way… and methods to avoid those challenges…

 

All are an attempt to help out the OP…  oddly, it may not seem that way.   

Without knowing very much about the OP…

Like where in the Mooney World is he?

Wanna see a Mooney up close?

Is he anywhere near TX?   AAA is a great place to see and feel Mooneys up close.

I updated my diatribe above a couple of times… trying to soften the negativity, without being full blown Mooniac crazy…  

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Dtips]

11 hours ago, glbtrottr said:

I don’t know that I feel as negative as some of the others here.

I’ve bought and sold a ton of airplanes. It is no easy skill. I say that as someone who owns a shop that does paint, upholstery and avionics aside from maintenance. I’ve bought a flying mooney even in the last year for as little as 7k, though 55-85is more realistic for what you have in mind.

Buy your own plane - don’t rent. You’ve already got some nice time logged.

Don’t fall into the trap”get great avionics” trap. A reliable airplane with a mediocre panel, a six pack and old radios flies just as fast and as reliably as one with a brand new Garmin and Dynon / avidyne stack.

What’s the likelihood your deferment will make it thru? Some are and some aren’t

none of it is medical, its all past history of goofball that figured it out later in life. The AOPA said it shouldn't be a big issue, but it'll take time and going back and forth(a few times) with the FAA which is obviously a big waiting game.

[Dtips]

13 hours ago, MikeOH said:

1) Medical in limbo

2) No PPC, yet

3) Somewhat limited funds

4) No retract time or recent experience

Sorry to be a downer but, yeah, I think you are a bit ahead of yourself.  At the VERY least you need to get a valid medical; that can be an arduous, frustrating, and LONG process depending on the condition.  Get that behind you before thinking about buying ANYTHING.  I have a hangar neighbor that bought a Cherokee 140 and has been waiting over a YEAR to get his medical (had used an SSRI earlier in his life).

not what I wanna hear but maybe what I need to.

I appreciate the candor.

[Dtips]

13 hours ago, hubcap said:

My advice to everyone who aspires to getting their PPL is to get your medical before you spend a penny on anything else to do with aviation.

Yeah....

It makes perfect sense.

[Dtips]

13 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

As others have said, the medical is far from assured.  If you do get a third class, you can then switch to Basic Med for less hassle.  Assuming you get that and the other things done, I think the market may be softening slightly.  Airplane prices (or anything else for that matter) will probably never go back to where they were, but may be coming down a little.

probably what I need to hear. I'm hearing you say, "the market is stabilizing, your still in the hunt. Relax and just put the horse up front" 

thanks

[DonMuncy]

One bit of advice not mentioned; stay on Mooneyspace and read a lot. Find a Mooney owner near you; get to know him/her and hang out. Most of us are happy to share information.

[Dtips]

10 hours ago, carusoam said:

This is the tough part about technical writing…

The above posts are actually quite positive… relaying some challenges that may be found along the way… and methods to avoid those challenges…

 

All are an attempt to help out the OP…  oddly, it may not seem that way.   

Without knowing very much about the OP…

Like where in the Mooney World is he?

Wanna see a Mooney up close?

Is he anywhere near TX?   AAA is a great place to see and feel Mooneys up close.

I updated my diatribe above a couple of times… trying to soften the negativity, without being full blown Mooniac crazy…  

Best regards,

-a-

 

I live in remote southern AZ. most recently, my job has me at the airport every day. There's not a lot of Mooneys but one or two.  I talk to the A&P on the field once a week and anyone with a hangar open that doesn't look too annoyed by my presence.  

[Dtips]

You guys are pretty awesome. I appreciate everyone who commented here. I was encouraged to post here so I would hear exactly this.

I know it's all coming from the right place. I'm still on the path.

[Fly Boomer]

1 minute ago, Dtips said:

I'm still on the path.

This is the way.

[Dtips]

12 hours ago, carusoam said:

Welcome aboard Dtips!

1) You have come to the right place… to learn about what you are trying to accomplish…

2) If you have a ton of dough… train in your Mooney.

3) Short on dough…?  Training in your Mooney, isn’t usually the best route… until you are going after your instrument rating… IR.

4) Finding the right Mooney for you… will probably fit somewhere between M20A and M20V….
depending on how selective you are… may take a year to find and acquire the right one nicely dressed…, get started!

5) If you aren’t a mechanic… avoid the lower cost levels of any model…. The work involved to bring a worn out plane up to nice and safe… is prohibitively expensive…

6) planes have four costs… that can be added up. Airframe, engine, instrument panel, paint and interior…

7) if you want to be scared… look up the price to overhaul things to brand new condition… in the end, you end up with a brand new plane… with today’s cost, and 1970s vintage…

8) If you want to feel wealthy… look up what it costs to overhaul a brand P’s engine…  IO720…   

9) For the most part… searching for a first Mooney… there is a bit of a sweet spot in the alphabet…

10) Expect all Mooneys to have exactly four seats… some have a bit more leg room than the others…

11) Expect 98% of all Mooneys to have retractable gear and controllable pitch prop.  Essential bits of a fast efficient plane…

12) Entry level Mooneys come with two Lycoming engine choices… O360, and IO360…

13) O360s are carbureted and 180hp…  IO360s use fuel injection and other details to get to 200hp… the extra 10% hp is actually meaningful for many.

14) The sweet spot… M20C to M20J.  Easy, natural, step-up from the trainer…  your insurance provider will define transition training for you… often 10 - 20 hours before solo flight and then taking passengers…

15) The C, has the O360, it is a short body Mooney… makes a great plane for a family of four… until the kids grow to full size.

16) The E, like the M20C, has the IO360… preferred by the retired crowd… perfect plane for two people, with room to take four, on short hops…

17) The F, like the M20E, with more room in the back… preferred by Money makers that sit in the back…

18) The G, an oddity, it is the mid body Mooney like the F, but sports the M20C’s carbureted engine… aka the turtle of the Mooney crowd… 

19) Next step up…. The Modern Mooneys… starting with the M20J… Mooney got out the aerodynamics book, and fiberglass… and modernized the M20F… and called it the M20J.

20) So start looking for what plane fits your desires and needs… and start building your list of needs… Controller seems to be a nice place to find Mooneys….

 

use caution… if looking at mid level M20Cs, and you see an M20F at the same price…  there is probably a reason for that pricing oddity… dig deeper to figure out why it is priced so low… something may be damaged or worn out…

Buying a plane… There is something called a pre-purchase inspection… PPI… it is imperfectly, the best protection for your wallet…

There are no bad Mooney models… but, old machines have a tendency to need proper care over time… all planes need proper care, not just Mooneys…

My first Mooney… M20C.

I found MS while looking for my next Mooney… M20J / Missile… 

My second Mooney turned out to be an M20R… aka Standing Ovation…

I got my IR… between ownership of the two planes… in 2008. It’s been a while.  

 

Nothing cooler than waking up in the morning… checking the weather… and have the grandkids visit their grandparents hundreds of miles away…and be back later in the day… or three days later… depending on how you feel.
 

Life is short… Fly Fast!

Go Mooney!

You can do it!

PP thoughts only, not a plane sales guy…

Best regards,

-a-

Thanks for laying it all out. I appreciate you. 

[Danb]

18 hours ago, Dtips said:

My goal has always been to get my license and own a plane. When I was 17 i embarked on my mission to become a pilot. As the story so often goes, i ran out of money just before I finished(I'd passed the written, had my solo x-countries done and was mostly just the check ride away).  I got laid off and had to discontinue my dreams.  35 years later, I'm ready to finish. I'd like to finish. My medical is in deferment but I'm hoping the powers that be will see that I've worked hard to overcome the mistakes. i have a cfi at the ready and have been brushing up on ground schools to make sure I'm solid when i get back in the skies.

I think the kind of flying i want to eventually do (x-country travel, explore new areas of the country when I retire soon, maybe take my family along when I'm proficient enough to have them join me) and my current financial situation seems to lead me to a legacy mooney. I always thought they were so damn cool.  I've sat on the sideline for probably too long and watched prices skyrocket.  I know there's a lot to aircraft ownership, I'm not well off but I've saved a bit and think I could handle 50-85k, hangar fees, insurance (prob a load here in a retract for a zero-time guy but hoping to get some hours in and maybe get IFR to keep that from beating me up) and annuals as long as they aren't too bad. I've been thru trade-a-plane, controller, barnstormer, social media and I think I may be able to make some of the cheaper ones work with my budget but am terrified of getting in over my head..."there's nothing more expensive than a cheap plane", I've heard.  I'm also afraid if prices continue to climb it will easily price me out of my dreams.  So, long story even longer, I've been looking into getting something on the cheaper side (VFR capable low time m20c with aestetic issues or even something run out for 40kish that i could get and know an overhaul is coming) and finish my training in it and hopefully it's my trainer, time builder and forever plane.

Am I crackers? is my cart too far in front of my horse or is this at all doable?

thanks in advance for any constructive criticism.

Your asking all of us if it’s doable, well seems so. I’d get my licensure done, fly  a couple hundred hours determine your mission, I hate the word mission, your financial situation figure everything goes wrong ‘cause it does then if you check all your boxes get the plane that fits your situation, much better word than mission. Planes fly and cost more sitting doing nothing except racking up bills. All the calculations you’ll read here are bull and rhetoric. Hope you make it and join MooneyAir not as exclusive as other brands. Luckily we have planes good solid quality planes ranging from $50k up to and through $800k. Good luck finish up your PPL

[Shadrach]

16 hours ago, Dtips said:

Am I crackers? is my cart too far in front of my horse or is this at all doable?

I don’t think you’re crackers but I do think you’re over your skis.

Getting back into the air is doable.

Getting into a Mooney is doable.

The wild card here is the medical. My sense is that there is a personal story there (I’m certainly not requesting details) that has you in limbo for the time being. I would urge you to make attaining a medical your primary goal as all of the others hinge depend on that achievement.  

Plenty of people have trained in Mooneys. I personally don’t think there’s much, if any advantage to doing so. The airframe is robust for sure, but it is not as forgiving as a low speed trainer when it comes to mishandling and in most cases, quit a bit more expensive to repair if something goes pare shaped.  The first airplane I ever landed was a Mooney. I could land it unassisted from either seat by the time I was 16 but I still trained in an old C150. Some folks will argue that the military starts pilots out in high performance trainers, but that kind of immersive training is not typical of civilian training regimens.

I do think buying a trainer can be an economical alternative to renting. Cessna and piper trainers certainly aren’t depreciating. And while they have skyrocket in price there are deals to be had and you’ll not likely lose much if anything if you sell it a few years later.

 

[Hank]

@Dtips, don't try to do it all step-by-step. This calls for a shotgun approach.

• work through whatever your medical issues are
• get with a CFI and get back in the air, but no solo flight without the medical
• look for that perfect Mooney
• put your name on the hangar list at your airport, and some surrounding ones
• when your 3rd Class is issued, go full speed to complete your PPL. But you'll still have time to search the Net and talk to fellow pilots and look for "your" Mooney.

Question:  how long ago were you originally a student? Did you have a 3rd  Class then? Sounds like you did. My memory is a little hazy, but there's a date for Basic Med that says you needed to have a valid [no yet expired] Medical of any class by a particular date, maybe July 2007 or some such. Find that date and see if your previous medical was valid then.

Once you are in the air with a medical, don't renew it but go to Basic Med. The AOPA website has all the details, available free without even membership. For now, add this as a research item:  1) finish up current medical situation. You can't go Basic Med with a medical submitted and not approved; 2) look around for a good plane; 3) find out all about Basic Med; 4) get on hangar waiting lists.

And don't forget to have fun while doing all of this! After working all day, of course . . . .

[Andy95W]

3 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

This is the way.

 

[Nokomis449]

Keep your eyes on a Mooney but buy a cheap trainer for... training.  And time building.  Mooney insurance will eat you alive if you can even get it with such low time and no IFR rating.  On the other hand, taking two hours to get somewhere in a trainer vs 1 hour in a Mooney is great time building.  A friend wants a Mooney for the speed but even though he's a PP at 150 hours, I can't get him on my insurance because he's not IFR rated.  So he bought into a Piper140 because it's cheap to maintain, he can get his instrument rating in it, and he can fly it anywhere he wants to go, all while building time toward a future Mooney.  And with proper care and a little luck, he can be reasonably assured of getting most all of his money out of the Piper.

[MikeOH]

I'm not sure I'd buy a trainer to get your PPC if you really plan on getting a Mooney later.

First off, you are going to spend the transaction costs twice (pre-buy, escrow, sales tax...).  Plus, you always run the risk of expensive repairs/engine OH that will be YOUR problem, not the FBO/flight school's.  Maintenance is on you, too.  All while you are trying to learn to fly you'll be learning to be an owner!  Then, you've got the hassle of marketing and selling later.

Next, I really never had a problem scheduling lessons at flight schools...it was only after I had my PPC and wanted to rent to take trips that scheduling/daily mins became an unwanted complication.

IOW, I don't see a lot of advantages to owning a beater to learn to fly in.

[LANCECASPER]

12 hours ago, Dtips said:

You guys are pretty awesome. I appreciate everyone who commented here. I was encouraged to post here so I would hear exactly this.

I know it's all coming from the right place. I'm still on the path.

You just need to jump on the horse and go find the cart which passed the horse on the way down that steep hill and is now a couple miles down the road. . lol

Seriously tho, you may need to work with someone that specializes in FAA medical issues - they know well the hoops that need to be jumped through and seem to have a fast track to getting things done. You've probably already done this, but if you haven't, google "faa medical deferred" and you'll find people that do this and could at least give you an idea of what your chances are. You've been through this once, they've been through it many times.

When you get your medical and then your PPL, rent or get in a flying club and set a goal of __ number of hours in __ number of months. You'll know if flying is something you really want to pursue. Many people take lessons, fewer people by a large margin get their license and many fewer people than that stick with it. During reaching your goal the right deal on an airplane may come along unexpectedly, since you're around pilots and CFIs. The right deal seems never to come along if you are too anxious to buy. The point I'm trying to make is get the pilot goal out of the way first, get some hours under your belt and then if you're still passionate, set a goal of ownership.

(I bought a 172 2/3 of the way to my license but my life was uncluttered,  I was 22 and passionate about it and didn't have the medical issue. I flew it 500 hours in 3 years, made some money on it and put that toward something nicer/faster, etc. etc.)