Bravo AOG, Need the Dreaded V-Band Clamp

[alextstone]

Anyone out there have ANY idea where I might procure the Unicorn of all Mooney parts right now, the Lycoming 40D2355-340M V-Band Coupling (or the corresponding Aeroquip or Eaton part)....I'll forever be in your debt.  

 

Thank you,

Alex Touchstone

N1084U based at KPIB

[Rmnpilot]

When I needed one, I contacted most every Mooney, Piper, exhaust and turbo shop out there.   The Piper shops had them but wouldn’t sell them to me because they were repair facilities.    I had one on order from Textron which if I recall was due to ship soon, but since I acquired one I cancelled that order.   Perhaps someone has them now, just at a very inflated price.  I’ll dig around and see if anyone I know has access to one. 

[alextstone]

5 minutes ago, Rmnpilot said:

When I needed one, I contacted most every Mooney, Piper, exhaust and turbo shop out there.   The Piper shops had them but wouldn’t sell them to me because they were repair facilities.    I had one on order from Textron which if I recall was due to ship soon, but since I acquired one I cancelled that order.   Perhaps someone has them now, just at a very inflated price.  I’ll dig around and see if anyone I know has access to one. 

Thank you!  I have searched extensively and I have one on order at Textron but no lead time offered.  I've even offered to pay the AOG fee.  I appreciate you checking.

[Fritz1]

I take it that you have confirmed that you cannot satisfy the AD by inspection, there were long threads on that subject. I lucked out since I have a riveted clamp on my 2011 factory rebuilt engine.

[Fritz1]

If your clamp is cracked you may find a serviceable clamp by calling salvage places that have Bravo airframe parts and find out where the turbo and the exhaust went, to my best understanding the riveted clamp can be re-torqued twice. Not the prettiest solution, based on finding a used clamp and being able to determine if it is serviceable.

[alextstone]

My 

16 minutes ago, Fritz1 said:

If your clamp is cracked you may find a serviceable clamp by calling salvage places that have Bravo airframe parts and find out where the turbo and the exhaust went, to my best understanding the riveted clamp can be re-torqued twice. Not the prettiest solution, based on finding a used clamp and being able to determine if it is serviceable.

Thanks, mine is riveted but not serviceable...looking everywhere, including here...

[Fritz1]

Ah, can you post picture showing where your riveted clamp failed? 

[alextstone]

5 minutes ago, Fritz1 said:

Ah, can you post picture showing where your riveted clamp failed? 

I don't have one on hand at the moment however the threads on the T-bolt stripped / corroded and one of the clamping sections was somewhat loose (lateral play by 1/4 " at one end)

[Fritz1]

Got it, I inspect my three clamps at every 25h oil change, look at backside of turbo transition with borescope hoping to catch things before they get ugly, exhaust is weakest spot of otherwise pretty solid Bravo engine

[LANCECASPER]

2 hours ago, Fritz1 said:

I take it that you have confirmed that you cannot satisfy the AD by inspection, there were long threads on that subject. I lucked out since I have a riveted clamp on my 2011 factory rebuilt engine.

Whether it is riveted or not, you are limited to two re-torques on that clamp.

[carusoam]

2 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Whether it is riveted or not, you are limited to two re-torques on that clamp.

The hard part about using a V-band clamp with no written history…

How many torques does it really have?

What happens when it has too many?

 

 

The known part…

Bravos have experienced V-band clamp failures…

Leaking like a blow torch under the cowling…

That part of the exhaust system is under the most stress, highest temps, and greatest pressures… a tough place to be for a clamp…

 

Always use a CO monitor… it can help identify an exhaust leak near its beginning…

@mike_elliott is my go to guy for details on V-Band clamps… he has the experience of their weaknesses…

 

PP thoughts only… not a mechanic.

Best regards,

-a- 

[xcrmckenna]

It’s always been crazy to think about how a very essential and critical airplane part can go extinct in so many makes and models.

It would be great if there was a time that went by if a manufacturer wasn’t making said part the FAA could authorize the manufacturing up for bid, said portion went to original owner of part till they started remanufacturing or something. I know that’s way out in left field but just thinking outside the box to make ownership easier and less AOG’s.

Hope you find a v clamp soon and get back up flying.


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[LANCECASPER]

6 hours ago, carusoam said:

The hard part about using a V-band clamp with no written history…

How many torques does it really have?

What happens when it has too many?

Good mechanics will make logbook entries that mention, as an example, "One re-torque remaining" or "No re-torques remaining".

Having someone who is very familiar with the TIO-540-AF1B engine is essential if you own a Bravo. 

[Fly Boomer]

13 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Good mechanics will make logbook entries that mention, as an example, "One re-torque remaining" or "No re-torques remaining".

Having someone who is very familiar with the TIO-540-AF1B engine is essential if you own a Bravo. 

I don't have a Lycoming, but on my Continental, there is a little metal tag about 0.75 inches in diameter dangling somewhere on the turbo near the clamp.  I have never examined it closely.  Is that used in some way to document the number of times it's been torqued?

[LANCECASPER]

6 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

I don't have a Lycoming, but on my Continental, there is a little metal tag about 0.75 inches in diameter dangling somewhere on the turbo near the clamp.  I have never examined it closely.  Is that used in some way to document the number of times it's been torqued?

I've never seen one with a tag, but not a bad idea if it would hold up to the heat. The one on the Bravo didn't have one.

[N201MKTurbo]

6 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

I've never seen one with a tag, but not a bad idea if it would hold up to the heat. The one on the Bravo didn't have one.

All the ones on Turbo twin Cessna’s have the tag. I’ve only seen it on the one piece clamps. The cable keeps you from spreading it to far.

[N201MKTurbo]

[alextstone]

Over the past two days, I researched for hours and I made 22 phone calls to distributors, salvage businesses, Mooney Service Centers, and I even reached Eaton, the manufacturer of the couplings....the news is bleak (as in it could be 12-18 months before the production backlog is cleared and they will not tell me where in line these particular clamps reside).  BTW, just to "grind your gears" a bit, the reason for the backlog is that Eaton moved their manufacturing plant from Georgia to Tijuana, MX. 

 

So, If you are holding one of these clamps (serviceable or new) and you:

a) would love to do a huge favor for a fellow Mooniac

-or-

b) would like to make a handsome profit off of your purchase

-or-

c) both

PLEASE inbox me with your price and preferred payment method.  Thanks in advance.   

 

Alex

 

 

[Fritz1]

That really sucks and means that Bravo engines can't be overhauled right now, unless Lycoming has a secret stash for their own rebuilt engines. Moving production does not inspire a whole lot of confidence in the first clamps that come out of the new facility, EATON is a large company and these clamps are peanuts to them. Rumor has it that GAMI is working on a clamp of their own for all kinds of turbo applications including the Bravo engine, call them and find out how far they are down the road. For GAMI these clamps can be a substantial business opportunity.

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, Fritz1 said:

That really sucks and means that Bravo engines can't be overhauled right now, unless Lycoming has a secret stash for their own rebuilt engines. Moving production does not inspire a whole lot of confidence in the first clamps that come out of the new facility, EATON is a large company and these clamps are peanuts to them. Rumor has it that GAMI is working on a clamp of their own for all kinds of turbo applications including the Bravo engine, call them and find out how far they are down the road. For GAMI these clamps can be a substantial business opportunity.

As slow as things go in the aviation world it would surprise me if they were available in 3 years. Plus they are going to produce the ones where the high volume is first. And when you consider what the potential is for liability if one clamp fails, I can't imagine companies putting their entire future on one product. There needs to be a reasonable cap on that.

[kortopates]

…..
BTW, just to "grind your gears" a bit, the reason for the backlog is that Eaton moved their manufacturing plant from Georgia to Tijuana, MX. 
 

I don’t have any inside information on this but i am pretty sure the backlog is due to the AD inspiring every turbo owner to buy one or more before they needed it to avoid your very own situation. They became scarce the moment the AD came out. i am still waiting on my order.

I hope you find one soon.


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[EricJ]

Yeah, the demand spike was probably way over normal production capacity, so it wouldn't matter where they're made.   I think OPP/VARMA on comparable equipment is going to be the way to go.   Just need to verify that the substitute meets specs, which I strongly suspect can be done.   

[alextstone]

Good Morning All,

I have an update that is mildly encouraging.  I spoke with John Paul at GAMI and he confirmed that GAMI is working with a machine shop and the FAA to manufacture v-band clamps under an STC.  He seemed to think that it could be as little as two months before production starts, provided the process continues to flow without issues.  That probably means more like 6 months but, hey, it's somewhat encouraging.  

[LANCECASPER]

26 minutes ago, alextstone said:

Good Morning All,

I have an update that is mildly encouraging.  I spoke with John Paul at GAMI and he confirmed that GAMI is working with a machine shop and the FAA to manufacture v-band clamps under an STC.  He seemed to think that it could be as little as two months before production starts, provided the process continues to flow without issues.  That probably means more like 6 months but, hey, it's somewhat encouraging.  

I would keep checking with Piper dealers also. The Mirage and the Saratoga use the same v-band. 

Sun Aviation is right next door to the factory in Vero Beach. https://www.sunaviation.com/parts.html

[affricate]

On 1/24/2024 at 10:21 PM, carusoam said:

The hard part about using a V-band clamp with no written history…

How many torques does it really have?

What happens when it has too many?

 

 

The known part…

Bravos have experienced V-band clamp failures…

Leaking like a blow torch under the cowling…

That part of the exhaust system is under the most stress, highest temps, and greatest pressures… a tough place to be for a clamp…

 

Always use a CO monitor… it can help identify an exhaust leak near its beginning…

@mike_elliott is my go to guy for details on V-Band clamps… he has the experience of their weaknesses…

 

PP thoughts only… not a mechanic.

Best regards,

-a- 

I love this carbon monoxide detector, purchased it off of Amazon. I like it because it has both visual and auditory alerts,