What questions should I ask a seller before traveling across the country to check out a plane in person?

[oisiaa]

Thanks to all for being very helpful in my quest to acquire a Mooney. I've found a strong candidate M20J that looks great based on pictures/description and a brief phone conversation with the seller. I'm not seeing any obvious red flags on a plane that appears to be well taken care of. I'm looking for help on what to ask before I travel across the country and waste my time on something that I could have learned on the phone.

I'm looking for help for the top 5-10 questions I should ask the seller. A few off the top of my head:

- All ADs complied with?

- Any STCs?

- What did the most recent annual find?

Thanks for any help!

[oisiaa]

The seller doesn't have scans of the logbooks and doesn't seem technically able to provide them. He also said he's too busy to email me a few dozen high quality pictures. I'm a bit put off by that and don't necessarily think he's hiding something. 

[Bolter]

12 minutes ago, oisiaa said:

The seller doesn't have scans of the logbooks and doesn't seem technically able to provide them. He also said he's too busy to email me a few dozen high quality pictures. I'm a bit put off by that and don't necessarily think he's hiding something. 

If the seller is so non-tech-savvy that they cannot take a photo of each page of the logbook with their phone , and then email it, tell them to ask their grandkid to do it.  

If someone is available, get an A&P to check it out in advance of your visit.  They will know more of what to look for than you, especially if it is one of the well known Mooney shops.  If travel is low cost to you, and you have the time, go ahead and make the trip with the expectation that you will walk up, and walk away.  I consider this a red flag.  There may not be any logs, for all you know at this point.  That kills the value of a plane. 

For my past purchases, the first step was a review of all of the logs.  In one case I saw a history of using the same A&P/IA for annuals for many years, then a different shop for the most recent annual, just a few weeks before listing, and just a few hours of flight since the annual 2 years before that.  I pursued it, but I was not surprised when pre-buy found metal in the filter, and I went with a different plane.  Glad I did not invest my time into visiting the plane myself.  (FYI:I am told that plane did get an overhaul, afterwards, but the seller was none to happy about it.)

[MikeOH]

24 minutes ago, oisiaa said:

The seller doesn't have scans of the logbooks and doesn't seem technically able to provide them. He also said he's too busy to email me a few dozen high quality pictures. I'm a bit put off by that and don't necessarily think he's hiding something. 

Sorry, but that is a HUGE red flag to me! No way I would travel to see a plane, let alone one across the country, without first reviewing the logs. You could answer your initial questions above without leaving your Lazy Boy!

If he can’t figure out how to scan them, then he should take them to a service that can! Not having logs available in electronic form in this day and age is not acceptable.

 

Ah, I see Bolter types faster

[Fritz1]

FEDEX Kinko will do scan of logbooks, anybody interested in the plane will want to see the log books as a first step, no need to spend time and money on travel unless log books look good, FEDEX Kinko will send log books to your email or find a way to get them to you

[EricJ]

36 minutes ago, oisiaa said:

The seller doesn't have scans of the logbooks and doesn't seem technically able to provide them. He also said he's too busy to email me a few dozen high quality pictures. I'm a bit put off by that and don't necessarily think he's hiding something. 

Sounds like they're not very serious about selling the airplane.

[oisiaa]

This guy is unbelievable... I'm trying to buy his product and he's unwilling to do the slightest legwork. It's a business, not an individual seller.

Their website says they've been involed in over 500 transactions....with this level of customer service? 

https://pristineairplanes.com/

Edited October 24, 2023 by oisiaa

[GeeBee]

Run away.

 

[oisiaa]

It's this plane for anyone curious (N166X): https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?listing_id=2421381#

Edited October 24, 2023 by oisiaa

[ta2too]

3 minutes ago, oisiaa said:

It's this plane for anyone curious: https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?listing_id=2421381#

 

They are the listed owners of that plane. Purchased earlier this month. Walk away. I suggest you call Jimmy Garrison at GMax Aircraft. He is a well known, highly respected Mooney dealer who will either have a plane for you or will find what you are looking for.  

[oisiaa]

I'm pushing him for logs, but expect to not go through with it. He told me that it's been flying before he acquired it, but I can't find any ADS-B tracks other than the flight to his location and maybe one test flight a few days prior unless ADS-B was only recently installed. 

[Bolter]

Won't even make time to scan the logs...  Is the used airplane market that hot right now?

[Ragsf15e]

8 minutes ago, oisiaa said:

I'm pushing him for logs, but expect to not go through with it. He told me that it's been flying before he acquired it, but I can't find any ADS-B tracks other than the flight to his location and maybe one test flight a few days prior unless ADS-B was only recently installed. 

If you talk to Jimmy Garrison, as mentioned above, you will probably save yourself a lot of time. You might even save yourself money because he will save you from a bad airplane or at least tell you what you’re getting. If you explain to him what your mission is, he will validate, what type you’re looking for, and he will go find it if he doesn’t have one available. 

[ArtVandelay]

Won't even make time to scan the logs...  Is the used airplane market that hot right now?

I swear, some of the things I hear about I wonder how these people stay in business.

[oisiaa]

18 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

If you talk to Jimmy Garrison, as mentioned above, you will probably save yourself a lot of time. You might even save yourself money because he will save you from a bad airplane or at least tell you what you’re getting. If you explain to him what your mission is, he will validate, what type you’re looking for, and he will go find it if he doesn’t have one available. 

With multiple referrals, I'll reach out to him and see how he can help. I'm not necessarily looking to buy today, or even in 6 months so hopefully he can help me keep an eye out. Seems like buying a plane has more pitfalls than buying a house.

[oisiaa]

It seems like me doing even the most basic due diligence was too much for him. He's not even responding to me after pushing for the logs as a "fundamental part of this process". 

Edited October 24, 2023 by oisiaa

[0TreeLemur]

It seems well priced for what it looks like in the photos.  More photos of other side of plane would be great.  Seems to have had a recent(ish) paint job.   Given sellers unwillingness to provide log books, I'd ask for a phone call to discuss its history.  If the seller is unwilling to do that, then walk.  If by phone, I'd be prepared to ask a lot of questions.   Ownership time?  Maintenance history?   How often flown (hours/y) for the past five years?  What year were tanks last re-sealed?  Always hangared?  Major work done in the last 10 years?   If you get a good feeling after that, then pay to go see it.

That's what I'd do.   That relatively low time engine and new(ish) paint job is a big draw.

[Danb]

22 minutes ago, oisiaa said:

It seems like me doing even the most basic due diligence was too much for him. He's not even responding to me after pushing for the logs as a "fundamental part of this process". 

Eliminate that plane, if the sellers not willing to do his minimal part, he doesn’t want to sell it that bad. As mentioned give Jimmy a call

D

[Marc_B]

23 minutes ago, oisiaa said:

I'm not necessarily looking to buy today, or even in 6 months so hopefully he can help me keep an eye out

Perhaps it was felt you were just kicking the tires and not really serious about buying.  But not providing log books seems like a red flag.

Every once in a while the right one comes around and those are usually gone before you know it. I’d recommend you get all insurance info, escrow and financing set up, and be ready to move asap when you find a keeper. I found a keeper and that convinced me I was serious and I set up everything including getting money ready to put immediately in escrow for deposit. 

While looking I saw several logs that showed how well (or not) an aircraft was cared for. Log review is invaluable to determine what to expect to find on PPI as well as what’s on horizon for first and future annuals/maintenance. 

But id say have your ducks in a row first, then be ready to move immediately for the right one, but patient and deliberate enough to walk away from red flags…its not just the initial purchase price, but the price of future maintenance as well.

https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-and-ownership/buying-an-aircraft/aircraft-title-and-escrow-services

I used this service through AOPA for escrow and title service. Very helpful for a first time buyer and AOPA helped with contract offer as well.
 

And if you plan to hangar (you should) get working on that last week! Seems like that’s the hardest thing to find these days. 
 

if you haven’t looked at logs before, find some on Controller or TAP and actually go through them entry by entry. Even better if you get a list of scheduled maintenance (tires, shock disc, magnetos, oxygen tank, etc.). You can quickly begin to see a pattern with maintenance, what’s outstanding and what’s upcoming, as well as getting a feel for how thorough maintenance was…minimum needed vs complete, only at annual vs when needed. 

[Marc_B]

Regarding what to ask and what to look for...  I found this Aircraft Status Worksheet on the Mooney Flyer particularly helpful.  I've been using it and modified it for my data as well as other items I want to track.  It also has a "how to use" instructions and already lists some common time frames for maintenance.

https://themooneyflyer.com/tools.html

https://themooneyflyer.com/Excel/AircraftStatusSheet2.xlsx

https://themooneyflyer.com/pdf/ACstatusINSTRUCT.pdf

[Bartman]

If the seller does not send you logs, either he is hiding and does not want a copy in circulation, or as Spoon Boy from The Matrix would say....there are no logs.

[Fritz1]

call Jimmy Garrison, he knows his stuff, I bought my plane through him, no surprises there. This is my second airplane, I knew pretty much what I wanted and it took me two years to find it, thereafter it took me two years get it where I wanted it which I think is pretty normal for an airplane that was 17 years old when I bought it.

[Tx_Aggie]

Go with your gut on this. If you’ve looked at listings for a little while you’ll see most sellers are willing to send digital logs. Some even post the logs with the listing. Someone who doesn’t send logs is not serious about selling or is covering up issues. You can usually get a head start by looking up the N number on myairplane.com/reports. Or something similar. Google that and you’ll access a website that accesses  several of the databases for major work/crashes/incidents. 
 

Also you can probably thread together things like no flight history other than most recently to the airport of the broker, or ownership by someone who’s airport is on the coast for multiple years, tend to tell a story you might not want to be part of. I wouldn’t put anything through a Prebuy inspection until I’ve had a chance to take notes on the logs. 
 

you’re going at it the right way though. Keep on hunting and asking questions!

[Tx_Aggie]

Jimmy has a lot of success around here, but don’t discount the individual person selling either.
 

One thing to consider too is if the registered owner has had the plane longer than a year. It’s not always the case but a person is generally serious and knows their plane if they’ve had it for 3-5 years. If the registered owner has had it 12 months or less, they may just be flipping it and not really concerned about you getting a good plane. 
 

#thingsyoulearnalongtheway

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Tx_Aggie

[DCarlton]

This thread is convincing me to get off my ass and spend a half day scanning my logs.  Can’t imagine handing them over to someone else to scan.  The old ones would probably fall apart and be a complete mess when I got them back.  New ones not so hard.