m2m BRAVO questions and advice redundancy nav and autopilot ( this is a bit complicated )

[pkofman]

I keep hitting roadblocks on this one

I have a Bravo m20m

I have a aspen pfd, 750 nix and kap 150 + and a g5 ( reference only ). I also have a second nav com , an old adf, and dme ( just never Tok them out)

My aspen is primary and the 750xi are the main event for driving the plane and autopilot kap150.with alt preselect., it also has gpss functionality

Ive learned that aspen and Garmin do not speak the same language when addressing the autopilot , so its one or the other. ( might no be correct )

 

My objective

I want a second gps and second pfd , and I want them to drive the autopilot in the event either of my primary devices  failed

Ive also come to learn that the ea100 might be the limiting device in my system

Note I do not have a vacuum system at this time.long gone.

My shop keeps telling me that this is nearly impossible without changing the,autopilt and pfd system to a full Garmin system ( which is $$$$)

and even if I add just a second gps ( like a 650xi ) that regardless in the event of failure I can't just flick a switch so that I could go from a failed 750 to 650 , and/or if I installed a second aspen mfd/pfd, (that even though it might function as a 2nd pfd It won't be able to drive the autopilot )so that I can shoot an IFR  approach

I feel there must be a way to make this work

This might be overkill  on my part but I really want redundancy in hard Ifr  

It might not be possible  without spending $$$$, at that point I might consider another plane

This might be a too complicated for a post but thought I would ask.

Im sure someone here has come up against this in the past ... Pete

 

[LANCECASPER]

If you don't want to change everything out at this point,  add a second Aspen. If you haven't upgraded your Aspen to a Max it would be good to do that and the 2nd Aspen will have to be a Max. It will have a reversionary mode (push REV button on upper right side of Aspen) since both will have backup batteries.

As you already know it's easy to select which source your Aspen is receiving (GPS1 or 2, Nav 1 or 2, ADF, etc.), so if you decide to add a second GPS that's straight-forward

 

Then add a switch to select which PFD is driving the autopilot.   https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/7b02bswqp7z4fggge2cen/N134JF-panel-March-2021-AP-switch.jpg?rlkey=0tzcb27fbp00ybcuyf18gesde&dl=0

This switch determines which Aspen sends the information to the EA100, which in turn sends it to the autopilot.

In theory you could probably have two EA100's with a switch to give redundancy - Aspen would have to weigh in on that.

 

I did this on a Bravo I previously owned.  https://www.dropbox.com/s/9wvemse0t9xcntp/N134JF panel March 2021.png?dl=0

 

Keep in mind though at some point if you decide to do a completely new Garmin panel you'll have to basically start over and you won't recover much of your previous avionics investment.

[Pinecone]

I am considering a back up battery for my upcoming panel.

G3X and 750xi and autopilot on back up.  G-5 has its own backup battery.

And my right panel will be my AERA 760 which has a battery, own GPS and own AHARS.

[Danb]

760 looks really nice Terry 

[pkofman]

7 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

If you don't want to change everything out at this point,  add a second Aspen. If you haven't upgraded your Aspen to a Max it would be good to do that and the 2nd Aspen will have to be a Max. It will have a reversionary mode (push REV button on upper right side of Aspen) since both will have backup batteries.

As you already know it's easy to select which source your Aspen is receiving (GPS1 or 2, Nav 1 or 2, ADF, etc.), so if you decide to add a second GPS that's straight-forward

 

Then add a switch to select which PFD is driving the autopilot.   https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/7b02bswqp7z4fggge2cen/N134JF-panel-March-2021-AP-switch.jpg?rlkey=0tzcb27fbp00ybcuyf18gesde&dl=0

This switch determines which Aspen sends the information to the EA100, which in turn sends it to the autopilot.

In theory you could probably have two EA100's with a switch to give redundancy - Aspen would have to weigh in on that.

 

I did this on a Bravo I previously owned.  https://www.dropbox.com/s/9wvemse0t9xcntp/N134JF panel March 2021.png?dl=0

 

Keep in mind though at some point if you decide to do a completely new Garmin panel you'll have to basically start over and you won't recover much of your previous avionics investment.

I have no idea why my shop says this is impossible. thank you for sending the pics. very nice panel  I want to do exactly what you show .. a switch to change. the nav source to drive the a/p to minimums . but one question . if your 750 fails do you have a back up gps. From what I understand it is not the aspen driving the a/p it is the 750 . through the ea100. I have no idea if an ea100 can take two sperate and discreet sources.   I do know that if the first aspen fails then I can revert to the mfd . I also know that if the 750 fails , I could have a second gps but according to my shop the second source cannot drive the a/p for Ifr. I also know that I cannot install or reinstall  a vacuum system in the event of failure. The a/p can take on or the other.. This redundancy thing is seemingly  a challenge. thank you for the feedback

 

[LANCECASPER]

8 minutes ago, pkofman said:

I have no idea why my shop says this is impossible. thank you for sending the pics. very nice panel  I want to do exactly what you show .. a switch to change. the nav source to drive the a/p to minimums . but one question . if your 750 fails do you have a back up gps. From what I understand it is not the aspen driving the a/p it is the 750 . through the ea100. I have no idea if an ea100 can take two sperate and discreet sources.   I do know that if the first aspen fails then I can revert to the mfd . I also know that if the 750 fails , I could have a second gps but according to my shop the second source cannot drive the a/p for Ifr. I also know that I cannot install or reinstall  a vacuum system in the event of failure. The a/p can take on or the other.. This redundancy thing is seemingly  a challenge. thank you for the feedback

 

I believe they are wrong on the 2nd GPS. It will show up as GPS 2 on your Aspen and will feed to your autopilot.

I didn't have two IFR GPS's on my Bravo. My GPS1 was an Avidyne IFD550. I always felt if I lost my GPS I could still just go to the HDG on my Aspen and use my heading bug and my portable GPS. I also could use my NAV 2 VOR as my source which was a King KX155. The autopilot would drive via the HDG or NAV.

[philiplane]

If you have no vacuum system the KAP150 is getting attitude information from the Aspen/EA100. That allows the autopilot to maintain a heading or an altitude.

The 750 gives navigation info to the autopilot. Left/right commands. And vertical commands for LPV or ILS approaches.

If the Aspen fails, you have no autopilot whatsoever. So first, you would want a second Aspen as a backup. If the GTN750 fails, you still can hold altitude, and use the Aspen for heading hold.  

[pkofman]

19 hours ago, philiplane said:

If you have no vacuum system the KAP150 is getting attitude information from the Aspen/EA100. That allows the autopilot to maintain a heading or an altitude.

The 750 gives navigation info to the autopilot. Left/right commands. And vertical commands for LPV or ILS approaches.

If the Aspen fails, you have no autopilot whatsoever. So first, you would want a second Aspen as a backup. If the GTN750 fails, you still can hold altitude, and use the Aspen for heading hold.  

So i was thinking, would it be possible to have a second Aspen and a second ea100? Basically, switch from one to the other in the event of failure of a singular aspen. If I add an additional nav source ( GPS 650 ) then perhaps I could solve this redundancy issue. But my shop told me today, that doing that  2 ea100'a would require some special avionics approval.( FYI, im in Canada). Im my current situation, if the a/p fails im hand flying, I'd the GPS fails im using my iPad or, conventional ground-based sources, (which are few and far between these days ), if the Aspen fails, i could get a reference from the g5 and use the iPad.  

In a perfect world, I would like dual pdf, and dual independent (non-conventional nav sources ) that could all drive the a/p, but I think im asking too much, given the feedback!

[jetdriven]

23 hours ago, Pinecone said:

I am considering a back up battery for my upcoming panel.

G3X and 750xi and autopilot on back up.  G-5 has its own backup battery.

And my right panel will be my AERA 760 which has a battery, own GPS and own AHARS.

760 has a bullshit AHRS. It's not really AHRS. 

[philiplane]

2 hours ago, pkofman said:

So i was thinking, would it be possible to have a second Aspen and a second ea100? Basically, switch from one to the other in the event of failure of a singular aspen. If I add an additional nav source ( GPS 650 ) then perhaps I could solve this redundancy issue. But my shop told me today, that doing that  2 ea100'a would require some special avionics approval.( FYI, im in Canada). Im my current situation, if the a/p fails im hand flying, I'd the GPS fails im using my iPad or, conventional ground-based sources, (which are few and far between these days ), if the Aspen fails, i could get a reference from the g5 and use the iPad.  

In a perfect world, I would like dual pdf, and dual independent (non-conventional nav sources ) that could all drive the a/p, but I think im asking too much, given the feedback!

No to the dual EA100, without getting engineering/Transport Canada approvals. 

The dual Aspen to single EA100 is part of their STC so it's just a matter of spending the money.

[pkofman]

2 hours ago, philiplane said:

No to the dual EA100, without getting engineering/Transport Canada approvals. 

The dual Aspen to single EA100 is part of their STC so it's just a matter of spending the money.

thxs awesome that someone here can speak to the tc engineering approval process for this l. I'm not sure if you have experience with the specific ea100 approval re TC but in general, is this just a crapshoot, or is it possible to get TC approval for something like this? Would it be easy  and just a matter of  spending the money and time ( btw what sort of times involved ?) , 

Im starting to think that the dual Aspen idea is just getting complicated. 

Who here would throw out the Aspen and start all over with a Garmin flight deck that would be able to take 2 GPS sources., and fly the the autopilot from two independent sources

not sure if garmins glass flight decks, aspen equivalent,has a dual independent pfd option. So if the pdf fails, is there a backup?

So a  garmin config, flight deck with redundant pfd. Add a 650xi, and leave the kap 150 ,. Will that solve my issue?

 

[donkaye]

As everyone knows, while I fly and teach with any avionics, I have the complete Garmin package in my airplane.  I have the G500 TXi with G5 for backup and a GTN 750Xi and GTN 650Xi.  If the TXi doesn't fail, the autopilot can be switched to run off of either GPS.  If the TXi fails, the autopilot will be fully functional, but can only be run off of the GTN 750 Xi.  Garmin will not allow the G5 to be fed from 2 sources.  In that case in that emergency situation the autopilot could be put in Heading mode and flown using the GTN 650 Xi, Aera 760, or iPad.  I haven't tested that, but will.

[LANCECASPER]

11 hours ago, pkofman said:

Who here would throw out the Aspen and start all over with a Garmin flight deck that would be able to take 2 GPS sources., and fly the the autopilot from two independent sources

The Aspen you have right now will allow 2 GPS sources and will fly the autopilot from two independent GPS units. If everything is wired to your Aspen you can also toggle through NAV (VOR) sources, etc. and fly them with the autopilot.


On the picture below touch the middle button on the bottom and move through the sources to select the one you want. If you do this in heading mode you won't have any abrupt changes in direction while you are selecting what you want and then go back to GPSS once you've selected what you want.




To get more familiar with all of the features, you might consider buying the Sporty's course for your Aspen to watch on your iPad. There are a lot of features built in. When I had Aspens I would watch that at least once a year and I learned something every time. 

[Pinecone]

15 hours ago, jetdriven said:

760 has a bullshit AHRS. It's not really AHRS. 

Better than nothing.

[pkofman]

8 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

The Aspen you have right now will allow 2 GPS sources and will fly the autopilot from two independent GPS units. If everything is wired to your Aspen you can also toggle through NAV (VOR) sources, etc. and fly them with the autopilot.


On the picture below touch the middle button on the bottom and move through the sources to select the one you want. If you do this in heading mode you won't have any abrupt changes in direction while you are selecting what you want and then go back to GPSS once you've selected what you want.




To get more familiar with all of the features, you might consider buying the Sporty's course for your Aspen to watch on your iPad. There are a lot of features built in. When I had Aspens I would watch that at least once a year and I learned something every time. 

Yes i understand this completely and it is correct . very familiar , good point , 

in my situation I wanted a back up pfd,  so another aspen.

and another GPS.. so a 650 xi ( any other option??)

given the limitation without spending 10k for a tc approval. the ea100 only allows for one source to run the autopilot.. so if number 1 apsen fails you are hand flying.

it is a game of odds for me ,, ie what will fail first.gps or aspen.   

if the GPS fails I have a back up ... 650xi

if the aspen #1  fails ... no autopilot, and I'm hand flying the plane but I would have the 2nd aspen for reference and yes I fly with a iPad and  I have a gdl 52 which can be helpful

so I have some functionality ( and I have a vor and dme and even a adf in the plane )

after all of this discussion , ( and I don't want to really spend 100k )  to change everything to garmin on my plane , (98 with 2200 hours and 1000  on this engine)

"It seems to me that I should add the aspen mdf, and 650xi ( unless there is another GPS) to save some money ,and that's about the best i will do without " the full garmin option  as it is just uber expensive

That might be the least cost option and helps to manage the risk.

Lets see what the shop has to say about this solution..

but of course i just do nothing and maybe that is ok as well...I've been flying this machine just like this for 3 years so far.

 

 

[LANCECASPER]

13 minutes ago, pkofman said:

"It seems to me that I should add the aspen mdf, and 650xi ( unless there is another GPS) to save some money ,and that's about the best i will do without " the full garmin option  as it is just uber expensive

An Aspen MFD (500) won't do it - you need a second PFD (1000) to get the reversionary mode.

[pkofman]

25 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

An Aspen MFD (500) won't do it - you need a second PFD (1000) to get the reversionary mode.

yes this guy....https://aspenavionics.com/products/general-aviation/evolution-1000-mfd-max.   not really sure what a 2000 is all about comparatively,  

maybe the 2000 is just a package of the 1000 pfd and mfd together.. 

I already have the 1000 max

thxs

 

[LANCECASPER]

2 hours ago, pkofman said:

yes this guy....https://aspenavionics.com/products/general-aviation/evolution-1000-mfd-max.   not really sure what a 2000 is all about comparatively,  

maybe the 2000 is just a package of the 1000 pfd and mfd together.. 

I already have the 1000 max

thxs

 

That's the one. Even though they call it an MFD, it will have to be wired as a PFD with a separate Aspen RSM (remote sensor module) antenna on the roof.

[MIm20c]

@LANCECASPER already touched on this above but the ea100 does not have anything to do with your gps navigation source. It basically replaced your old ki256 attitude output information to your AP. Your current single display can easily receive navigation data from both sources.  IIRC you can add a 1000 max mfd to have a backup pfd and put a switch on the ea100 to pull attitude data off the backup mfd display. 
 

A failed ea100 will take your AP down. However, this is no different than a failed gad29b or 275 that feeds the data to a gfc500 AP.