My IA is retiring

[jaylw314]

Dang it!!!!!!

I've spoken before about Mike Ward, my IA that runs Flitewing in Salem, OR.  Well, I just found out he is retiring, and actually selling the building, so it looks like I will need to be finding a new shop this year  Bad for me, good for him.

Just wanted to complain

Edited May 23 by jaylw314

[Hank]

Be glad, @jaylw314, that he gave you notice. When I tried to contact my independent IA, who worked out of a very nicely equipped trailer, in November to arrange my January annual (would have been our 4th working together since I moved to Alabama), his phone was disconnected and he didn't answer emails. I'm just assuming (Occam's razor and all) that he retired . . . . Anyway, I had to work my way into someone else's schedule on short notice and it was b-a-a-a-a-d-d!! Hope your experience is better.

Anyway, the next IA does good work, can sort of keep a schedule, but does not alow owner assistance. So my annual has gone back up from a 3-day weekend working with the IA to a drop off and hope to pick it up in 2-3 weeks, to / from an airport with no approaches.

Best wishes to you.,

[philiplane]

this has been 30 years in the making. There are currently more than 8,000 job openings for aircraft mechanics. And for every new A&P school graduate, about 3 A&P's retire. 

 

https://resources.savvyaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/articles_aopa/AOPA_2023-05_mechanic-crisis.pdf

Edited May 24 by philiplane

[Rick Junkin]

35 minutes ago, philiplane said:

this has been 30 years in the making. There are currently more than 8,000 job openings for aircraft mechanics. And for every new A&P school graduate, about 3 A&P's retire. 

 

https://resources.savvyaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/articles_aopa/AOPA_2023-05_mechanic-crisis.pdf

I attended a Social Flight webinar with Mike Busch this evening where he spoke on this topic. 

Mike’s assessment is that most airplanes are over-maintained due to life limits and lack of owner involvement in doing the maintenance they can do. His solution, consistent with his advocacy for IRAN/IROC maintenance, is to eliminate the over-maintenance load on the shops by allowing aircraft owners to do more maintenance while getting rid of what he thinks are unnecessary life limits, and to raise the shop rates to $200/hr to increase pay for A&Ps to attract more candidates. Ouch.

He also advocated for flat rate inspections and flat rate service and repair for common work like automotive shops do. The hourly rate would still apply for unique maintenance work.

Another idea he and Jeff threw out was the idea of forming “Maintenance Clubs” of owners at an airport that hire a full time salaried A&P/IA to service their airplanes on call. Interesting idea, essentially concierge maintenance.  Guaranteed income for the A&P, guaranteed maintenance availability for the people in the club. The devil is in the details, but an interesting idea.

Things to think on for sure.

Cheers,
Rick

 

[jaylw314]

Thanks guys, it does sound like one of his A&P's is taking a lot of his equipment and going to be doing work out of another leased building, but I don't know the details and obviously annuals will still be an issue.  Luckily, I still have 6 months to sort it out 

[1980Mooney]

4 hours ago, Rick Junkin said:

Mike Busch this evening ..spoke on this topic. …His solution, ….and to raise the shop rates to $200/hr to increase pay for A&Ps to attract more candidates. Ouch.

Hey @M20Doc - your favorite subject!!

[SKI]

I think if the FAA wants to keep GA alive, Which I'm not sure it does honestly. It needs to address the GA mechanic shortage. You can't blame young A&P's for wanting to go to the airlines. That's where the most money is. As has been talked about here before I think they need to redo the way the A&P licenses are done. I think they should break it down more like our pilot licenses. The basic A&P license allows you to work on say piston singles and twins under such a GW for non commercial use. Then you can go to more classes to get different ratings for say Pressurized turbines, Radial engines, Tube and fabric ect. I don't think the curriculum should be any easier just less of it to get your basic A&P. I have a business that keeps me busy and I wouldn't want my A&P to make money per say. I'd get it and assemble a small group of pilots I could trust and help them with owner assisted maintenace. I would change some but not near what somebody would who's trying to put food on their table. It would be more of a hobby and a way to keep others hobby from running them broke of forcing them out of it all together. It will probably never happen but that's my 2 cents.

[Jerry 5TJ]

10 hours ago, Rick Junkin said:

Another idea he and Jeff threw out was the idea of forming “Maintenance Clubs” of owners at an airport that hire a full time salaried A&P/IA to service their airplanes on call. Interesting idea, essentially concierge maintenance.  Guaranteed income for the A&P, guaranteed maintenance availability for the people in the club. The devil is in the details, but an interesting idea.

You can do this on a smaller scale — My aviation partner and I pay an A&P a monthly retainer equal to several hours of his time.  That gives him a steady if supplemental cash flow and we get prompt attention to minor items.  There’s always something for him to work on, it’s an airplane….

[JimB]

12 hours ago, Rick Junkin said:

I attended a Social Flight webinar with Mike Busch this evening where he spoke on this topic. 

Mike’s assessment is that most airplanes are over-maintained due to life limits and lack of owner involvement in doing the maintenance they can do. His solution, consistent with his advocacy for IRAN/IROC maintenance, is to eliminate the over-maintenance load on the shops by allowing aircraft owners to do more maintenance while getting rid of what he thinks are unnecessary life limits, and to raise the shop rates to $200/hr to increase pay for A&Ps to attract more candidates. Ouch.

He also advocated for flat rate inspections and flat rate service and repair for common work like automotive shops do. The hourly rate would still apply for unique maintenance work.

Another idea he and Jeff threw out was the idea of forming “Maintenance Clubs” of owners at an airport that hire a full time salaried A&P/IA to service their airplanes on call. Interesting idea, essentially concierge maintenance.  Guaranteed income for the A&P, guaranteed maintenance availability for the people in the club. The devil is in the details, but an interesting idea.

Things to think on for sure.

Cheers,
Rick

 

The solution to most of the A&P shortages is going to be Apprenticeship programs at the airlines, in Part 145 shops and in small GA shops. The unlicensed will be supervised by the licensed A&P, earn a decent wage and can test for their A&P in 30 months. You can teach anyone how to open/close an aircraft for inspections, change tires/brakes, change oil etc. 

It works very well and is a win-win for everyone. 

Jim

[geoffb]

You're fortunate to have a wealth of Mooney experience about 300 yards from your hangar and other viable local resources.

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, geoffb said:

You're fortunate to have a wealth of Mooney experience about 300 yards from your hangar and other viable local resources.

Yes, I'm just complaining about change because I hate change 

[Hank]

2 hours ago, JimB said:

The unlicensed will be supervised by the licensed A&P, earn a decent wage and can test for their A&P in 30 months. You can teach anyone how to open/close an aircraft for inspections, change tires/brakes, change oil etc. 

It works very well and is a win-win for everyone. 

That's the part I usually do . . . . plus the occasional decision--go ahead and fix that; let that wait; etc.

[Will.iam]

9 hours ago, SKI said:

I think if the FAA wants to keep GA alive, Which I'm not sure it does honestly. It needs to address the GA mechanic shortage. You can't blame young A&P's for wanting to go to the airlines. That's where the most money is. As has been talked about here before I think they need to redo the way the A&P licenses are done. I think they should break it down more like our pilot licenses. The basic A&P license allows you to work on say piston singles and twins under such a GW for non commercial use. Then you can go to more classes to get different ratings for say Pressurized turbines, Radial engines, Tube and fabric ect. I don't think the curriculum should be any easier just less of it to get your basic A&P. I have a business that keeps me busy and I wouldn't want my A&P to make money per say. I'd get it and assemble a small group of pilots I could trust and help them with owner assisted maintenace. I would change some but not near what somebody would who's trying to put food on their table. It would be more of a hobby and a way to keep others hobby from running them broke of forcing them out of it all together. It will probably never happen but that's my 2 cents.

The problem now a days is the litigious nature of society. At my airpark there are no less than 5 AI’s and 30 a&p’s seems like damn near anyone with an airplane is an A&P. But none of them will put their signature on the books. As it’s not the pilot but their families and relatives that the a&p or ia fear will go after them and with all of them having another job or business that they own that is their primary income and accrued wealth it’s too much risk that they do not want to take with their neighbors. And that’s a shame as I remember my dad doing his annual and giving the neighbor a case of beer to come over and inspect his work and sign off on the annual. Thats gone in this current day culture. 

[ilovecornfields]

4 minutes ago, Will.iam said:

The problem now a days is the litigious nature of society. At my airpark there are no less than 5 AI’s and 30 a&p’s seems like damn near anyone with an airplane is an A&P. But none of them will put their signature on the books. As it’s not the pilot but their families and relatives that the a&p or ia fear will go after them and with all of them having another job or business that they own that is their primary income and accrued wealth it’s too much risk that they do not want to take with their neighbors. And that’s a shame as I remember my dad doing his annual and giving the neighbor a case of beer to come over and inspect his work and sign off on the annual. Thats gone in this current day culture. 

I can assure you cases of beer (and bottles of whiskey) are still regularly exchanged at the maintenance facilities I frequent.

And I agree about the litigious nature of our current society.

[EricJ]

54 minutes ago, Will.iam said:

The problem now a days is the litigious nature of society. At my airpark there are no less than 5 AI’s and 30 a&p’s seems like damn near anyone with an airplane is an A&P. But none of them will put their signature on the books. As it’s not the pilot but their families and relatives that the a&p or ia fear will go after them and with all of them having another job or business that they own that is their primary income and accrued wealth it’s too much risk that they do not want to take with their neighbors. And that’s a shame as I remember my dad doing his annual and giving the neighbor a case of beer to come over and inspect his work and sign off on the annual. Thats gone in this current day culture. 

There's been a big separation of the above- and underground economies in this area, especially in metropolitan regions.   Around here in order to fully practice as an authorized A&P at the local fields you generally need to 1) register with the airport authority and pay registration fees,  2) provide proof of insurance for large minimum coverages that includes the city as a named insured.   The fees and insurance run about $1500-$2k/year (last time I checked a while ago), which means unless you're actively making your living as an A&P it's going to be difficult to justify taking on that expense.   In addition to the registration and insurance requirements, in order to practice at Scottsdale you also owe the city a percentage of your gross receipts.   

At every local airport there are registered maintainers that meet these conditions, but there are also a ton who don't and essentially can't.  There are also a large number of owners who work on their own airplanes and get somebody to sign it off (or not, sometimes), often from among the underground maintainer variety who remain unregistered with the airport and sometimes (maybe usually) also uninsured.  I'll fix stuff for people that I know and the occassional Mooney driver who needs something, but I'm not going to advertise because there is genuine risk involved and I don't want to work on airplanes that often, anyway.   The (growing) underground part of the maintainer population often still works on a barter economy, since it's often people who don't do it for their full time occupation, anyway.   

So I think that case of beer thing still happens a lot, it's just a lot less visible than it used to be.   I do agree that it appears to be at least partly due to litigation, because the insurance costs are partly what drives people underground, even if they've never personally had an issue.   

 

[philiplane]

10 hours ago, JimB said:

The solution to most of the A&P shortages is going to be Apprenticeship programs at the airlines, in Part 145 shops and in small GA shops. The unlicensed will be supervised by the licensed A&P, earn a decent wage and can test for their A&P in 30 months. You can teach anyone how to open/close an aircraft for inspections, change tires/brakes, change oil etc. 

It works very well and is a win-win for everyone. 

Jim

Not at all, the only winners will be the cheapskates that get another generation of parts swappers at a discount price. Which is why we're in the crisis we're in now. 

Real A&P schools teach all the subject matter, including the theory behind electricity, structures, and avionics. If you want highly trained, highly productive technicians, they HAVE to come from a quality school, not from an apprentice program that provides cheap labor-in-training for shops that will do the bare minimum to get them a certificate.

You get NONE of the theoretical training, while working at the practical experience level as an apprentice in a shop. So while we would get more A&P's, they will be tire changers, parts swappers, and not the well rounded technicians needed to work on the latest airplanes with sophisticated electronics. 

Edited May 25 by philiplane

[MB65E]

6 hours ago, EricJ said:

There's been a big separation of the above- and underground economies in this area, especially in metropolitan regions.   Around here in order to fully practice as an authorized A&P at the local fields you generally need to 1) register with the airport authority and pay registration fees,  2) provide proof of insurance for large minimum coverages that includes the city as a named insured.   The fees and insurance run about $1500-$2k/year (last time I checked a while ago), which means unless you're actively making your living as an A&P it's going to be difficult to justify taking on that expense.   In addition to the registration and insurance requirements, in order to practice at Scottsdale you also owe the city a percentage of your gross receipts.   

At every local airport there are registered maintainers that meet these conditions, but there are also a ton who don't and essentially can't.  There are also a large number of owners who work on their own airplanes and get somebody to sign it off (or not, sometimes), often from among the underground maintainer variety who remain unregistered with the airport and sometimes (maybe usually) also uninsured.  I'll fix stuff for people that I know and the occassional Mooney driver who needs something, but I'm not going to advertise because there is genuine risk involved and I don't want to work on airplanes that often, anyway.   The (growing) underground part of the maintainer population often still works on a barter economy, since it's often people who don't do it for their full time occupation, anyway.   

So I think that case of beer thing still happens a lot, it's just a lot less visible than it used to be.   I do agree that it appears to be at least partly due to litigation, because the insurance costs are partly what drives people underground, even if they've never personally had an issue.   

 

Try minimum of $6k for insurance, (2-3 years ago) I looked around, even had conversation with some liability providers. I don’t have insurance but I’m also extremely picky on whose airplane I work on. I won’t work on anything I can’t afford on the personal side. On the professional side, sometimes the owners insurance will cover you as named insured. I’ve had it explained to me a few different ways. Direct damage, and damage that needs to be litigated. Example, An aircraft cleaner should have insurance, however their insurance premium is way less due to the fact that the damage caused is usually direct and will most likely no go to litigation. An IA’s insurance is much greater because it would most likely be litigated during the claims process. 
Parker can jump in maybe to explain in detail.

We do need to bring GA back. More people just need to make friends at airports instead of claims! While the $500 annuals are probably long gone, I would never want one! 

-Matt

[Pinecone]

16 hours ago, JimB said:

The solution to most of the A&P shortages is going to be Apprenticeship programs at the airlines, in Part 145 shops and in small GA shops. The unlicensed will be supervised by the licensed A&P, earn a decent wage and can test for their A&P in 30 months. You can teach anyone how to open/close an aircraft for inspections, change tires/brakes, change oil etc. 

It works very well and is a win-win for everyone. 

Jim

The apprenticeship at small GA shops has been going on for a long period of time.

But why work on airplanes, when you can make more working on cars?

[A64Pilot]

12 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Wow! Sharing my profits with the airport authority is crazy.  I have to carry slip and fall insurance naming the airport as an additional, and liability on completed operations plus fairly high hangar keepers liability limits.  I’ve had near $10,000,000 worth of airplanes in my shop at times, now with the value of a new Cirrus @$2M I need to raise the limits again.

Things sure are different south of the border.

It depends on where you are, twenty years ago one of my plans on Retiring from the Military was to set up an FBO in North Ga where there is a large State park, I had talked to them and they would lease me the building for $1 a year because they wanted their little airport to grow and bring in some business for the town, and sign a pretty lengthy lease.

I figured I could do some Annuals, sell fuel and maybe a little fight instructing, whatever until I got enough business to hire a few people. It wasn’t far from Atlanta and I believed as long as I did good work at a good price that I would draw business, and not living in Atlanta and paying those prices would mean I could both charge less, and make more profit.

I didn’t do it, it was easier to just work for the Army Test Activity as a contract pilot, but I think it would have worked out.

GA as in little inexpensive piston airplanes is dead, just not yet buried, it won’t be resurrected. Those days died when that economy died decades ago.

2 Mil for a simple single engine plastic airplane? You have that? Yeah, me either, not many do.

GA as in tens of millions of $$$ business jets is alive and well and is the future of GA, look at what’s selling

 

[A64Pilot]

4 hours ago, Pinecone said:

The apprenticeship at small GA shops has been going on for a long period of time.

But why work on airplanes, when you can make more working on cars?

Or tractors, even lawnmowers and that’s the problem, has been and it’s not going to change

[65MooneyPilot]

Jaylw314, LASAR in Prineville Oregon is looking for customers. I get emails from them a lot. Good luck 

I do envision a time when the only GA left will be experimental. IA not required and owners can do a lot of the work. 

[SKI]

14 hours ago, Will.iam said:

The problem now a days is the litigious nature of society. At my airpark there are no less than 5 AI’s and 30 a&p’s seems like damn near anyone with an airplane is an A&P. But none of them will put their signature on the books. As it’s not the pilot but their families and relatives that the a&p or ia fear will go after them and with all of them having another job or business that they own that is their primary income and accrued wealth it’s too much risk that they do not want to take with their neighbors. And that’s a shame as I remember my dad doing his annual and giving the neighbor a case of beer to come over and inspect his work and sign off on the annual. Thats gone in this current day culture. 

You are absolutely correct on that. If I was going down that A&P road to do some small scale work for friends I'm not sure how to mitigate your risk exposure, If you even could. It's really a shame our society has gone down that rabbit hole where everyone is sue happy. It's just another nail in the coffin of certified semi affordable GA. It will continue to die a slow death and the experimental market will continue to grow and that will be the future of semi affordable GA. The other side will be guys well off enough to afford a new $1M+ plane and just dropping it off, handing the keys away saying call me when it's done. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. That's just above the means of alot of people who would like to own and fly their own plane.

[Pinecone]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

GA as in little inexpensive piston airplanes is dead, just not yet buried, it won’t be resurrected. Those days died when that economy died decades ago.

2 Mil for a simple single engine plastic airplane? You have that? Yeah, me either, not many do.

GA as in tens of millions of $$$ business jets is alive and well and is the future of GA, look at what’s selling

 

Remember, in 20 years, some of those plastic airplanes will be 40 years old and if still flying, will be a lot cheaper.

And there are some very old airplanes still flying

[Lionudakis]

I'm an advocate for an owner maintained and modified catagory. I know many who as owners are better technicians than the licensed ones, as well as many who know better than to try to fix anything on their own. 

[JimB]

14 hours ago, philiplane said:

Not at all, the only winners will be the cheapskates that get another generation of parts swappers at a discount price. Which is why we're in the crisis we're in now. 

Real A&P schools teach all the subject matter, including the theory behind electricity, structures, and avionics. If you want highly trained, highly productive technicians, they HAVE to come from a quality school, not from an apprentice program that provides cheap labor-in-training for shops that will do the bare minimum to get them a certificate.

You get NONE of the theoretical training, while working at the practical experience level as an apprentice in a shop. So while we would get more A&P's, they will be tire changers, parts swappers, and not the well rounded technicians needed to work on the latest airplanes with sophisticated electronics. 

Well I am not going to get in to this with all of you but I'll just follow up and let you know for a fact that an Apprentice program does not produce just "parts swappers". If they are only working on old Cessnas in a small shop, I agree they aren't going to learn very much. But when they are working in a shop that is maintaining a fleet of modern GA aircraft, doing avionics installations, engine work, etc. as well as spending half of the 30 months working at an airline on large transport category aircraft, they are learning a lot more than you think.

And it doesn't matter if they get their A&P through an A&P school or from practical experience, you can't teach mechanical aptitude. Well maybe you can "theoretically"....