e-bikes anyone?

[aviatoreb]

Hi All,  I was just in Europe for work these last few weeks, and well, I really enjoyed the e-bikes ride share thing that's everywhere.  Much more fun and much cheaper than taxis.  And more legit for a 2 mi jaunt than walking which is yes good, but a bit much.

Anyway my wife and I had already been talking about e-bikes in part for the airplane - in part because often a rural destination is 10 mi or such from the town we want to go to and with luggage and all it just seems sometimes we lazy-out and either get a taxi or don't go because truth is my wife and I ride differently.  I think this europe trip tipped the scales and I am shopping.   We already  have bike-fridays which fold nicely into the airplane.  They can be electrified even by the company, or alternatively by a kit I would get.

But I hesitate still tremendously for one big reason.  Fire!  I am a bit creeped out about carrying the batteries on board flying.

On the other hand there are fire bags - I suppose I could put the batteries in a fire bag for flight.  Just in case.

If I had such a bike, I would likely ride to work more - I do love to ride but I find often I don't ride to work because i don't like to get to work all sweaty.  So I drive more often than I should.  AN e bike is less exercise than no electric assist, but it is still more active than driving.  And saves a ton of wear and tear on the car over time by using a fun and much cheaper mode of transport.

So here's the question - 

does anyone here fly with an e-bike (or e-scooter) and if so what do you do if anything to mitigate fire risk?  Or is it crazy to think of such a thing? Lithium style batteries seem to be the thing used these days but I wonder if older style NiMh batteries could be had for the application - heavier - expensive - but dramatically less fire risk, right?

Edited April 19, 2023 by aviatoreb

[Andy95W]

I predict that in 1.5 pages this topic will devolve into something about climate change.  Thanks a lot, Erik. 

[N201MKTurbo]

I have a One Wheel GT that I have taken on trips in the Mooney. It's pretty well made and I haven't heard about any catching on fire, but it does have a serious amount of energy stored in it and if it ever got angry, it could get very angry.

I like riding it. I use it mostly for getting around the airport. It is handy because you can throw it in the back seat or baggage compartment of an airplane. If you need to get an airplane on the far side of the ramp (over a mile away) you can scoot right over then throw the One Wheel in the back and taxi the plane back. Cannot do that with a truck or golf cart. 

The one thing I don't like about it is it is too heavy to carry very far, so taking it to the store isn't very convenient. I don't want to leave it laying around, because it will probably walk off. I could chain it to something, but the only way to chain it is with its carry handle, which would be easy to break, plus I have to carry the lock and cable or chain with me. That means I need to carry a backpack or something.

[Niko182]

I don't have a one wheel but have used them. That's probably the direction I'd go in. The most expensive one has a pretty good range as well.

[A64Pilot]

A few observations.

First battery fires are possible, but almost all of them occur from charging, usually from overcharging, or from being physically damaged. If you buy a pack that’s made from Li-po’s be sure they are either 186500’s or 21700’s. The last zero digit indicates they are metal encased cylinders, the first four digits indicate physical size as in mm’s, a 2170 is 21mm and 70mm tall for example. The metal encased cells are much harder to damage, usually takes serious hit to damage one, like being run over or something. Tesla uses 18650’s in their older cars and 2170’s in the newer ones for example. I bought a charger that’s adjustable and only charge my batteries to 80%, that pretty much guarantee’s no overcharge, and as a rule of thumb you double a Lipo’s life for every 10% less than full you cycle it, so by charging to 80% they will last four times longer.

If you charge it the day before putting it in the airplane you should be fine fire wise, or that’s my bet anyway.

Then be sure to buy a pack that’s CE certified and ROHS, and be sure they are class A cells, a few are made from classB, if they don’t advertise class A pass on them.

CE and ROHS are both European, sadly it seems they are leading the way on this not the US.

https://mcdcg.com/blog/rohsweee/ce-rohs-certification/

The pic of my Mooney has two URB-E’s in it, they were a California manufactured sit down scooter with a 25 mile range and 15 MPH speed, they barely fit, but two will fit in a Mooney.

I’ve been going through hell with my knees, two months ago was my third total knee replacement, with I hope the forth and final coming next year.

For rehab as I used to ride a lot I kitted my 30 yr old Specialized Rock Hopper front shock with a Bafang BBS-HD mid drive with a 52V 19.2 AH battery, that’s a Kilowatt / hour battery that gives the bike a 50 mile range and it easily exceeds 30 MPH, 40 actually, but you literally can’t pedal that fast with a 48 T chainring so it’s all motor at those speeds. The BBS-HD can and will pull 1500 watts, for reference if your very fit you can make 250 by pedaling as an average Joe. But it’s not fitting in any Mooney

Several in my neighborhood have bought stand up scooters and they are fine, way more available that an URB-E type.

This Enstrom if you look hard has scooters as an external load attached to his skids  the rest of us put them inside of the airplane

Oh, personally I don’t think I’d modify a bike friday myself, I certainly won’t my Lightspeed Ultimate, but the old Rock Hopper, sure.

If I were you I’d look hard at a stand up scooter, they seem to fold flat.

 

[mooniac15u]

I don't have any personal experience with One Wheel devices but if you're considering getting one it seems relevant to know that the CPSC has issued a safety warning about them.  The company has not agreed to a recall.

https://www.cpsc.gov/Newsroom/News-Releases/2023/CPSC-Warns-Consumers-to-Stop-Using-Onewheel-Self-Balancing-Electric-Skateboards-Due-to-Ejection-Hazard-At-Least-Four-Deaths-and-Multiple-Injuries-Reported

[A64Pilot]

URB-E as a company I don’t think is still making scooters. They were more expensive than the Chinese ones, built better but couldn’t compete price wise, may be able to find them used though.

https://youtu.be/As1t9Y8IiTg

[A64Pilot]

51 minutes ago, mooniac15u said:

I don't have any personal experience with One Wheel devices but if you're considering getting one it seems relevant to know that the CPSC has issued a safety warning about them.  The company has not agreed to a recall.

https://www.cpsc.gov/Newsroom/News-Releases/2023/CPSC-Warns-Consumers-to-Stop-Using-Onewheel-Self-Balancing-Electric-Skateboards-Due-to-Ejection-Hazard-At-Least-Four-Deaths-and-Multiple-Injuries-Reported

I haven’t ridden one either, but understand that if you do a set of “fangs” are a good investment, I believe they are wheels so that if it suddenly stops like from a dead battery rather than burying the nose and throwing you off, the fangs give you a chance.

https://land-surf.com/products/fangs™-3-0-front-bumper-replacement-for-xrs

[N201MKTurbo]

3 hours ago, mooniac15u said:

I don't have any personal experience with One Wheel devices but if you're considering getting one it seems relevant to know that the CPSC has issued a safety warning about them.  The company has not agreed to a recall.

https://www.cpsc.gov/Newsroom/News-Releases/2023/CPSC-Warns-Consumers-to-Stop-Using-Onewheel-Self-Balancing-Electric-Skateboards-Due-to-Ejection-Hazard-At-Least-Four-Deaths-and-Multiple-Injuries-Reported

If you don't try to set a land speed record on your One Wheel, you won't have a problem. If the battery dies, it just pushes back for you to slow down. If you are asking for more power than it has to give by going too fast or up a hill that is too steep, or both, it will push back telling you that you are at the limit. If you push forward while it's pushing back it will eventually shut down and you get a face plant. 

When they first advertised the GT they said it would go 30 or better and go 35 miles. their website now says the top speed is 20 and the range is 32. It doesn't have a speed limit, just a power limit. On a down slope you might get it up to 40. NOT ME!!! My normal speed is 12 mph. There is a big difference between a 10 MPH face plant and a 40 MPH face plant. 

I haven't done a face plant in about 10 years. I was skating down a dark hill at night going about 18 MPH or so and hit a stick that stopped me in my tracks. That got me a row of stitches on my chin.

Some say I should take it easy, I just turned 66 for heaven's sake.

[Pinecone]

FYI CE rating is a self certification by the manufacturer that the product meets the standards.  UL, TUV, CSA are 3rd party standards, where the manufacturer has to send in several samples to be tested by a group not associated with the manufacture.

I picked up a Jupiter Discovery X5 electric bike.  There is a long thread on them over on BT.   So far, I have just ridden it around my neighborhood and not tried putting it in and out of my plane.   Lighter is better, how light can you afford???? 

 

[Shadrach]

I’m saw this at Costco over the weekend thought it would fit in the Mooney easily. A bit of a pig at 48lbs and limited speed but compact.  https://www.costco.com/jetson-haze-electric-bike.product.4000025081.html

I see quite a few folks on full size E-bikes out in my rural part of the county. It’s a dead give when you see someone effortlessly pulling hills at 25 mph on fat tires. I am intrigued.

[Shadrach]

Just now, Pinecone said:

FYI CE rating is a self certification by the manufacturer that the product meets the standards.  UL, TUV, CSA are 3rd party standards, where the manufacturer has to send in several samples to be tested by a group not associated with the manufacture.

I picked up a Jupiter Discovery X5 electric bike.  There is a long thread on them over on BT.   So far, I have just ridden it around my neighborhood and not tried putting it in and out of my plane.   Lighter is better, how light can you afford???? 

 

CE is not really a self certification. You must work with a “designated representative” and the compliance costs are not trivial.

[Pinecone]

OK, but still not 3rd party tested.

[Shadrach]

2 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

OK, but still not 3rd party tested.

AFAIK, a 3rd party audit is included in our docs but that may be unique to our industry category (medical devices).

[Fly Boomer]

9 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

So here's the question - 

does anyone here fly with an e-bike (or e-scooter) and if so what do you do if anything to mitigate fire risk?  Or is it crazy to think of such a thing? Lithium style batteries seem to be the thing used these days but I wonder if older style NiMh batteries could be had for the application - heavier - expensive - but dramatically less fire risk, right?

Pretty long thread here in the not-too-distant past.  Some advocated for the One Wheel.

EDIT:  Once again, after going to the bottom of this thread, I see that the One Wheel has been extensively discussed.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Fly Boomer said:

Pretty long thread here in the not-too-distant past.  Some advocated for the One Wheel.

EDIT:  Once again, after going to the bottom of this thread, I see that the One Wheel has been extensively discussed.

I like the One Wheel and enjoy riding them. They are no where near as approachable or safe as a bike.

[N201MKTurbo]

1 minute ago, Shadrach said:

I like the One Wheel and enjoy riding them. They are no where near as approachable or safe as a bike.

I haven’t bled from the One Wheel in almost a year, (knocking on wood). They do have a learning curve. Just like airplanes….

[Will.iam]

I have 2 one wheels they are perfect for zipping over to the hanger or neighbors house. When i first got mine i went to my friends house and his kids all wanted to try it. I kept it on kid mode that kept it limited to 9 mph top speed and with in the hour the whole neighborhood of kids about 30 in all had all taken turns riding it. Everybody was surprised how quickly kids from 5 to 15 picked up on it. I couldn’t keep the thing charged up. Every adult that tried it could ride it but they didn’t pickup on it near as fast as the kids did. But having said all that my wife will not try it and i think a jupiter X5 would be the way to go for compactness vs cost and range and speed under control. Also when the X5 runs out of juice you can still pedal it it’s just a heavy bicycle but it’s still faster than walking  but run a one wheel out of juice and it’s a pain to carry even a few dozen feet and you are definitely walking slower than if you didn’t have to carry the one wheel. 

[aviatoreb]

17 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

A few observations.

First battery fires are possible, but almost all of them occur from charging, usually from overcharging, or from being physically damaged. If you buy a pack that’s made from Li-po’s be sure they are either 186500’s or 21700’s. The last zero digit indicates they are metal encased cylinders, the first four digits indicate physical size as in mm’s, a 2170 is 21mm and 70mm tall for example. The metal encased cells are much harder to damage, usually takes serious hit to damage one, like being run over or something. Tesla uses 18650’s in their older cars and 2170’s in the newer ones for example. I bought a charger that’s adjustable and only charge my batteries to 80%, that pretty much guarantee’s no overcharge, and as a rule of thumb you double a Lipo’s life for every 10% less than full you cycle it, so by charging to 80% they will last four times longer.

If you charge it the day before putting it in the airplane you should be fine fire wise, or that’s my bet anyway.

Then be sure to buy a pack that’s CE certified and ROHS, and be sure they are class A cells, a few are made from classB, if they don’t advertise class A pass on them.

CE and ROHS are both European, sadly it seems they are leading the way on this not the US.

https://mcdcg.com/blog/rohsweee/ce-rohs-certification/

The pic of my Mooney has two URB-E’s in it, they were a California manufactured sit down scooter with a 25 mile range and 15 MPH speed, they barely fit, but two will fit in a Mooney.

I’ve been going through hell with my knees, two months ago was my third total knee replacement, with I hope the forth and final coming next year.

For rehab as I used to ride a lot I kitted my 30 yr old Specialized Rock Hopper front shock with a Bafang BBS-HD mid drive with a 52V 19.2 AH battery, that’s a Kilowatt / hour battery that gives the bike a 50 mile range and it easily exceeds 30 MPH, 40 actually, but you literally can’t pedal that fast with a 48 T chainring so it’s all motor at those speeds. The BBS-HD can and will pull 1500 watts, for reference if your very fit you can make 250 by pedaling as an average Joe. But it’s not fitting in any Mooney

Several in my neighborhood have bought stand up scooters and they are fine, way more available that an URB-E type.

This Enstrom if you look hard has scooters as an external load attached to his skids  the rest of us put them inside of the airplane

Oh, personally I don’t think I’d modify a bike friday myself, I certainly won’t my Lightspeed Ultimate, but the old Rock Hopper, sure.

If I were you I’d look hard at a stand up scooter, they seem to fold flat.

 

Thanks for those details.

I have read extensively about that bafang mid-drive setup.  Very interesting!

But that is orthogonal to my question which is more so about fire risk and you did speak to that very helpfully.  Thank you.

Others spoke about one wheel which is interesting but I am not interested - but still it does speak to others just not worrying about fire risk of carrying large lipo batteries on board.

The reason I am leaning to electrifying our bike Friday's is that we already have them, and they are already excellent for airplane use and they ride well, but also bike Friday the company already did the leg work of selecting safer batteries and also they make a relatively clean conversion.

On my road bike by the way - I ride with a power meter - I have for years.  Ill say 250w is pretty modest cruise speed.  350w is pretty good high speed cruise.  400w is go fast but cant keep that going for long cruise.  About 10 years ago I was good at time trials and my best 10 miler I did 406 watts avg for the tt,  just over 20 min. - My son makes amazing bursts of sprint all out and can touch 1750watts for instantaneous top watts.

[A64Pilot]

I’d think possibly your meter may be optimistic.

This is what 700W looks like for an Olympic sprinter, remember the Bafang BBS-HD can pull 1500 for an extended interval, if you have a battery that can handle that.

 

[A64Pilot]

On 4/19/2023 at 8:44 PM, Shadrach said:

I’m saw this at Costco over the weekend thought it would fit in the Mooney easily. A bit of a pig at 48lbs and limited speed but compact.  https://www.costco.com/jetson-haze-electric-bike.product.4000025081.html

I see quite a few folks on full size E-bikes out in my rural part of the county. It’s a dead give when you see someone effortlessly pulling hills at 25 mph on fat tires. I am intrigued.

They take an ordinary person and turn them into Greg Lemond or Eddy Merckx, really I can easily maintain a 20+ mph average on my old mountain bike. 

Two types, one is a torque sensor that actually measures the amount of power you make and adds power, then there are cadence sensors that so long as the pedals are moving power is added, you don’t have to even catch up with the bike just spin the pedals, but in the Bafang at least there are 9 different power levels so if you want you can work hard or not. The Bafang is programmable but I’ve not yet, group of old men I ride with only want to go 12 mph or so and my bike is faster than that even in its lowest speed so I stop pedaling a lot, so I do need to reprogram it to slow it down.

There are issues with maintaining a proper chain line with the mid drive kits, out of the box my chain line was too far out so only the top three gears were usable, so I bought a $100 Luna Cycle chain ring that moved it too close, it hit the chain stay, so I had to shim it out by 5mm with bottom bracket shims, but now I can use the whole cassette.

It cost me about $1500 all in as a guess, the 1000W kit is about $300 less and 3 lbs less, more actually as you don’t need as big a battery, which could save $$ too as well as weight.

I believe my kit weighs 25 lbs all by itself, half that in the battery, so I bet my bike is pushing 50 lbs. Rock Hoppers weren’t particularly light.

You can buy a good e-bike for what a good kit costs, but then your very much speed and power limited and most of the things just aren’t for real cyclists, they are more like old Huffy’s and Schwinn’s etc.

[Shadrach]

18 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

They take an ordinary person and turn them into Greg Lemond or Eddy Merckx, really I can easily maintain a 20+ mph average on my old mountain bike. 

Two types, one is a torque sensor that actually measures the amount of power you make and adds power, then there are cadence sensors that so long as the pedals are moving power is added, you don’t have to even catch up with the bike just spin the pedals, but in the Bafang at least there are 9 different power levels so if you want you can work hard or not. The Bafang is programmable but I’ve not yet, group of old men I ride with only want to go 12 mph or so and my bike is faster than that even in its lowest speed so I stop pedaling a lot, so I do need to reprogram it to slow it down.

There are issues with maintaining a proper chain line with the mid drive kits, out of the box my chain line was too far out so only the top three gears were usable, so I bought a $100 Luna Cycle chain ring that moved it too close, it hit the chain stay, so I had to shim it out by 5mm with bottom bracket shims, but now I can use the whole cassette.

It cost me about $1500 all in as a guess, the 1000W kit is about $300 less and 3 lbs less, more actually as you don’t need as big a battery, which could save $$ too as well as weight.

I believe my kit weighs 25 lbs all by itself, half that in the battery, so I bet my bike is pushing 50 lbs. Rock Hoppers weren’t particularly light.

You can buy a good e-bike for what a good kit costs, but then your very much speed and power limited and most of the things just aren’t for real cyclists, they are more like old Huffy’s and Schwinn’s etc.

Good info. I’ve considered converting my old Klein MTB to an ebike. On the up side the frame is light (2.8lbs) but I would prefer a fully rigid steel frame for the road. 

[A64Pilot]

For the price, and the fact it will fit in the airplane, that bike you linked to looks pretty good to me, awfully good, if I didn’t already have the URB-E’s I’d buy one.

It cost me over twice that to convert my mountain bike and it’s not fitting in the Mooney, not even if I took the wheels off etc.

Only thing I’d add about putting a bike into an airplane, I’d either remove and degrease and then wax the chain, or put the bike into some kind of bag.

As an old Roadie, I’d wax the chain, it’s a better lube than oil anyway and it’s clean

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

I’d think possibly your meter may be optimistic.

This is what 700W looks like for an Olympic sprinter, remember the Bafang BBS-HD can pull 1500 for an extended interval, if you have a battery that can handle that.

 

I think those legs are Robert Foreston.  He is called Quadzilla - he is some kind of genetic freak!  He is considered a superb olympic level athlete in sprints - but he is not the best in the world despite the biggest legs in the world.

https://twitter.com/RFoerstemann/status/928591882447400960/photo/1

 

No truly - my son's watts in an instantaneous spring - 5s at 1700+ watts is about 18Watt/kg - its good but by no means world class.  Its not watts but watts/kg that count for climbers and watts/Cda for time trialists.

Here is a table that is considered excellent in the watts/kg scale.  18W/kg is a spring in the transition between cat 2 and cat 1 but below domestic pro and well below world class.  I read once that I forgot his name but the Olympic Champion in match sprint (shortest spring event) was 2500 watts instantaneous as a 100kg rider.  So 25 Watt/kg to be olympic champ.  But on the other end of the time scale - FT means 1 hour.  They say it takes 6.4-6.6 watts/kg to win the Tour de France.

Your 700 watts toaster test of 1 min....  Suppose its a heavy rider like 90KG then that's 7.7watts/kg is Cat 3 for 1 min.  Notice the power levels at 1 min are significantly lower than they are for 5sec.  Even lil ol me - I was doing 400 watts for 20 minutes time trial a few years ago.  But I am 100kg (97 then) and so its not  so remarkable.

Edited April 22, 2023 by aviatoreb

[A64Pilot]

I think we are talking different cyclist, I’m talking about what I think the average Mooneyspace person is, which I think is an older US male, who as they are Americans are probably over weight as well as being older. I doubt there are many Cat 2 or higher cyclist, and surely those that are wouldn’t be caught dead on an E-bike.

Not Cat 2 racers, not even close, average US person may have ridden a bicycle as a kid, but hasn’t as an adult, much less participated in Time Trials, probably doesn’t even know what one is.

Those people are I believe doing good to maintain 250 W.

1 HP is 748 W from memory so producing 1/3 of the power of a horse from your legs ain’t bad at all for an older overweight beginning cyclist in my opinion.

If it wasn’t for my age and infirmities with the knees, I wouldn’t consider an E bike myself, I doubt any serious cyclist would, even has been ones.

Hell, I’ve been looking at lightweight folding wheel chairs as I can only walk about 100 yds and stand for about 10 min. No way could I go to Sun-N-Fun or Disney etc. without one.

So I will ride an E-bike for the range of motion for my knees, as one is just a temporary Anti-biotic spacer, 20 miles or so on a E-bike I think isn’t bad, where I used to do Century’s.

I’m putting my Lightspeed Ultimate back together, four years ago my Son got run over by a hit and run driver on it, and sadly it’s become obvious that there is no way I can ride with the Lightspeed handle bar stem, even with it raised up. At my age no way can I get a flat back or even close. I’m afraid I’ll either hang it on a wall or put one of those God awful tall stems on it, but I certainly won’t put an electric kit on it.   

But I might my Ran’s if I can figure out how to haul it around, I don’t have a truck anymore and it’s eight and a half feet long, and after my Son getting run over, I don’t ride roads anymore. I think the Screamer would be an excellent E conversion.