During my prepurchase inspection the mechanic squawked...

[steingar]

Among other things the bladders, said they were at the end of their service life.  Is this a thing?

[ArtVandelay]

Are they leaking?

Check the documentation, this should be spelled out in the continuing of airworthiness I would think.

[Hank]

Or ask how he made that determination. 

[Utah20Gflyer]

Under part 91 I would assume the service life is right up until they leak, So I would inquire as to how this determination was made.   If they are in fact leaking replacement seems justified. 

[Marauder]

Among other things the bladders, said they were at the end of their service life.  Is this a thing?

Call Grigg’s and ask if you can’t find the STC documentation.

Telephone: (570) 836-5757


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[steingar]

The mechanic said they were at the end of their service life at 25 years old (maybe even a bit older).  There is nothing whatsoever wrong with them other than they're old.  I figured someone here could address this.

I think my buyer has bailed, so back up for sale she goes.  Getting a deposit next time.

[jetdriven]

26 minutes ago, steingar said:

The mechanic said they were at the end of their service life at 25 years old (maybe even a bit older).  There is nothing whatsoever wrong with them other than they're old.  I figured someone here could address this.

I think my buyer has bailed, so back up for sale she goes.  Getting a deposit next time.

Always take a deposit and get a signed contract.  For both the buyer and the sellers benefit. 
there is no set service life for bladders.  Mine is a Griggs right now getting the add on kit. The original bladders were installed in 1991. 

[RoundTwo]

1 hour ago, steingar said:

Among other things the bladders, said they were at the end of their service life.  Is this a thing?

Maybe he was still pissed off about losing to Georgia. 

[PT20J]

I think the mechanic was just letting you know that they are old. How long they last is variable. It's not an airworthiness issue unless they leak. It's just a negotiating point. 

 

[A64Pilot]

You can often tell when bladders are done, especially the top cracks.

‘I’m not saying yours are bad, but I’ve seen some that you could tell it’s not going to be long.

It’s sort of like an old dry rotted tire, even if it had plenty of tread you can tell the tire had reached end of life.

Getting a deposit and a signed contract won’t mean anything, you have to give the money back, contract surely stipulates the aircraft has to pass inspection and I’ve not seen that well defined. I’ve seen airworthy aircraft I wouldn’t buy, nothing specific, but the whole thing was one minor problem after the other.

‘Being tied down, especially in a sunny climate kills bladders, plus you should keep them full if you want them to last as long as possible.

[47U]

4 hours ago, steingar said:

Among other things the bladders, said they were at the end of their service life.

Agreeing with A64…

Perhaps more so than integral tanks, to keep bladders healthy, I think keeping a generous amount of fuel in bladder tanks is important to keep them from drying out.   

Not sure if it relates, but on the -135 the forward body, aft body, and upper deck tanks were bladders.  We rarely had issues with the forward and aft body, they regularly carried fuel in them.  But if the airplane was scheduled for alert, it was fueled to the MTOW.  That put fuel in the upper deck tank and then let it sit with the alert fuel load for a minimum of three days.  It was not uncommon for the upper deck to leak.  That was at Mather and Beale, both hot summer climates.

The pre purchase protects the buyer… so I can’t fault the A&P.  They’re paid to report their findings (opinion, as it may be).  Perhaps a 1 or 2 year warranty against bladder leaks for a percentage of the repairs would give buyers more confidence (just thinking out loud…).  Remember, if a bladder leaks, the wing bay is considered an enclosed area and you won’t be able to (legally) put fuel in that tank until it’s repaired.  

Even so, wouldn’t replacing a leaking bladder in an airplane that’s been converted be a lot cheaper than doing the whole conversion? 

[A64Pilot]

Most bladders like Cessna, Beech can be repaired, I assume Mooney’s too, rebuilt may be a better term as they are very close to new as far as service life and usually much cheaper than new. Downside is just like overhauling an engine, more downtime waiting until it gets repaired and shipped back.

My personal opinion is I’d rather be dealing with leaking bladders than a leaking wet wing.

Heat I think is an enemy, you keep them full to keep the top cool, and heat is why tieing down ages them prematurely.

Bladders have gone to pot in ten to fifteen years or lasted fifty or more years, depending on how they are treated.

I understand some hangar fees are just untenable, but if you live in an area where you can get one for a realistic amount of money I promise you over the years it will pay for itself, if it’s not a ridiculous price.

I think we are in the very beginnings of a buyers market, where the last couple of years were sellers markets. So with increased inventory buyers are going to be more picky.

[cliffy]

Heat from the sun is the enemy of both sealed tanks and bladder tanks!!!!!!

Get them out of the sun.

[Rusty Pilot]

23 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Always take a deposit and get a signed contract.  For both the buyer and the sellers benefit. 
there is no set service life for bladders.  Mine is a Griggs right now getting the add on kit. The original bladders were installed in 1991. 

Byron does the add on get you over 64 gallon capacity?  How do you like the bladders versus reseal?

[jetdriven]

4 minutes ago, Rusty Pilot said:

Byron does the add on get you over 64 gallon capacity?  How do you like the bladders versus reseal?

it takes it from 54 to 64.  believe it or not there have been lots of times a 64 gallon plane would skip a fuel stop, or make it one stop instead of two.  now with random 8$ gas, finally were doing it.

this plane came with them, and they've never been worked on.  i havent had to work on anyone else's either. but about 20% of mooneys we work on have fuel leaks.

 

[jaylw314]

20 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Getting a deposit and a signed contract won’t mean anything, you have to give the money back, contract surely stipulates the aircraft has to pass inspection and I’ve not seen that well defined. I’ve seen airworthy aircraft I wouldn’t buy, nothing specific, but the whole thing was one minor problem after the other.

You have to give a deposit back, but you can ask (or offer) to make some amount of it a non-refundable 'earnest money' amount like you do when buying a house.

[1980Mooney]

39 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

You have to give a deposit back, but you can ask (or offer) to make some amount of it a non-refundable 'earnest money' amount like you do when buying a house.

Earnest money is fully refundable under certain conditions. A prospective buyer conducts a home inspection by a third party during the “option period”. If the inspection turns up more problems and cost than anticipated  the prospective buyer can back out of the purchase and the earnest money is fully returned to the prospective buyer.  

Your scenario would be the same - in this case the inspection by a third party turned up more issues and projected cost than the prospective buyer anticipated. 

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, 1980Mooney said:

Earnest money is fully refundable under certain conditions. A prospective buyer conducts a home inspection by a third party during the “option period”. If the inspection turns up more problems and cost than anticipated  the prospective buyer can back out of the purchase and the earnest money is fully returned to the prospective buyer.  

Your scenario would be the same - in this case the inspection by a third party turned up more issues and projected cost than the prospective buyer anticipated. 

Usually aircraft agreements lets the seller keep earnest money if the buyer backs out due to issues that are not determined to be “airworthiness” by the inspector.  All the little things are on the buyer.  Airworthiness issues on the seller. 
 

In the OP’s case, it wasn’t airworthiness, just older bladders.  The buyer could have known that from logbooks.  If there had been earnest money, I’d have expected the seller to keep it.

[jetdriven]

I can see the need for a contract to protect both parties. Ive had buyers all lined up for a prebuy here, set aside the time, and shop space for it, and have the seller ghost them because someone else offered 500$ more, or offered to skip the prebuy altogether.  I had one broker insist we do the prebuy there in NY state at his shop and he ghosted us 5 days before.  We nevr did get the last two years of logs or current photos. The more I asked the broker, the quieter he got. I think the plane was likely not in as stated condition. He should have been upfront about it.

For the seller, there are some things they need too. Like an assurance the aircraft expenses for transport, the pilot services, and the work authorized by the buyer is paid by the buyer. That no loggab le work or anything thats expensive is done without either seller having title or the owner specifically authorizes it.  And take a big enough deposit to buy down that risk.  Also so the buyer doesnt ghost the seller who took the time to arrange the aircraft to be inspected.

The last one we had, we got by without a contract. But both the buyer and seller were from here and I was the mediator. I assured both parties most of what I wrote above, they both trusted each other and me and it went fine, but I'd rather they had a good contract between them, in case something went sideways.

[1980Mooney]

18 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Usually aircraft agreements lets the seller keep earnest money if the buyer backs out due to issues that are not determined to be “airworthiness” by the inspector.  All the little things are on the buyer.  Airworthiness issues on the seller. 
 

In the OP’s case, it wasn’t airworthiness, just older bladders.  The buyer could have known that from logbooks.  If there had been earnest money, I’d have expected the seller to keep it.

AOPA has a sample Aircraft Purchase Agreement online. It has multiple options on the language. One way is to have the Seller pay for discrepancies related to airworthiness.  The alternate language states Seller is to pay for all discrepancies.  Otherwise the Seller can back out and escrow is returned.  It even has language that the Seller will reimburse Buyer for the cost of the pre purchase inspection if the Seller refuses to make repairs.

The real point is what is a fair agreement.  Personally I think there should be a “Collar” or limit on the cost to repair identified discrepancies. Every plane will have some issues. But especially with someone new to aircraft ownership, there should be a reasonable limit of things that turn up in the inspection.

https://www.aopa.org/-/media/Files/PPS/AOPA-Legal-Services-Plan--Sample-Aircraft-PurchaseSales-Agreement2018-01.pdf

“[ Upon completion of this inspection, Buyer shall present to the Seller any list of discrepancies compiled. The Seller shall have ________ (______) business days to review the list and to notify the Buyer of Seller's decision: (a) to pay to have the [discrepancies] [discrepancies affecting the airworthiness of the Aircraft] repaired at Seller's expense and to complete the sale; or (b) to decline to pay the costs of repairs and to terminate the Agreement. If Seller declines to pay the cost of repairs, Seller shall refund, or have refunded, the Buyer's deposit and shall reimburse the Buyer for the cost of the pre-purchase inspection].”

[Pinecone]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

I can see the need for a contract to protect both parties. Ive had buyers all lined up for a prebuy here, set aside the time, and shop space for it, and have the seller ghost them because someone else offered 500$ more, or offered to skip the prebuy altogether.  I had one broker insist we do the prebuy there in NY state at his shop and he ghosted us 5 days before.  We nevr did get the last two years of logs or current photos. The more I asked the broker, the quieter he got. I think the plane was likely not in as stated condition. He should have been upfront about it.

For the seller, there are some things they need too. Like an assurance the aircraft expenses for transport, the pilot services, and the work authorized by the buyer is paid by the buyer. That no loggab le work or anything thats expensive is done without either seller having title or the owner specifically authorizes it.  And take a big enough deposit to buy down that risk.  Also so the buyer doesnt ghost the seller who took the time to arrange the aircraft to be inspected.

The last one we had, we got by without a contract. But both the buyer and seller were from here and I was the mediator. I assured both parties most of what I wrote above, they both trusted each other and me and it went fine, but I'd rather they had a good contract between them, in case something went sideways.

Hmm, those sound familiar.

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

Earnest money is fully refundable under certain conditions. A prospective buyer conducts a home inspection by a third party during the “option period”. If the inspection turns up more problems and cost than anticipated  the prospective buyer can back out of the purchase and the earnest money is fully returned to the prospective buyer.  

Your scenario would be the same - in this case the inspection by a third party turned up more issues and projected cost than the prospective buyer anticipated. 

True, there's a fair amount of wiggle room.  The point is more to demonstrate to the seller that you're not just 'kicking the tires' by putting down a deposit that's fully refundable for almost ANY reason, rather than having an earnest money that is a rock solid guarantee.  Even if the buyer can recover the earnest money with some degree of hassle, that's a demonstration of a higher level of commitment.

Edited January 5, 2023 by jaylw314

[1980Mooney]

3 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

True, there's a fair amount of wiggle room, but the point is more to demonstrate to the seller that you're not just 'kicking the tires' by putting down a deposit that's fully refundable for almost ANY reason.

The fact that a prospective buyer is paying an A&P a material amount of cash to preform an inspection would seem to demonstrate sincere interest. Have you or do you know anybody that goes out and spends $500-1,000 cash apiece to just “kick the tires” on airplanes that are for sale?

[steingar]

49 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

The fact that a prospective buyer is paying an A&P a material amount of cash to preform an inspection would seem to demonstrate sincere interest. Have you or do you know anybody that goes out and spends $500-1,000 cash apiece to just “kick the tires” on airplanes that are for sale?

My buyer did just that, though the mechanic gave a rather negative report, I think he thought I was trying to pull a fast one.  I am a bit insulted, as I try hard to be up front about whatever squawks I know, and the buyer will hear how a mechanic squawked the bladders. I don't want anyone to feel cheated ever.  

I suspect there is something more going on with my buyer, as he doesn't answer his phone and the messages are full.  He might have been deployed (military contractor) or something else could have happened.  I don't think he just "walked away".  All that said, I think I will get a deposit next time.  And I agree, airworthiness stuff is on me, other stuff on the buyer.  I'll happily take an airworthiness squawk off the asking price.

 

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, 1980Mooney said:

The fact that a prospective buyer is paying an A&P a material amount of cash to preform an inspection would seem to demonstrate sincere interest. Have you or do you know anybody that goes out and spends $500-1,000 cash apiece to just “kick the tires” on airplanes that are for sale?

At that point, the buyer hasn't paid for the pre-inspection yet, and can easily get the deposit back, so yes.  That would be very annoying if the seller just made arrangements to have the plane moved to the shop.