Advice on pre-buy misses

[iamit]

So, I guess it's part of the cost of learning (first time owner): the pre-buy report I got mentioned a few "squaks" that were noted as $200-$500 fixes (minor hangar rash on aileron trailing edged, and a minor fuel seepage).

However when running the annual now, these two items are basically airworthiness issues, and can't just be fixed with $200-$500 (control surfaces can't be fixed or stop-drilled - need either reskinning, or replacing, fuel seepage isn't something you can seal from the outside and monitor - need to drain tanks, get in there and properly seal). 

What's the responsibility of the A&P who performed the pre-buy? Should I be going to them to cover the cost of fixes since these are airworthiness items that should have been noted as such in the pre-buy? Just suck it up and check it off as the cost of learning airplane ownership?

[TheAv8r]

That sucks, I'm sorry you're in that position. 

The squawks were noted, it sounds like just a difference of opinion on the severity. The A&P who did the pre-buy thought these were minor and did not need correcting for the aircraft to be airworthy. The A&P IA who's doing your annual disagrees. Unfortunately, there's really no recourse to go back to the A&P who did the prebuy and say he needs to pay to fix it - he did tell you about them. At this point, you could either get another IA's opinion, or go through the repairs.

[MMsuper21]

There are generally 2 camps, practical A&P's and the ones that have unrealistic expectations from 50 year old planes. 

Depending on your "hanger rash" and fuel seepage it might be acceptable to apply a practical fix or not. There are manuals that spell out what is and what isn't acceptable but a lot is up for interpretation. 

I ran into guys that wanted reskin because of a cosmetic dent while another shop just popped the dent out and verified integrity. Get another A&P's opinion. 

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, iamit said:

So, I guess it's part of the cost of learning (first time owner): the pre-buy report I got mentioned a few "squaks" that were noted as $200-$500 fixes (minor hangar rash on aileron trailing edged, and a minor fuel seepage).

However when running the annual now, these two items are basically airworthiness issues, and can't just be fixed with $200-$500 (control surfaces can't be fixed or stop-drilled - need either reskinning, or replacing, fuel seepage isn't something you can seal from the outside and monitor - need to drain tanks, get in there and properly seal). 

What's the responsibility of the A&P who performed the pre-buy? Should I be going to them to cover the cost of fixes since these are airworthiness items that should have been noted as such in the pre-buy? Just suck it up and check it off as the cost of learning airplane ownership?

The maintenance manual clearly outlines what is acceptable as a fuel seep.  Running leaks are never acceptable. 

There is no guidance that I could find in the MM for or prohibiting the stop drilling cracks on control surfaces.   Is this hangar rash or a fatigue crack?  When it comes to stop drilling cracks, I think most IAs consider the cause of the crack, the affect on the structure and the likelihood that the crack continues after stop drilling. Has your mechanic explain to you why he believes that the stop drilling of the crack is unairworthy?

[iamit]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

The maintenance manual clearly outlines what is acceptable as a fuel seep.  Running leaks are never acceptable. 

There is no guidance that I could find in the MM for or prohibiting the stop drilling cracks on control surfaces.   Is this hangar rash or a fatigue crack.  When it comes to stop drilling cracks, I think most IAs consider the cause of the crack, the affect on the structure and the likelihood that the crack continues after stop drilling. Has your mechanic explain to you why he believes that the stop drilling of the crack is unairworthy?

Yes - the A&P running the annual explained that first the fuel leak is a leak - cleaning the surfaces and letting the plane sit for a day clearly showed multiple areas where fuel was leaking out. Albeit not dripping to the ground - but nevertheless clearly coming out and since it was multiple locations on both sides he deemed it an airworthiness issue.

As far as the cracks - he stated that control surface repairs are not allowed based on the regulations, and Mooney doesn't have any technical guidance that allow for stop drilling or fixes - hence airworthiness issues unless replaced or reskinned.

[Cruiser]

Is the A&P/IA doing the annual working for a Mooney Service Center?
IF not, there are two good options. 
One - call Saavy Maintenance and ask for help. (it is a pay for service)

Two - call a well known MSC and ask for guidance on your issues. It is certain a busy, well established service center has run across these issues and knows how to deal with them. 

 

Note: I believe the FAA considers stop drilling to be a temporary repair that must be followed up with a permanent fix as soon as possible. 

 

[mooniac15u]

26 minutes ago, iamit said:

Yes - the A&P running the annual explained that first the fuel leak is a leak - cleaning the surfaces and letting the plane sit for a day clearly showed multiple areas where fuel was leaking out. Albeit not dripping to the ground - but nevertheless clearly coming out and since it was multiple locations on both sides he deemed it an airworthiness issue.

As far as the cracks - he stated that control surface repairs are not allowed based on the regulations, and Mooney doesn't have any technical guidance that allow for stop drilling or fixes - hence airworthiness issues unless replaced or reskinned.

The maintenance manual shows how to classify intensity of fuel leaks and tells you which do and do not constitute a flight hazard.  Is your A&P referring to the manual when making these decisions?

[iamit]

50 minutes ago, mooniac15u said:

The maintenance manual shows how to classify intensity of fuel leaks and tells you which do and do not constitute a flight hazard.  Is your A&P referring to the manual when making these decisions?

Good call - found the manual and verifying (I've seen the seeps/leaks myself, seems around classification (2) at least from the outside surfaces - will need to verify in the more internal surfaces.

[DV8Pilot]

No recourse with the A&P who did the pre-purchase evaluation.

 

Two options with your current A&P IA:

1. Complete their airworthiness items as they identified and get your annual sign off.

2. Tell them to roll it out of their shop with a logbook entry along the lines of “Annual inspection not completed. List of discrepancies provided.”; or if they have completed the inspection: “Annual inspection completed. List of discrepancies provided.” If it’s the later you can hire an A&P to address the discrepancies as provided by the IA and make a separate logbook entry documenting the work done.

[N201MKTurbo]

The IA is not responsible for the airworthiness of the aircraft. Their only responsibility is doing a thorough inspection. The airworthiness is the responsibility of the owner. An IA cannot ground an airplane. Only the FAA can do that. 
 

I have found the FAA very easy to deal with to get a ferry permit to fly it to a different shop. That is one item specifically called out on the form for a ferry permit.

[PT20J]

Sounds like the person doing the inspection caught the items. Repair estimates vary widely depending on who does the work. You classified the fuel leak as a seep which according to the Mooney Service and Maintenance Manual is not an airworthiness item. Cost to repair could be small or large depending on a lot of factors beyond the scope of a pre-purchase inspection. 

You characterized the aileron as having minor trailing edge damage. Even if it has to be replaced, used ailerons can be had for a few hundred dollars. 

I would say that the pre-purchase inspector correctly identified the issues but perhaps underestimated the cost to rectify and it sounds like your current IA isn’t very familiar with Mooneys. Finding a fair and capable mechanic you trust and can work with is one of the more difficult but crucial factors to successful ownership in my experience. 

Since you are new to all this, you might find SavvyMx a worthwhile investment https://www.savvyaviation.com

Skip

[carusoam]

Welcome to the world of aviation…

1) Did you notice that there is no standard for a ‘pre-buy’…?

2) What gets covered in the pre-buy depends on the person asking for it…

3) The person that did the pre-buy, pointed out the issues you are asking about…

4) When he gave you prices to fix them… did you ask if he could fix them for you?

5) What you do with the information is up to you…

Often, when you write a purchase agreement… you capture things about the pre-buy… and what happens when AW issues are encountered… and define how the pre-buy comes to an end…

Like who fixes what, and who pays for it…

6) Often people get real quotes for fixing stuff, before they commit to buying the old machine…

7) Kind of a know before you go…. Kind of thing…

8) looks like You forgot to post pics of what you are talking about…

9) One way to get help around here… describe things as accurately as you can… or post pics…

10) Real challenges come with things the mechanic missed… didn’t see… didn’t know where to look…

 

If you had a conversation with your mechanic…

1) What procedures are you going to follow for the pre-buy…?

2) What things often get missed…?

3) What insurance does he have to cover things that got missed or damaged…?

4) How do we handle things that can get found down the road…?   (Check your warranty on the back of the pre-buy brochure…. )

 

Know that there are a bazillion mechanics out there…

1) The mechanic’s opinion that matters the most… is the one signing off your annual…

2) If your plane has dents and dings in it… you want to know your mechanic’s opinion if it is an AW issue or not…

3) If he finds it’s an AW issue… expect to fix it, or find a different mechanic…

4) are you saying the pre-buy mechanic doesn’t know your regular mechanic?

 

You didn’t mention if the pre-buy was done by a Mooney Mechanic…

1) The best chance of getting a good pre-buy… is getting one by a guy who knows where to look….

2) Going to the best mechanic… know that things get missed by him as well…

3) Proper repairs of a Mooney… come from the maintenance manual…   A Mooney mechanic is familiar with that…

 

If the guy that gave you bad numbers on the cost to fix things…

1) You can ask him to honor that price and have him fix them…

2) You will quickly find that you weren’t familiar with the things he is not familiar with either….

 

As PIC of ownership issues…

1) Hang out here often…

2) Read up on all the things that can cost a mint…

3) Learn from those that have gone before you…

4) Be happy your first annual hasn’t uncovered inter granular corrosion…. that your pre-buy missed…

5) you have plenty of reasons to be disappointed…

6) don’t waste time and effort being disappointed…

7) There is soooo much to focus on to keep from being disappointed again…

8) See if you can find the consumer protection agency for buying planes….

9) The amount of effort that goes into pre-buys often is related to the cost of the machine…

Some are more serious than others… some cost more than an annual inspection….

Some don’t get pre-buys… and risk management is the discussion that follows…

 

Lets start with pics…

Some fuel leaks are easy to fix… and often don’t require draining tanks… plenty of MSers can point you in the right direction…

Some hangar rash can be made better… reskinning is a common way to fix those things properly… plenty of MSers can point you in the right direction…

For research… somebody had a similar challenge… he publicly went about a solution in an interesting way… the thread was titled something like F… the FAA….  The FAA wasn’t very impressed with his approach either 

Don’t fight the Fed! - Marty Zweig

 

Get to the pics…  let us know if you need a hand posting…

Stay focused….

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic… the first year of ownership is the toughest… sooooo much to learn…

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

[ArtVandelay]

Can you post pictures of the hangar rash?

Control surfaces can be repaired, so I’m suspicious of that statement.
Many 50 year old planes have a little hangar rash blemishes, that’s not an airworthy item.

[Jsno]

Mooney manual refers you to use AC 43.13 for repairs.

[A64Pilot]

42 minutes ago, Jsno said:

Mooney manual refers you to use AC 43.13 for repairs.

Most all CAR 3 legacy aircraft do, and 43.13 used to be a much better manual than it now is as a lot has been removed.

I’ve fought this battle, the FAA wants to shed liability and is doing what they can to force the manufacturers to write structural repair manuals, which frankly is beyond the means of most manufacturers who are just hanging on and don’t have excess funds.

Some FAA inspectors take the position that without a structural repair manual that no defects are allowed, which simply isn’t true, but try arguing with one, it’s unlikely you will win.

Ref what is the liability of the person performing a Pre-buy? Absolutely nothing, and that’s because as far as the FAA is concerned a pre-buy doesn’t exist, there are no performance standards. I can only assume they were thought up by someone who didn’t want to pay for an annual, which is legally defined as if I as an IA signs off on an annual on an un-airworthy aircraft, you do have recourse, and the FAA will investigate a complaint

You’re not the first to complain and ask what my options are when un-airworthy items are found on the first Annual that were missed on the pre-buy.

But consider yourself lucky as your problems can be fixed without a huge cash outlay, I remember one thread where on the first Annual excessive corrosion was found on the main spar, which is often the death knell for an airplane as often it cost more to fix than the aircraft’s value

My advice next time is get an IA to do a decent inspection, and if in their opinion it’s a good looking aircraft to go ahead and complete the Annual and if not, cut bait or get the seller to pay for the fixes, That’s no guarantee that every non-airworthy item will be found, but if they follow the Mooney checklist for an Annual, it’s about as close as you can reasonably get. It will cost more most likely, but you do get a full year before the next annual is due.

Many of the GA fleet is OLD, average is likely 50 years or so, and age has its effect unfortunately. The older they get, the harder we have to look

https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/design_approvals/small_airplanes/cos/aging_aircraft/media/aging_aircraft_best_practices.pdf

[jaylw314]

14 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

The IA is not responsible for the airworthiness of the aircraft. Their only responsibility is doing a thorough inspection. The airworthiness is the responsibility of the owner. An IA cannot ground an airplane. Only the FAA can do that. 
 

I have found the FAA very easy to deal with to get a ferry permit to fly it to a different shop. That is one item specifically called out on the form for a ferry permit.

AFAIK, the aircraft becomes unairworthy once a year, and it takes a completed annual and IA's signature to make it airworthy again, so practically IA's do get an opportunity to ground your plane once a year.  The only thing you can really typically control is whose shop its in when that happens.

I imagine the aircraft becomes unairworthy once the annual inspection actually starts--is that correct?  I'm not sure what impact that would have if you tell the IA not to complete the annual and try to take it to another IA.  I assume it's simpler to have him complete the annual with discrepancies (he wants to get paid), get a ferry permit, and take it to another A&P to correct those discrepancies, even it it's just to say "pshaw".  You could even take it back to the A&P who did the pre-buy, since it doesn't have to be an IA.

Edited November 17, 2022 by jaylw314

[TheAv8r]

8 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

AFAIK, the aircraft becomes unairworthy once a year, and it takes a completed annual and IA's signature to make it airworthy again, so practically IA's do get an opportunity to ground your plane once a year.  The only thing you can really typically control is whose shop its in when that happens.

I imagine the aircraft becomes unairworthy once the annual inspection actually starts--is that correct?  I'm not sure what impact that would have if you tell the IA not to complete the annual and try to take it to another IA.  I assume it's simpler to have him complete the annual with discrepancies (he wants to get paid), get a ferry permit, and take it to another A&P to correct those discrepancies, even it it's just to say "pshaw".  You could even take it back to the A&P who did the pre-buy, since it doesn't have to be an IA.

My understanding (I'll let the A&Ps in the group correct me if wrong) is that as long as you're not past the last day of the month in which the annual is due, the airplane is still airworthy. For example, if your annual is due in December, you bring it in Dec. 1, shop begins it and says on December 7th hey, these 5 things are not airworthy and we can't sign off on the annual until it's fixed, you can take it to another shop as the plane is still airworthy until December 31st. If they got back to you on January 1st, then the airplane is unairworthy because it is no longer in annual.

[N201MKTurbo]

29 minutes ago, TheAv8r said:

My understanding (I'll let the A&Ps in the group correct me if wrong) is that as long as you're not past the last day of the month in which the annual is due, the airplane is still airworthy. For example, if your annual is due in December, you bring it in Dec. 1, shop begins it and says on December 7th hey, these 5 things are not airworthy and we can't sign off on the annual until it's fixed, you can take it to another shop as the plane is still airworthy until December 31st. If they got back to you on January 1st, then the airplane is unairworthy because it is no longer in annual.

This is absolutely correct.

And if it is out of annual getting a special airworthiness certificate (ferry permit) isn't that hard. but you will need an A&P to certify the plane is "Airworthy for Flight".

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

AFAIK, the aircraft becomes unairworthy once a year, and it takes a completed annual and IA's signature to make it airworthy again, so practically IA's do get an opportunity to ground your plane once a year.  The only thing you can really typically control is whose shop its in when that happens.

I imagine the aircraft becomes unairworthy once the annual inspection actually starts--is that correct?  I'm not sure what impact that would have if you tell the IA not to complete the annual and try to take it to another IA.  I assume it's simpler to have him complete the annual with discrepancies (he wants to get paid), get a ferry permit, and take it to another A&P to correct those discrepancies, even it it's just to say "pshaw".  You could even take it back to the A&P who did the pre-buy, since it doesn't have to be an IA.

Technically no. If you have an annual inspection performed 8 months after the last annual inspection, the aircraft is still in annual from the previous inspection for 12 calendar months..  If you were to have a disagreement with the IA regarding the airworthiness of something like a fuel seep, no ferry permit would be needed to fly elsewhere. However, if you’re wrong about the airworthiness of the fuel seeps, you are technically flying an unairworthy airplane, but that situation has nothing to do with the second annual.

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, TheAv8r said:

My understanding (I'll let the A&Ps in the group correct me if wrong) is that as long as you're not past the last day of the month in which the annual is due, the airplane is still airworthy. For example, if your annual is due in December, you bring it in Dec. 1, shop begins it and says on December 7th hey, these 5 things are not airworthy and we can't sign off on the annual until it's fixed, you can take it to another shop as the plane is still airworthy until December 31st. If they got back to you on January 1st, then the airplane is unairworthy because it is no longer in annual.

 

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

This is absolutely correct.

And if it is out of annual getting a special airworthiness certificate (ferry permit) isn't that hard. but you will need an A&P to certify the plane is "Airworthy for Flight".

 

49 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Technically no. If you have an annual inspection performed 8 months after the last annual inspection, the aircraft is still in annual from the previous inspection for 12 calendar months..  If you were to have a disagreement with the IA regarding the airworthiness of something like a fuel seep, no ferry permit would be needed to fly elsewhere. However, if you’re wrong about the airworthiness of the fuel seeps, you are technically flying an unairworthy airplane, but that situation has nothing to do with the second annual.

Thanks guys, I'm trying to find where I saw that suggested.  I think I saw it in one of Mike Busch's webinars, and when I saw it, I tried to find a reference for his claim but couldn't find one.

[ZuluZulu]

15 hours ago, PT20J said:

Sounds like the person doing the inspection caught the items. Repair estimates vary widely depending on who does the work. You classified the fuel leak as a seep which according to the Mooney Service and Maintenance Manual is not an airworthiness item. Cost to repair could be small or large depending on a lot of factors beyond the scope of a pre-purchase inspection. 

You characterized the aileron as having minor trailing edge damage. Even if it has to be replaced, used ailerons can be had for a few hundred dollars. 

I would say that the pre-purchase inspector correctly identified the issues but perhaps underestimated the cost to rectify and it sounds like your current IA isn’t very familiar with Mooneys. Finding a fair and capable mechanic you trust and can work with is one of the more difficult but crucial factors to successful ownership in my experience. 

Since you are new to all this, you might find SavvyMx a worthwhile investment https://www.savvyaviation.com

Skip

To add on, SavvyMX is the service where Savvy actually comes on board as, effectively, your maintenance manager and will stand between you and your shop as your representative. They communicate with the shop directly on your behalf. Kind of like a project manager or general contractor, with the project being your airplane and the subcontractor being your maintenance vendors. To protect themselves in this role, Savvy also requires you add them to your insurance and make other promises in your contract. 

A middle ground (and less expensive) option is SavvyQA. You still manage your relationship with your shop directly, but you have an adviser (actually a team of advisers) on retainer you can ask questions of whenever you want. Savvy does NOT (and will not) communicate directly with your shop on a QA plan so it falls on you to keep them informed and intentionally seek specific advice, but it can be very helpful to a new owner to have their assistance especially on tricky problems without an obvious solution. I use SavvyQA and have been pretty happy with it because I recognize I am new and don’t know everything (far from it) yet I still enjoy being hands-on in my maintenance and personally invested in the relationship with my A&P/IA. I think my A&P appreciates the fact that he deals directly with me, or at least he’s tactful enough not to tell me otherwise. 

[Guest]

On 11/16/2022 at 11:00 AM, iamit said:

So, I guess it's part of the cost of learning (first time owner): the pre-buy report I got mentioned a few "squaks" that were noted as $200-$500 fixes (minor hangar rash on aileron trailing edged, and a minor fuel seepage).

However when running the annual now, these two items are basically airworthiness issues, and can't just be fixed with $200-$500 (control surfaces can't be fixed or stop-drilled - need either reskinning, or replacing, fuel seepage isn't something you can seal from the outside and monitor - need to drain tanks, get in there and properly seal). 

What's the responsibility of the A&P who performed the pre-buy? Should I be going to them to cover the cost of fixes since these are airworthiness items that should have been noted as such in the pre-buy? Just suck it up and check it off as the cost of learning airplane ownership?

Your vintage airplane manual does classify fuel leaks and really has little to say about flight control repairs.

[Yetti]

If the fuel leaks are around a screw in an inspection tank access port taking the screw out and applying some Permetex 3 will probably take care of them.   Post pictures of the control surfaces.

 

[A64Pilot]

An IA can’t ground an airplane, that idea came from the Military where maintainers do ground aircraft, I think. Actually anyone in the Military can ground one, but only someone on Technical Inspection orders can un-ground one. A whole lot of maintainers come from the Military as it’s one way to get the practical experience to be able to test for the A&P.

I also think maybe in extreme cases the FAA could be called and they can ground aircraft.

As an IA if I discover unairworthy conditions during an Annual, if the Annual was completed I make a logbook entry saying that the Annual is completed but there were still unsatisfactory conditions and a list of those conditions was given to the owner. I do not list those conditions in the logbook.

I would of course have him or her sign that list and keep a copy, so that when they kill themselves I can show that they were made aware of the unsafe condition.

I’ve never had to do that and think it doesn’t occur very often, if I were buying an aircraft and saw an entry like that, it would make me concerned. If I was still interested in buying I’d want to contact the IA and request a copy of the list to ensure that all discrepancies were really addressed, an unscrupulous person could possibly give a different list to another A&P and have him or her sign off that they had been corrected.

11. DISCREPANCY LISTS.
a. Before October 15, 1982, issuance of discrepancy lists (or lists of defects) to owners or operators was appropriate only in connection with annual inspections under part 91, inspections under § 135.411(a)(1), inspection programs under part 125, and inspections under § 91.217. Now, § 43.11 requires that a discrepancy list be prepared by a person performing any inspection required by parts 91, 125, or § 135.411(a)(1).
b. When a discrepancy list is provided to an owner or operator, it says in effect, except for these discrepancies, the item inspected is airworthy. It is imperative, therefore, that inspections be complete and that all discrepancies appear in the list. When circumstances dictate that an
 Par 9 Page 6

4/7/17 AC 43-9C CHG 1
inspection be terminated before it is completed, the maintenance record should clearly indicate that the inspection was discontinued. The entry should meet all the other requirements of
§ 43.11.
c. It is no longer a requirement that copies of discrepancy lists be forwarded to the local Flight Standards District Office (FSDO).
d. Discrepancy lists (or lists of defects) are part of the maintenance record and the owner/operator is responsible to maintain that record in accordance with § 91.417(b)(3). The entry made by maintenance personnel in the maintenance record should reference the discrepancy list when a list is issued.

This logbook / records thing gets complicated and is really easy for fraud, for instance I’ve seen an aircraft seller take a razor blade and remove a page from a logbook where the aircraft had been wrecked and it can be argued that wasn’t illegal due to age of when the entry was made.

[carusoam]

What happened….

uareit, no pics?

Best regards,

-a-