100LL: EPA proposed endangerment finding

[GeeBee]

With regard to radiation, usually if you need successive CT scans, radiation exposure is the least of your problems. Ask me how I know.

With regard to avgas lead. I used to handle thousands of gallons a week. The green stuff no less. I hatch loaded trucks, pumped it airplanes, checked sumps in the dump. I'm ok.....I think

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

That's the entitlement mindset. "We were here first, we aren't leaving for you." Followed by thoughts on how to get rich quick at someone else's expense. I just hope they had actual doctor bills they paid out of their own pockets for the con they tried to run . . . .

I don't think they were trying to scam anybody, but they were convinced the stuff would kill them, so they convinced themselves they were dying.

[Pinecone]

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

I'd say this effect on our generation is probably washed out by the fact that we exposed EVERYONE to higher levels of lead during childhood.  It's really only kids in the last 30 years who've had the benefit of lower lead exposure.

How often did we complain that only kids could figure out how to program VCR's?  Maybe that was the reason!   

Exactly.

Lead in house paint.

Lead in paint on toys

Lead in Auto fuel.

Go back a ways and actually cast lead toys

[Pinecone]

38 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Everyone on this forum over the age of thirty sss exposed to leaded auto gas exhaust to some degree. Those of us born in the 70s or earlier playd in driveways where Cars burning lead were   started, idled and shut down on a daily basis. If you lived in a major city from about 1950 to 1985 you were surrounded by leaded auto fumes all the time.  Being In proximity to let it auto fuel was once a way of life for every family in this country and indeed most throughout the world.
If leaded Avgas exhaust from a run up areas and departure corridors is dangerous to home owners 1000 yards away, then everyone over the age of 50 should have lead poisoning. Yet there’s no evidence for that. I agree that lead should go away. I am perplexed that we as a nation lived with it as our main source of auto fuel for nearly 4 decades without poisoning the whole population.

Yeap.

[FlyingDude]

Ancient Romans used to add lead to their food and wine as artificial sweetener. They were pretty vain and even had vomitoriums where they'd vomit hefty meals to prevent weight gain. They used to get lead poisoning and die, but it wasn't instantaneous like with arsenic. It used to build up over time. That's why they didn't know that it was due to lead. Now, the lead in avgas is much much much diluted compared to lead flakes added on ones food on a daily basis.  Plus, not all of it ends up in the air (a lot of it goes into the oil, solid build-ups, the gunk on the underbelly...)

So I wouldn't be surprised if the contribution of avgas combustion to atmospheric lead build-up turned out to be insignificant.

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, FlyingDude said:

Ancient Romans used to add lead to their food and wine as artificial sweetener. They were pretty vain and even had vomitoriums where they'd vomit hefty meals to prevent weight gain. They used to get lead poisoning and die, but it wasn't instantaneous like with arsenic. It used to build up over time. That's why they didn't know that it was due to lead. Now, the lead in avgas is much much much diluted compared to lead flakes added on ones food on a daily basis.  Plus, not all of it ends up in the air (a lot of it goes into the oil, solid build-ups, the gunk on the underbelly...)

So I wouldn't be surprised if the contribution of avgas combustion to atmospheric lead build-up turned out to be insignificant.

I think that's kind of the point of the data out there--there is no insignificant amount and any amount produces measurable negative impacts (at least in the contamination amounts we've seen throughout the last 100 years).  Nowadays, it is at least less frequent and less severe, but still measurable.

[ilovecornfields]

57 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

I think that's kind of the point of the data out there--there is no insignificant amount and any amount produces measurable negative impacts (at least in the contamination amounts we've seen throughout the last 100 years).  Nowadays, it is at least less frequent and less severe, but still measurable.

Maybe that’s why we got ourselves into this mess. All those lead toys we played with as kids.

https://systematicreviewsjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13643-022-01963-y
 

Besides flying planes, I used to go to the shooting range a lot as a kid so maybe that explains all my poor life choices as a teenager. Although at some point I do remember them requiring FMJ to reduce the airborne lead exposure.

The place I used to go to in college got shut down for contaminating the kids gym next door.

https://capitalandmain.com/lead-dust-closes-bay-area-gun-range-and-kids-gym-0504
 

I’m fine with less lead in the world. 

[FlyingDude]

4 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

think that's kind of the point of the data out there--there is no insignificant amount and any amount produces measurable negative impacts (

That sounds more like confirmation bias to me.

[N201MKTurbo]

I’m a CB. When I get to an airport, if all they have is G100UL, that’s what I’ll buy. If they have 100LL and it’s cheaper that’s what I’ll buy.

When flying gets too expensive, I’ll sell the Mooney and just fly other peoples airplanes.

[carusoam]

You guys are all getting along really well lately…

There’s even a Brice sighting!

Must be something in the coffee….  

 

Anyone work with somebody that had high lead levels for extended periods of time?

There were a few cases of fuel tanks that leaked lead based auto fuels into the ground water system…. Into neighborhoods that used shallow wells to get drinking water…

 

The EPA has also generated new rules for underground storage tanks since then….

One thing that is different…

Lead has a huge affect on young students growing up… something related to brain development is at risk…

As adults, our brain development isn’t very high so it may not be very noticeable…

 

Sooooo…. The people that grew up next to a gas station… are at a higher risk than those that grew up near an airport…

 

Hah! Take that… main stream media!   
 

Best regards,

-a-

[A64Pilot]

On 10/13/2022 at 3:49 PM, FlyingDude said:

 

So I wouldn't be surprised if the contribution of avgas combustion to atmospheric lead build-up turned out to be insignificant.

I believe it is insignificant as the total is so small and extremely widely dispersed. just as I believe occasional dental x-rays are insignificant. Way back when apparently several Dentists actually X-rayed their thumbs off as they would hold the film in the patients mouth, it’s all dosage, and modern electronic X-ray machines that don’t use film use a fraction of the X-rays that film required

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4319329/

However the ones in charge of EPA etc have always been zero tolerance types, while there are almost always acceptable levels of any pollutant, their goal is to drive everything to zero, when the money and time would be better spent elsewhere.

Ref Rome and lead it’s been thought for a long time that their ingestion of lead very often in the wine they drank was a leading cause for the fall of Rome

Lead was in auto fuel since 1923, so it was a lot longer than 40 years, but I don’t know when all auto fuel contained lead, maybe 40 years

However sometimes whenever we ban something because of it’s health effects the replacement is as bad or worse, if you look there is a growing furor over aeromatics in Auto fuel. It may turn out that they are as bad or worse than lead.

Just Google aeromatics in auto fuel and do some reading, it may not be as harmless as we think.

If you look at children of today, there are a lot more health issues now than when I was a child, back then the thought that a peanut or glass of milk could kill was ridiculous, very few were obese, and no one ever heard of Autism or many other maladies that are so prevalent today, so it would seem that something is still causing problems.

[A64Pilot]

On 10/14/2022 at 1:14 AM, carusoam said:

 

Anyone work with somebody that had high lead levels for extended periods of time?

I can honestly say that I have never even heard of anyone ever having any issue with lead, much less known someone, maybe it was there and undiagnosed, but then I’ve never known someone that was Murdered either and we know that happens.

[aviatoreb]

On 10/14/2022 at 1:14 AM, carusoam said:

You guys are all getting along really well lately…

There’s even a Brice sighting!

Must be something in the coffee….  

 

Anyone work with somebody that had high lead levels for extended periods of time?

There were a few cases of fuel tanks that leaked lead based auto fuels into the ground water system…. Into neighborhoods that used shallow wells to get drinking water…

 

The EPA has also generated new rules for underground storage tanks since then….

One thing that is different…

Lead has a huge affect on young students growing up… something related to brain development is at risk…

As adults, our brain development isn’t very high so it may not be very noticeable…

 

Sooooo…. The people that grew up next to a gas station… are at a higher risk than those that grew up near an airport…

 

Hah! Take that… main stream media!   
 

Best regards,

-a-

I think the other classic scenario for lead exposure in children is of course through lead paint.  It peals off on old painted window sills etc, and the small children eat it.  That gives very high exposure and can give significant developmental outcomes.

Then of course there is lead in the water pipes, aka Flint Michigan.

[aviatoreb]

42 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

I can honestly say that I have never even heard of anyone ever having any issue with lead, much less known someone, maybe it was there and undiagnosed, but then I’ve never known someone that was Murdered either and we know that happens.

Sadly, I have, for both lead and for murder, and I can attest it exists.

[ilovecornfields]

7 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

If you look at children of today, there are a lot more health issues now than when I was a child, back then the thought that a peanut or glass of milk could kill was ridiculous, very few were obese, and no one ever heard of Autism or many other maladies that are so prevalent today, so it would seem that something is still causing problems.

Yes, anaphylaxis to peanuts is a new disease. It was invented by the biased media to scare parents into buying almond butter. Probably funded by the trillion dollar almond butter lobby.

Autism and ADD are new as well. Creations of the medical industrial complex designed to make pharmaceutical companies rich and psychiatrists millionaires.

Or maybe people’s lifestyles suck, social norms about taking about disease have changed and the explosion of the internet and social media has made us much more aware of things that previously wouldn’t have risen to the threshold to get published in the newspaper, Newsweek, Time or appeared on the evening news. If you’re spending all day in front of a screen, don’t exercise and eat crap then you’ll probably be unhealthy. Regardless of the “aromatics” in the fuel.

Disturbing how our dialogue has transcended facts now and WAG based on our own opinions and preconceived biases on how we see the world are regarded as perfectly adequate replacements.

[Jerry 5TJ]

On 10/14/2022 at 1:14 AM, carusoam said:

As adults, our brain development isn’t very high so it may not be very noticeable…

Wait, you’re saying that in adults lead poisoning doesn’t affect us as our brains are already deteriorating?  

[ragedracer1977]

5 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

I think the other classic scenario for lead exposure in children is of course through lead paint.  It peals off on old painted window sills etc, and the small children eat it.  That gives very high exposure and can give significant developmental outcomes.

Then of course there is lead in the water pipes, aka Flint Michigan.

I don’t know if buy the “eating lead paint” thing.  I’ve heard it my whole life.  Now, with 3 grown kids, I can’t see how that’s a realistic vector.  Kids are weird, but not pick paint off a house and eat it weird.

did that really ever happen in mass numbers?

[ilovecornfields]

3 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

I don’t know if buy the “eating lead paint” thing.  I’ve heard it my whole life.  Now, with 3 grown kids, I can’t see how that’s a realistic vector.  Kids are weird, but not pick paint off a house and eat it weird.

did that really ever happen in mass numbers?

Obviously you’re using the wrong kind of paint in your house. The stuff you’re using probably tastes horrible.

I found this on the internet so I’m assuming it’s true:

”Lead acetate has a sweet taste. It’s so sweet that it used to be called “sugar of lead.” It is as sweet as white sugar. Flakes of white paint containing lead acetate taste like candy to infants and toddlers who, as we all know, have a habit of putting all sorts of stuff in their mouths.”

[carusoam]

I have had the good fortune to work with people with cog challenges…

One kid, in my high school days… lived downstream from the leaking fuel tanks… he struggled more than others…

 

To lead a full life… measured by going the full distance….

1) stay physically healthy

2) stay cognitively healthy

3) have dough in the bank to the end…

All things required to fly a Mooney on your hundredth birthday…. 

Statistics…

young kids have brain injuries from car accidents…

middle aged guys fall off of tall objects at work…

older folks get the strokes…

These are mostly a recoverable event when lucky…

Alzheimers is something that should be made illegal…  Go Science!

Note for Jerry…

our brains were already deteriorating prior to the first fast plane purchase…

Going faster with each following plane doesn’t make us appear very sane…. According to my cog therapist…. 
 

PP thoughts and attempted humor only… Not a cog scientist…

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

54 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

I don’t know if buy the “eating lead paint” thing.  I’ve heard it my whole life.  Now, with 3 grown kids, I can’t see how that’s a realistic vector.  Kids are weird, but not pick paint off a house and eat it weird.

did that really ever happen in mass numbers?

keep in mind the paint they were seeing back in the day…

the white paint that covered the interior walls of every house in America… would continuously slough off dust containing the lead carbonate… one of the best white pigments ever…

Today we use TiO2….

If you lived in a house built after the turn of the century…

You got exposed to high levels of lead paint, water from lead pipes, and asbestos insulation…

falling down stairs was easy… no railings and non-standard stairs and risers…

the asbestos was on pipes and home furnaces and was often crumbling with the decades… Easy to become airborne…

 

keep in mind… most people aren’t very sensitive to these materials…

But, there are some people that are very sensitive….  
 

Same with peanut butter…

 

Without statistics and modern medicine… we would croak at an early age without knowing what killed us…

Once we know…  at least our off-spring have a fighting chance to avoid what we did… 

 

For really interesting observations… watch what kids in any day care put in their mouths…. It only takes five minutes to see things you wouldn’t expect…

 

PP observations only…. Houses got much safer after aluminum wiring stopped being used in the 70s… along with smoke detectors… and nat gas detectors…

few people were expected to last very long past retirement day…

Some MSers are just getting started flying at this age….

See anyone smoking cigarettes lately…?

Some people aren’t sensitive to this either…

 

Long Live MSers!

 

Best regards,

-a-

[ilovecornfields]

4 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Wait, you’re saying that in adults lead poisoning doesn’t affect us as our brains are already deteriorating?  

I think he’s on to something. Your brain is probably mush by now. Better give up now before you create problems for yourself and resign yourself to a life of watching TV and eating bon bons.

Funny thing about “downsizing” airplanes when you’re feeling cognitively impaired is that you can kill yourself in a Cub just as dead as you can in a TBM.

[Tony Starke]

Go ahead and ban 100ll, just don’t touch my chaca-chaca.

[midlifeflyer]

14 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said:

I don’t know if buy the “eating lead paint” thing.  I’ve heard it my whole life.  Now, with 3 grown kids, I can’t see how that’s a realistic vector.  Kids are weird, but not pick paint off a house and eat it weird.

did that really ever happen in mass numbers?

Really, three gown kids who never sucked on weird stuff when they were little? 

For numbers, there are the usual problems. Paint was a bigger problem in lower class communities. It existed everywhere but old cracking paint never repaired and crumbling was a bigger problem in lower cost housing and slums. You might not buy that but even  today, rental habitability and maintenance issues are greater in poorer communities.  
 

But it wasn't just house paint. Lead paint on toys, heck, lead toys. Are we limiting the sample to short term death or long term effects on cognition and health? The latter is still being studied, with some estimates indicating exposure rates as high as  to 50% of Americans brought up in the lead era.

 

[Pinecone]

17 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said:

I don’t know if buy the “eating lead paint” thing.  I’ve heard it my whole life.  Now, with 3 grown kids, I can’t see how that’s a realistic vector.  Kids are weird, but not pick paint off a house and eat it weird.

did that really ever happen in mass numbers?

It is documented in children with poor diets.

[Pinecone]

Again, the problem is doing studies on low doses to anything is to:

1)  Find a sufficient size population with documented low dose.  Not only documented that they have a low dose exposure, but the amount of exposure.

2) Fine a sufficient size population with a documented zero dose.

And then, make sure that there is no other possible exposure that could give you the same results.  Correlation does not mean causation.