M20J vs M20K

[William A]

6 hours ago, Perri Dyer said:

I have been to @Parker_Woodruff website, filled out the contact form, and sent a direct email, no response. So hopefully he reaches out here. Not the best first impression for me so far. 

parker reached out to me directly thru this app within minutes of me messaging him.

[Fly Boomer]

Just now, William A said:

parker reached out to me directly thru this app within minutes of me messaging him.

Parker has responded.

[Igor_U]

19 hours ago, William A said:

How much is it typically to rebuild/replace the m20j 200hp engine? Specifically the 1984 factory/stock engine? Prop?

I believe some of the prices are really old and hence low. You better check Air Power website for new, high Lycoming and continental OH prices. 

A year and half ago I paid almost $35k for Lycoming zero time engine (OH was $4k less). IIRC, now that engine is close to $45k (not a typo)!! OH is cheaper but at the time I did it, Lycoming would not OH engine older then 38y; I had to go with rebuilt.

 

Field OH were not much cheaper (some were even more then Lycoming) and when is,, it typically does not include everything factory would do. You get what you paid for, in my experience.

 

Good luck with your plane search. If you can afford it, go with M20K (252).

 

[William A]

18 hours ago, Igor_U said:

I believe some of the prices are really old and hence low. You better check Air Power website for new, high Lycoming and continental OH prices. 

A year and half ago I paid almost $35k for Lycoming zero time engine (OH was $4k less). IIRC, now that engine is close to $45k (not a typo)!! OH is cheaper but at the time I did it, Lycoming would not OH engine older then 38y; I had to go with rebuilt.

 

Field OH were not much cheaper (some were even more then Lycoming) and when is,, it typically does not include everything factory would do. You get what you paid for, in my experience.

 

Good luck with your plane search. If you can afford it, go with M20K (252).

 

the 1984 m20J red white and blue one just sold. what is the story on these MSE (turbo normalized m20Js?) gmax has a 1992 m20J MSE that looks like a good plane but im curious if the gas mileage (gph) and annuals would be similar to the regular non turbo J?

[Igor_U]

M20J MSE did not come with turbo from the factory. There was an old STC to install Rayjay turbo and there are few owners on MS that have it. They might provide more answers... 

20 minutes ago, William A said:

the 1984 m20J red white and blue one just sold. what is the story on these MSE (turbo normalized m20Js?) gmax has a 1992 m20J MSE that looks like a good plane but im curious if the gas mileage (gph) and annuals would be similar to the regular non turbo J?

 

[Hank]

Just now, bluehighwayflyer said:

The MSE designation has nothing to do with the STC’d turbo installation on some Js.  Just FYI.  Mooney just marketed the M20J as the “MSE” instead of as the “201” for a few years there in the 90s.  

It was the Millennium Special Edition, with special avionics that may have affected the price. Plus it was cool to have a Millennium Special before the Millennium arrived.

[LANCECASPER]

MSE was just a Mooney Special Edition (none of the ads or marketing materials said anything about Millenium), it is what they were calling the 201 with a certain package from 1990 - 1997. It differed from the 1992 201 AT (Advanced Trainer) and the 1992 Mooney MSE Limited by the standard equipment that it had.  

From 1993 - 1997 all 201’s were MSE. In 1998 they called the 201 the Allegro for the last year of its production. 

[TheAv8r]

Some fantastic advice already in this thread, I'm going to be a heretic and throw my $0.02 into the mix:

• I truly believe in buying the airplane that fits your mission. Why? Because you're going to use it more and enjoy it more if it does. If you buy a Cessna 150 but plan on doing 1500nm XCs every month with 2 people, you're going to quickly hate your plane after making the 4th fuel stop in 9 hours. If you buy a turbo twin Baron but only fly within 70nm of your home base, you're going to quickly rethink flying as you see the fuel bills and mx bills stack up.
• Buy your 2nd airplane first. If you think your mission will change, you want to get Instrument Rated, maybe do more XC flying, then think about what that will look like. If you're convinced it won't 10 years down the road, then stick with your current mission.
• You did a great job defining your mission: 80% local flying in the DFW area with the occasional short XC (ABI from DFW is 1-2hrs pending plane), and maybe 1 longer XC a year (NM isn't even that far).
• A Mooney does not fit that mission. It's too much airplane for that. You'll just be throwing away money in acquisition, maintenance, and operating cost. If 70-80% of your mission were medium XC trips, then I'd say a Mooney is a great fit. It's not a local buzzing around airplane.
• I'd recommend taking a look at Piper Cherokee 180s, Grumman Cheetahs (Tigers are great too but unobtanium), Cessna 172s, etc. These are planes that fit your mission profile better, they're not super fast but very economical to fly around locally. The time difference between flying a 120kt Cherokee 180 and a 145kt Mooney M20 from DFW to ABI will be maybe 7-10 minutes. They will have lower maintenance cost, lower insurance cost, anybody can work on them, and they can still do the occasional longer XC flight. 

Edited July 13, 2022 by Alex M

[toto]

15 hours ago, Alex M said:

The time difference between flying a 120kt Cherokee 180 and a 145kt Mooney M20 from DFW to ABI will be maybe 7-10 minutes.

For whatever it's worth, as someone who owns both - this is more like a two-hour practical difference.  In the Cherokee with 48 gallons usable, I'm stopping for gas before getting to NM. Stopping for gas is taxi and fueling time, but also just more travel fatigue. So inevitably it's an FBO bathroom visit and probably lunch, followed by another hour in the plane. The Mooney does it in one shot easy, and I'm relatively refreshed on landing. It's a 5-6 hour trip versus a 3-hour trip, all in. 

That was ultimately why I bought the Mooney, and it does everything it was advertised to do

(I'll note in passing that the Piper is no more than a 110-knot cruiser, and the Mooney is a solid 155. So I'd put the straight-line time at more like 3 hours versus 4+)

I have a friend who goes to the ATM in Vegas and withdraws what he calls "fun tickets." I think of the cost of flying similarly. There's absolutely no way to justify any of this as transportation. It's an enjoyable way to spend free time and free money, and I won't begrudge someone tooling around the traffic pattern in a Meridian if they won't begrudge me a bunch of local flights in a Mooney - with the occasional cross country thrown in for fun

 

 

[Sue Bon]

Missions change with time and experience. When I bought my Mooney six years ago, I never dreamed I would be flying to the places I go to today.

[Fly Boomer]

4 hours ago, Sue Bon said:

When I bought my Mooney six years ago, I never dreamed I would be flying to the places I go to today.

Because you can!  The only justification you need.

[Skates97]

On 7/13/2022 at 10:45 AM, Alex M said:

Some fantastic advice already in this thread, I'm going to be a heretic and throw my $0.02 into the mix:

• I truly believe in buying the airplane that fits your mission. Why? Because you're going to use it more and enjoy it more if it does. If you buy a Cessna 150 but plan on doing 1500nm XCs every month with 2 people, you're going to quickly hate your plane after making the 4th fuel stop in 9 hours. If you buy a turbo twin Baron but only fly within 70nm of your home base, you're going to quickly rethink flying as you see the fuel bills and mx bills stack up.
• Buy your 2nd airplane first. If you think your mission will change, you want to get Instrument Rated, maybe do more XC flying, then think about what that will look like. If you're convinced it won't 10 years down the road, then stick with your current mission.
• You did a great job defining your mission: 80% local flying in the DFW area with the occasional short XC (ABI from DFW is 1-2hrs pending plane), and maybe 1 longer XC a year (NM isn't even that far).
• A Mooney does not fit that mission. It's too much airplane for that. You'll just be throwing away money in acquisition, maintenance, and operating cost. If 70-80% of your mission were medium XC trips, then I'd say a Mooney is a great fit. It's not a local buzzing around airplane.
• I'd recommend taking a look at Piper Cherokee 180s, Grumman Cheetahs (Tigers are great too but unobtanium), Cessna 172s, etc. These are planes that fit your mission profile better, they're not super fast but very economical to fly around locally. The time difference between flying a 120kt Cherokee 180 and a 145kt Mooney M20 from DFW to ABI will be maybe 7-10 minutes. They will have lower maintenance cost, lower insurance cost, anybody can work on them, and they can still do the occasional longer XC flight. 

It is hard for any GA plane to beat a M20C with the O-360 for low maintenance costs and efficiency. If you find one with the Johnson Bar it is even better for maintenance costs. It is great for just wandering around on local flights and fast/efficient enough for longer cross countries. Even if it is 80% local flying I would argue for a C over a Cherokee, 172, or any of the others. The J would be nice, but even on my long 500+ mi trips the J would only save me 15-20 minutes.

And it comes down to what you want to fly as well. I have a hangar neighbor with a beautiful A-36 that rarely travels more than 80-100 miles away. He flies 2-3 times a week and loves the plane. 

[A64Pilot]

Ref just knocking around local in a Mooney.

I think they are great for that, mine flies very well at 120 kts indicated. 

People in my neighborhood regularly fly every Sun to breakfast, I can take either the J model Mooney or my C-140, I often take the Mooney because it’s as cheap to do so and more comfortable.

Passed a neighbor in his 0-200 powered legend cub, he was burning 7.3 GPH and making 90 kts, I went by at a little over 120 kts 22 squared, 50C LOP and burning 6.5 GPH. I know 50C is too lean, but she’s smooth there and seems to like it.

30 kts faster and .8 gallon less fuel flow than a Cub

The Cub burns at least 1/3 more fuel over the same distance as the Mooney. My C-140 with its C-85 does better of course, but it’s not cheaper fuel burn wise than the Mooney, except it can burn car gas.

The fact that you can burn less fuel than a Cub in a Mooney is rather astonishing.

Of course the Bo guys run WOT at 165 kts and hit their heads on the roof from turbulence, slow down to 120 kts and the bumps are lots softer. I can run 165 kts too, at 19 GPH, but why for a breakfast run?

Economy of operation is the J model’s Forte.

[Fly Boomer]

3 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

I know 50C is too lean, but she’s smooth there and seems to like it.

No such thing unless you pull it out so far the engine quits.

[A64Pilot]

7 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

No such thing unless you pull it out so far the engine quits.

Just saying that I believe it’s leaner than most efficient mixture, but she seems to like it, cowl flaps full closed cyl head temp 1/3 of the way in the green in 90 degree Fl heat. plugs stay clean no deposits and smooth running.

I think if I richen her up a little and reduced manifold to same indicated speed it may burn slightly less, but it’s just too easy to set 22 squared and 6.5 gph don’t bother finding peak etc

[cwaters]

On 7/11/2022 at 8:50 AM, dzeleski said:

Ill add my .02 as a J owner....

The J is a 4 cylinder with a 25k overhaul. The K+ are all nearly double that price for an OH.

Do I want a K, M, or R? Yes and maybe one day. I've thought about upgrading probably 100 times since I bought it but every time I realize I dont really need that performance. I regularly take 4 people and 50gals for lunch or dinner at or near sea level (<5000 feet DA). I also regularly take overnight trips with 2-3 people and bags with 50-64 gals.

I plan on flying down to the Bahamas this year after mooney summit, ill hopefully be going to Osh in a few weeks, and ill also hopefully be getting out to Aspen in the fall (with mountain training) as my SOs family has a house there. All of this will be done with 2 people, 2 cats and various levels of fuel to make it happen.

What im getting at is if the J covers 90% of your needs and a commercial ticket or waiting for the right weather/air covers the 10% is it actually worth an airplane that costs far more then 10% of the cost of a good J? My IR checkride is next week and maybe flying into actual (14 hours of actual so far) more often will change my mind on this but at the moment I cant push that much more money into an airplane that I wont use to its full capacity.

For context my J is an early 1977 and has 1009lbs of useful, dual G5, GFC500, IFD 440. I would have to spend a significant amount (50-100k) more to get an equally capable K, M, R especially in the avionics department.

I feel the same about my J and I don't have near the avionics as you do. The J is a hard plane to beat if 80-90% of you mission doesn't call for the turbo. I got my IFR in my J (steam and a 430 non Waas) and I regularly look at the K's and always land back on my J cost per hr is better for my mission. Long xc flying and I don't really care about getting into the mid teens. I can cruise true around 150kts and burn 8.3 gph 

 

as for the high DA, I live in Co now and this is a regular thing in the summers, just don't take off at full gross and get off early in the morning and you're likely going to be fine. If you HAVE to be at max gross I would be asking other questions such as why you have to carry so much ?

[cwaters]

4 hours ago, Skates97 said:

I would argue for a C over a Cherokee, 172, or any of the others. The J would be nice, but even on my long 500+ mi trips the J would only save me 15-20 minutes.

but that J has more room for activities than the C does. 

[cwaters]

On 7/13/2022 at 11:45 AM, Alex M said:

Some fantastic advice already in this thread, I'm going to be a heretic and throw my $0.02 into the mix:

• I truly believe in buying the airplane that fits your mission. Why? Because you're going to use it more and enjoy it more if it does. If you buy a Cessna 150 but plan on doing 1500nm XCs every month with 2 people, you're going to quickly hate your plane after making the 4th fuel stop in 9 hours. If you buy a turbo twin Baron but only fly within 70nm of your home base, you're going to quickly rethink flying as you see the fuel bills and mx bills stack up.
• Buy your 2nd airplane first. If you think your mission will change, you want to get Instrument Rated, maybe do more XC flying, then think about what that will look like. If you're convinced it won't 10 years down the road, then stick with your current mission.
• You did a great job defining your mission: 80% local flying in the DFW area with the occasional short XC (ABI from DFW is 1-2hrs pending plane), and maybe 1 longer XC a year (NM isn't even that far).
• A Mooney does not fit that mission. It's too much airplane for that. You'll just be throwing away money in acquisition, maintenance, and operating cost. If 70-80% of your mission were medium XC trips, then I'd say a Mooney is a great fit. It's not a local buzzing around airplane.
• I'd recommend taking a look at Piper Cherokee 180s, Grumman Cheetahs (Tigers are great too but unobtanium), Cessna 172s, etc. These are planes that fit your mission profile better, they're not super fast but very economical to fly around locally. The time difference between flying a 120kt Cherokee 180 and a 145kt Mooney M20 from DFW to ABI will be maybe 7-10 minutes. They will have lower maintenance cost, lower insurance cost, anybody can work on them, and they can still do the occasional longer XC flight. 

I would argue that 80% local flying is likely the rental coming out in the projected mission. most people struggle to make true xc travel worth it with a rental so I would expect that the mission will grow slightly with a better xc plane. I firmly agree that as stated his mission is not really mooney material and certainly not K material just for the 1 time a year trip to higher DA. 

 

my wife and I always had a 500+nm requirement and that recently changed to a 1200nm trip just a few less times a year but we also saw a growth in our "burger" trips, if we were willing to spend an hr in the car to go get dinner somewhere then why not hop over a state and visit somewhere that would have been a full days drive before the mooney, yet would also be annoyingly far in a 180 or 172. not trying to start anything just food for thought. 

[William A]

32 minutes ago, cwaters said:

people struggle to make true xc travel worth it with a rental so I would expect that the mission will grow slightly with a better xc plane.

I hope so. So new to this that it’s difficult to see what the future will hold but excited nonetheless! I know my 2 boys (13&18yrs old) are busy making all kinds of plans for us.

[cwaters]

1 minute ago, William A said:

I hope so. So new to this that it’s difficult to see what the future will hold but excited nonetheless! I know my 2 boys (13&18yrs old) are busy making all kinds of plans for us.

yeah, if you havn't gotten the chance to get the full family in a mooney I would advise you do that before comitting $$. they are not "small" like people say but there is a method to putting a family in one and you will likely not take the full fam every time so it may not be an issue but those boys still have growing to do so if you're very family centric then you may need to re evaluate all together. 

[A64Pilot]

Mooney J model anyway would be fine for pre-teens, but not older or bigger kids. I have flown our adult Daughters, but that was a rare event, likely to not be repeated, certainly not very often, no baggage though.

At 18 I’m surprised he will travel with you, that’s uncommon. At that age mine were through with us, had no desire, wanted to stay home and were gone off to school a yr or so later.

Mooney compared to average SUV etc is small, it’s small compared to even a Prius, just the way it is, some of it is what has to be done to get in the back seat. Our Maule wasn’t really any bigger but as it had three doors, one for the back seat  so it seemed bigger because it was much easier getting in, the high wing made that even easier.

I think a Mooney is great for a couple, or younger family, think C-206 or 210 for four adults, maybe Cherokee 6, cause there is likely to be some luggage, unless you ship, which I recommend, try it sometime it’s a lot easier than you think and that way she can take what she wants to.

Average American isn’t small, if you are then that of course changes things

Average man 200 lbs, average Woman 170. Two average couples 740 lbs, add luggage and see how much is left for fuel.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/20/health/us-average-height-weight-report/index.html

[jaylw314]

51 minutes ago, cwaters said:

yeah, if you havn't gotten the chance to get the full family in a mooney I would advise you do that before comitting $$. they are not "small" like people say but there is a method to putting a family in one and you will likely not take the full fam every time so it may not be an issue but those boys still have growing to do so if you're very family centric then you may need to re evaluate all together. 

4 adults is doable comfortably for 2-3 hour trips, as long as there isn't one big-boned person in the group.  My wife and I add up to 300 lbs, and our couple friends add up to 300 lbs, so that makes figuring W&B easy on trips   that's 40 gal fuel and 50 lbs of luggage.  A nice weekend trip.  Unfortunately, one bigger person makes that impossible.

Getting in the plane is tricky.   The strict boarding order is:

• Pilot
• Rear left
• Rear right
• Passenger

Disembarking is the reverse.  Any deviation from that strict order is guaranteed to result in bruised shins, compressed spines and kneed groins 

Once in, everybody is pretty comfortable, even with our friends being over 6' (yes, they're both like fricking rails)...

Edited July 14, 2022 by jaylw314

[1980Mooney]

On 7/13/2022 at 11:45 AM, William A said:

the 1984 m20J red white and blue one just sold. what is the story on these MSE (turbo normalized m20Js?) gmax has a 1992 m20J MSE that looks like a good plane but im curious if the gas mileage (gph) and annuals would be similar to the regular non turbo J?

Here is the same plane when it was for sale in 2015-2016.  It points out that the plane has a useful load of only 882 lbs. (and since it is a late model J it is already at 2,900 Max GW.)  I am surprised that GMAX isn't more transparent and lists that prominently on the summary page.  After all the perspective buyer is going to figure it out eventually and there is no way to sugar coat it or make it go away.

N9139Z | 1992 MOONEY M20J on Aircraft.com

https://www.gmaxamericanaircraft.com/inventory/?/listing/for-sale/214133937/1992-mooney-m20j-mse-piston-single-aircraft?dlr=1&dscompanyid=6946&settingscrmid=614667

I can see that there have been a few updates on avionics (Avidyne IFD- 540 with remote transponder in place of old Garmin GNS 530W, removed CD player, 2 G-5s, moved the HSI, new Garmin GMA340 Audio Panel, )  But same autopilot and HSI driving it, same stormscope, same GNS430W, etc.  The vacuum pump/instruments remain so there is no meaningful weight reduction.

So if you fill the tanks (64 gal x 6 = 384 lbs) that leaves you with 498 lbs. for all people, luggage, flight bag, hat rack crap, food/drinks, and since this is turbo normalized dont forget the portable oxygen cylinder(s).  etc.  If the average male fully clothed is 200 lb and ave female 170 lbs then that leaves you with a whopping 128 lbs for the passengers in the back seat and luggage, flight bag, O2 cylinder, etc.

Bottom line - you are not flying this plane long distance with the seats filled unless you and your family is very small.  And definitely not when they grow.  This is more like a 3 person plane.  Maybe only 2 if you are big and taking a long trip.  Alternatively, you can fill to only 30 gallons and add a person - and limit yourself to 2 hour trips with VFR reserve.  Or you take no luggage and ship ahead (bus or Fedex)  as someone suggested (sounds like a complete pain and likely disaster for not showing up)

Aviation is a compromise - A balancing act of speed, size, useful load, ceiling and range.  And EVERYBODY lies about their weight.  Bring a bathroom scale sometime when loading for a revealing experience.

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by 1980Mooney

[hubcap]

My wife and I fly an average of 3 to 4 hour trips. In my K model we typically fly in the mid-teens. I fly LOP at 165-170Kts TAS on about 9-1/2 gallons / hr. My useful load allows two 200 lbs people, full fuel (76gal) and 130lbs of baggage. If there is a better cross country plane, I am unaware of what it may be. It is not a good platform for $100 hamburgers. The J is much better suited for that IMO. I personally would not go back to a NA aircraft. I appreciate the performance of the turbo and flying at 15000’ in the summer is far more pleasant than 8000’. 

[ArtVandelay]

I often fly above 10k, the J will take longer to get there, but it will cruise 150 kts at 14k. Not as fast as a K, but quick enough to make 600 nm trips in 4 hours.