How do you go around in a Mooney?

[EricJ]

There must be some differences between Mooneys, because there are differing reports of "climbs fine with the gear down" and not.    My airplane doesn't climb worth crap with the gear down, and I've heard others say similar.   Then you hear, "they all climb fine with the gear down". 

Mine climbs like crazy with the gear up, so I don't think it's a problem with engine power.

 

[midlifeflyer]

3 minutes ago, EricJ said:

"climbs fine with the gear down"

Can't speak for anyone else but all that means to me in context is, "the airplane will climb well enough with the gear down for the initial stage of a go-around that you don't need to rush the gear retraction," not, "it has almost the same rate of climb with the gear as without."

[A64Pilot]

Of course they climb better cleaned up, or all the expense and complexity, weight etc for retracts would be foolish.

I fly pretty much at sea level, by climbs fine with gear and flaps at full I mean that I could climb at a safe angle, I’m certain that I could fly a full pattern and approach at gross weight and flaps full and gear down. I’ve never measured but I bet it’s climbing pretty close to 500 FPM, Next time I fly I’ll look to see. My 140 by contrast won’t often make 500 FPM with full fuel and two adults, likely closer to 300 FPM. Heavily loaded Ag plane, maybe 200?

However I’m used to flying heavy aircraft that are somewhat power limited, crop dusters and helicopters that can barely hover, and my little C-140 is no hot rod either, so climbs fine is relative.

‘I’m sure you guys with 300 or more HP would consider mine a dog, even cleaned up, much less dirty.

I fly off of either 3700 grass or 2500 grass with trees on each end, and have no problem going around there, so 5,000 paved has to be easier.

[ArtVandelay]

Go around should not be difficult. I apologize for.being unable (yet) to name this video…

I think it depends on when you initiate it, yours was easier because you were 25’ off the ground, so you still had plenty of speed and stability. Of course you showed good judgment to abort the landing early.
The most difficult is when you just above the runway, it’s so tantalizingly close, and you’re close to a stall.
As soon as I have arrested the climb with throttle, the gear is coming up, immediately after going full throttle.

[carusoam]

+1 for relativity….

180hp, gear down, near fully loaded… climbs fine…. Enough to get cleaned up and continue flying….

310hp, gear down, lightly loaded… climbs fine… Enough you might forget to bring the gear up…. 
 

It’s that time of year to discuss DA at the same time….

Best regards,

-a-

[Shadrach]

On 4/15/2022 at 10:11 AM, Boilermonkey said:

Power, push, trim while maintaining coordination and directional control.   Positive rate, then gear up, then flaps to T/O, then fully up.   At some point during/after gear up communicate.

This^^^^* Which was not an option.

 

incidentally, my plane climbs fine with everything hanging out though all bets are off in a hot, high DA situation. 
One must adjust speeds for climbing dirty. You’re going to be very disappointed if you try to use cruise climb or Vy. I can eek out ~1000fpm with the gear down but have to do it at 70KIAS. Not great for cooling but fine for the short term if in a pinch.

[Shadrach]

On 4/16/2022 at 1:08 PM, EricJ said:

There must be some differences between Mooneys, because there are differing reports of "climbs fine with the gear down" and not.    My airplane doesn't climb worth crap with the gear down, and I've heard others say similar.   Then you hear, "they all climb fine with the gear down". 

Mine climbs like crazy with the gear up, so I don't think it's a problem with engine power.

 

You’re likely not pitching for the right speed. The the gear down a J model is going to struggle to hit 120kias in level flight. Most of us cruise climb ~105. You must pitch for a much slower speed if you want to see reasonable climb performance.  Try climbing at 85KIAS or less, I think you’ll find it climbs just fine.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Shadrach

[EricJ]

14 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

You’re likely not pitching for the right speed. The the gear down a J model is going to struggle to hit 120kias in level flight. Most of its cruise climb ~105. You must pitch for a much slower speed if you want to see reasonable climb performance.  Try climbing at 85KIAS or less, I think you’ll find it climbs just fine.

I flew home once with the gear down after an electrical failure.   It just didn't want to climb very much at all, and I needed to clear terrain.   Vy, cruise climb, they all pretty much sucked.   It climbed, just not very well.

Edited April 16, 2022 by EricJ

[Shadrach]

On 4/16/2022 at 5:09 PM, EricJ said:

I flew home once with the gear down after an electrical failure.   It just didn't want to climb very much at all, and I needed to clear terrain.   Vy, cruise climb, they all pretty much sucked.   It climbed, just not very well.

We fly the same airframe and PP but yours is cleaner. I don’t know exacltly how much climb I give up with the gear down, but I would guess 20-25%.  I’ve only done it as an experiment but I shoot for 80MIAS. A lot of people will not be comfortable flying that slow, balls to the wall with the pitch attitude required.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Shadrach

[midlifeflyer]

3 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I’ve only done it as an experiment but I shoot for 80MIAS. A lot of people will not be comfortable flying that slow

I think you're right but I never understood why.  

[Shadrach]

58 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

I think you're right but I never understood why.  

Nor I but for whatever reason, many of the Mooney pilots I’ve met never get comfortable with operations on the low speed portion of the performance envelope. Does not correlate to time in my experience. I know two Mooney porpoise to prop strike incidents on our field. One was a former Naval Aviator and the other an ATP.

Then again, students at the flight school are taught to fly base leg at 2.4*Vso in C172s.

[Hank]

You have to be comfortable with slow flight, even though the FAA now seems uncomfortable with it. I surprised a CFI on a BFR once by flying along with the stall warning chirping on and off while changing direction as he indicated. 

Slow below 125 mph, drop Takeoff Flaps. Downwind is at 90 mph, 1000 agl; drop gear abeam intended point of landing, slightly retard throttle. Turn Base at 90 mph, runway 45° behind my shoulder, ~800 agl. Turn final ~500 agl, roll wings level at 85 mph, slowing to 75 mph minus 5 mph per 300 lb below gross (plus one half of the wind gust above steady value), adjust throttle and flaps as needed to maintain aim point; trim for hands off the yoke. Throttle to idle when the field is made, keep a little power in if gusty or strong crosswind. You can't do this and land smoothly on a 3000' field if you aren't comfortable flying slowly.

I did a go around above because the winds were strong and very gusty, and > 45° from the right, on a 3000' field with open approaches. It was rough and bouncy, I left a little too much power in and was a little high and fast. Try again!

[midlifeflyer]

7 hours ago, Hank said:

You have to be comfortable with slow flight, even though the FAA now seems uncomfortable with it.

The FAA is comfortable with slow flight. But it seems just not with learning that warning signals should be ignored.

But I agree with your main point. The speeds we are talking about in the initial go-around with the gear down aren't even close to the "new" FAA slow flight, let alone a stall, but many pilots seem deathly afraid of it. 

Stalls and slow flight are necessary recurrent training items. Even if only imminent and non-chirping, they are so much closer to the edge than a simple climb out with the gear down. Realizing how much further they can go, without even getting a warning sign, can help.

Funny... my last unintentional go-around was somewhat like yours. I hadn't flown it for a year and completely mismanaged a gusty crosswind approach in an Ovation. I did the "scariest" Ovation go-around: from idle to full power after touching the runway. 

[A64Pilot]

10 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

I think you're right but I never understood why.  

There is a formula for it but not being a math guy I can’t quote it, but it amounts to drag not increasing linearly with speed. Try to climb at normal speed and a whole lot of your excess power is eaten up overcoming drag with gear and flaps down, so you slow to gain that excess power back. The wing is less efficient at lower speed, but the decrease in drag is greater.

Basically you climb like a 172.

Oh and flaps down wash out the wing, meaning being down almost guarantees the stall if your even close to being in trim will begin inboard and slowly spread outboard, of course you want to avoid tip stalls and flaps help that.

But not being comfortable with go-arounds are what causes a lot of Mooney accidents in my opinion, proposing for instance, it’s not usually destructive until the third bounce, so why not go around on the first, or certainly by the second? Some do of course and don’t have a prop strike and we don’t hear about those incidents, but landing long and going off of the runway, or landing short, why didn’t they just go-around?

I think it’s because they aren’t comfortable doing so is why, they haven’t practiced the maneuver enough to be comfortable.

Edited April 17, 2022 by A64Pilot

[Fly Boomer]

9 hours ago, Shadrach said:

taught to fly base leg at 2.4*Vso in C172s

Wide Open Throttle?

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Fly Boomer said:

Wide Open Throttle?

Good catch.  I plugged in the wrong number for Vso. Flight school policy is (or was until recently) 80KIAS until established on final. That’s nearly 1.8Vso at max gross. I think it’s bad SOP, but it certainly increases margins with regards to stalls in the pattern. However I think it kicks the airmanship can down the road. That 172 pilot then gets a Mooney and must learn the airspeed discipline that was not received in primary training.

[Fly Boomer]

12 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Flight school policy is (or was until recently) 80KIAS

In general, I'm in favor of teaching the numbers.  That wasn't part of my training -- more focus on looking out the window, and seat of the pants.  That said, if the wrong numbers are being taught, it's not helpful then or later.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Fly Boomer said:

In general, I'm in favor of teaching the numbers.  That wasn't part of my training -- more focus on looking out the window, and seat of the pants.  That said, if the wrong numbers are being taught, it's not helpful then or later.

Sure. In my training I was forced to do many patterns with no ASI. I also did many night landings without a landing light. However, one must learn the visual and tactile feedback within the context of the proper speeds and pitch to have a foundation to draw upon.  

[BobbyH]

4 hours ago, Shadrach said:

That 172 pilot then gets a Mooney and must learn the airspeed discipline that was not received in primary training.

@Shadrach, you are correct in more ways than one.  I transitioned from a 60' C-175 Skylark to the 66' M20E and had to discipline myself all over again to get my speeds correct.  The huge "barn door" flaps on the Skylark enabled me to be lazy on my approaches and drop into many strips without worrying about airspeed.  The Mooney's laminar flow wings just love to keep flying.  I appreciate that very much and believe it is making me a better pilot.  Now my challenge is to consistently get smooth landings within 1200' to full stop.  (Used to be 700' in the Skylark)  The more I fly the Mooney, the more I love it.

Bob

[Shadrach]

30 minutes ago, BobbyH said:

@Shadrach, you are correct in more ways than one.  I transitioned from a 60' C-175 Skylark to the 66' M20E and had to discipline myself all over again to get my speeds correct.  The huge "barn door" flaps on the Skylark enabled me to be lazy on my approaches and drop into many strips without worrying about airspeed.  The Mooney's laminar flow wings just love to keep flying.  I appreciate that very much and believe it is making me a better pilot.  Now my challenge is to consistently get smooth landings within 1200' to full stop.  (Used to be 700' in the Skylark)  The more I fly the Mooney, the more I love it.

Bob

Bob, you’re more the rule than the exception. It’s a common theme. You’re on the right track. I frequently talk to folks transitioning to Mooneys and the numbers used are way off. 80KIAS over the threshold is almost always too fast in any Mooney but there are new owners using those speeds in short and mid bodies with instructors on board.

[aviatoreb]

This discussion reminds me of this go around gone bad around here a few years ago.  It was a Mooney M20F and I know the owner had just completed transition training and had made his first long trip to here from Virginia.  He had come to KPTD for a day where I actually saw the accident plane the day before the accident, but I did not see the people.  It was the owner, and two students one of which was his kid, and their friend, students at Clarkson University where I teach, but I did not know them.  

The first I heard of it was during a flight I was making to Boulder Colorado, and all of a sudden my phone lit up with several friends checking in to see if it was me when they heard a Mooney had crashed in Lake Placid right near here.

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2014/07/obituary-for-reed-robert-phillips.html

Very tragic.  3 souls lost.

So you see it was a go around gone bad.  If trimmed back too much, then adding full power, we know that a Mooney likes to start to climb strongly nose up, too much nose up that IMMEDIATE forceful pushing on the yoke is called for.  I know that immediate take off power is what is taught in many planes like Cessna 172, etc, because I was taught the same thing, but careful and stay aware - So all of you folks calling for immediate full power, be used to paying attention and be ready to push the yoke just in case,

Edited April 17, 2022 by aviatoreb

[jaylw314]

10 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

So you see it was a go around gone bad.  If trimmed back too much, then adding full power, we know that a Mooney likes to start to climb strongly nose up, too much nose up that IMMEDIATE forceful pushing on the yoke is called for.  I know that immediate take off power is what is taught in many planes like Cessna 172, etc, because I was taught the same thing, but careful and stay aware - So all of you folks calling for immediate full power, be used to paying attention and be ready to push the yoke just in case,

If you're right handed, it's a good way to bulk up your left arm so the two sides are more even 

[A64Pilot]

Don’t get lazy and trim full up on landing, trim about where you do for takeoff, you will have to pull up some to flare, but not much. Go out and try it. 

Raymond Maule used to teach full up trim to land a Maule, it made you slow down, and I did as was trained, one day I did a practice go-around. You think a Mooney pulls up hard, try a Maule with an IO-540, I never trimmed up full again

 

 I keep saying go out and try it, but ease into this stuff. If your uncomfortable at all do it at altitude first, not much to hit up there.

Edited April 17, 2022 by A64Pilot

[jetdriven]

That Lake Placid accident sounds a lot like a distracted pilot who has a sloppy go around and then tried to avoid another airplane coming from the other direction.

if you don’t trim the airplane full nose up, the go-around control forces are easy to manage on a mid body Mooney. If you like to get into the flare and hold the trim till it hits the up stop it makes a nice landing as well, but it’s bad technique and then people are advocating for more bad technique to compensate for this bad technique. 

[Cruiser]

All of this good advice points to a single issue that most pilots fail on..... PRACTICE. 
These kind of accidents are much less likely if pilots stay proficient in emergency procedures.