Does a M20K cost over $300/hour?

[dzeleski]

14 hours ago, Hank said:

Hangar, oxygen, oil changes, GPS data and fuel appear high to me. $7US/gallon? 

Hangar rates vary tremendously by location. 1K will buy an awful lot of oxygen, a lot more than 80 hours worth. I change my own oil every 50 hours, costs about $100. My GPS data is ~$400/year. And $7 fuel would probably put a For Sale sign in the window . . . .

My hangar is 8500 a year. Depending on location that hangar cost is a reasonable middle ground for an estimate.

Depending on equipment (number of devices) and if you want on screen charts it could easily be 1k in subs or more. Fore Flight $300 + Avidyne 440 full USA subscription $450 + Jepp charts $200 is 950 a year.

[Hank]

20 minutes ago, dzeleski said:

Depending on equipment (number of devices) and if you want on screen charts it could easily be 1k in subs or more. Fore Flight $300 + Avidyne 440 full USA subscription $450 + Jepp charts $200 is 950 a year.

No Foreflighr. Avare = $0, free app, free sectionals, free Low Enroutes, free georeferenced Approach Plates, free georeferenced airport diagrams, automatic switch upon landing. But the UI isn't as good.

G430W = ~400 this year.

No Jepp--see Avare above. Or use FlightPlan Go, free from Flight Aware.

Yeah, I guess I'm a CB. Plus FF requires apple, and I'm not a fan of those . . . .

[Ozz]

@JohnZ Definitely sounds like we are in the same boat/plane glad to hear I'm thinking about this in the right way. I think a $100 Fahrvergnügen budget seems reasonable. 

My budget is very roughly $200,000 but the less I spend on the initial purchase the more I can spend on avionics and polishing things up. I think my ideal situation would be to spend $150,000 on the purchase and $50,000 on upgrades (not including the engine). I have started to look at what's available and these prices seem a bit elevated. Does anything in the attached seem like a reasonable (deal that I should explore further? 

 

 

[Niko182]

17 hours ago, Ozz said:

Cost of Capital (I could keep this money in the stock market or buy a property) = $150,000 * 5% = $7,500 / 80 hours = $94 / hour

I feel like if you're looking it from this perspective, aircraft ownership isnt really a great idea.

[PJClark]

hahahahahaha!

When I started flying again in 2018 after a 13 year hiaitus I got checked out in an SR22 Avidyne airplane which I could rent wet for $255 an hour.

My M20K Rocket, bought in May 2019, costs me at least $400 an hour if I were to try to do what you just did.  I kinda did at one point...but then as most folks here have said: that's the wrong question.  there's the fixed vs variable cost part; there's the value part--right now these airplanes are appreciating--but you're even asking yourself this question, and posting on Mooneyspace, because, well, deep down you already really, really want to own an M20K.

Just embrace that thing. It's a dumb financial decision unless it's going to make you money in your business, and pobably it isn't.   If you're at a point in your life where you can afford what you want--don't settle for a 182 because it's cheaper. You can't take it with you (and you don't have to leave it ALL to your kids--they won't know the difference). AND--none of us can fly forever.  TIME is money, too!

Live.  Buy a Mooney. Love it.

[aviatoreb]

13 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Finally ignore cost of capital, if you think in those terms, a vehicle, a boat, a plane, clothes, fancy phone/tablet, and other things stop being fun toys…life is meant to be enjoyed and you can’t take it with you.

I agree completely.  I own a bunch of stupid stuff.  The Mooney is one of them.  If I hadn’t bought a stupid expensive Mooney because I thought it was neat, I would have gotten something else that was very expensive because I thought it was neat.  Some of those things as useful as a door stop, pen collection, coin collection, collectors gun collection, naming some of the things my dad had that cost 3 or 4 times as much as my Mooney.

hourly cost is direct cost for me.  And … btw I don’t pay much attention other than the fuel bill when I put my credit card in.

[aviatoreb]

Don’t settle for a 182 because it is cheaper.

A vespa is even cheaper still!

[Skates97]

19 hours ago, Ozz said:

As you mentioned, definitely going down this path for the added flexibility, the "intangibles" and to fly a Mooney. Just was hoping to have some ability to justify this financially to my bride. @KSMooniac@bluehighwayflyer @JoeM

 

You can't justify the cost financially. However, after owning it for a time she will likely justify it to herself. Our typical long trips are to Salt Lake (500NM) and Phoenix (300NM). My wife makes more trips than I do to Salt Lake to see the grandkids because somebody (me) has to stay home and work to pay for it.  Almost every time she flies commercial (much more affordable than me flying us in the Mooney) she is telling me about something annoying with TSA, the airport, the person in the seat next to or behind her, etc... and it ends with "I wish you could have flown me instead." 

17 hours ago, Mooney in Oz said:

Above all, flying a Mooney is the most satisfying fun you can have with your clothes on 

If it is your own plane, do you have to keep your clothes on? 

[milotron]

Find me a nice Aerostar and I might be willing to sell mine....

Joking...kind of.

 

 

[exM20K]

@Ozz You're overthinking this.  Most all the candidate planes you're considering will have a Direct Operating Cost (DOC) of $150-$200 / hour - maybe higher in Canadia due to fuel costs, user fees, and socialism.

Fixed costs are what they are.  Higher hull value = higher insurance and oppty cost/debt service, but it doesn't really move the needle in DOC dollars.  Are you willing to spend $20-$30,000 per year on your flying?  That's really the only question you need to answer, and the choice of plane will nudge that number up or down a not-very-meaningful percentage.

If it flies, floats, or fornicates, it will always be cheaper to rent than own. But the rental experience is very different from the ownership one, as several have noted above in this thread. 

If you own a plane, it's very likely you'll fly more than 80 hours per year as the marginal hourly cost is much less significant when you're paying all those fixed costs anyway.  It's all rationalization anyway, but that's ok.

-dan

[Ozz]

Totally agree, the reason for doing the numbers was everything I read people were really low numbers i.e. <$20k for an overhaul, annuals of <$2,000, etc. which seemed so good I started to look at opportunities to acquire some flight schools... which I promptly stopped once I got to know the business better, haha. Spending the money on something of interest is totally reasonable, just like to know what to expect. Thanks everyone for all the insights, this has been super informative. Will keep you posted on what direction I end up going. Many thanks!

[Mooney in Oz]

2 hours ago, milotron said:

Find me a nice Aerostar and I might be willing to sell mine....

Recently I saw a 700P in original condition undergoing its annual. Piper factory built only 26 of these beauties.  

I flew the 601P years ago in my freight dog days. Best piston twin.

Still would not swap my Mooney.

[Mac80]

If I try to justify owning an airplane by economics I cannot. 

I never considered rentals or club planes as for me it restricts where, when, and what you can do.

My circumstance is road travel takes to long and wears one down. Looking down at the interstates and from 6,000 feet at 180 mph as straight as crow can fly who wants to drive.   Airline travel one must usually drive long hours to get to airport, airport parking,  and put up with circumstances that private pilots are not subject too. Except for long journeys I don’t want to spend my time for that either.

If you have the capability getting a charter it is the next best thing.  It is extraordinarily expensive.

You can justify it if it is needed for your life style if getting where you need or you want to go often is out of reach except by private plane.

If you have an ability and circumstances to rent or cost share and where you can use the plane to go you should probably do that and enjoy flying.

Piloting your own plane is a wonderful and liberating experience. 

 

 

 

[kortopates]

If your asking this question, airplane ownership is likely not for you. Renting should always be more cost effective than paying a premium to have a plane at our disposal to use 24/7 whenever we want and wherever we want. it’s cost significantly more for that freedom and not to have to share it with anyone else.

Also as mentioned, many of your cost are unrealistically low. But in just my opinion 80hrs a year makes owning quite expensive. I have a friend that has his 252 in a lease back to a club for $292/hr - just to add a data point.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[milotron]

The math becomes different if you are legitimately travelling for work or business development.  I can fly to a work site in 1.5 hours that takes 6 hours of driving each way. When my hourly chargeout rate is considered, this is a huge savings to me and the company and worth the costs.

 

My variable costs are about $0.67 per km ( we are metric...) and direct operating costs total $0.87 per km.  I get reimbursed from clients at $0.62 per km.  There is a modest loss on the disbursable expenses, but massive savings on the labour costs. We bid fixed fee jobs so Mooney makes us more competitive.

 

Private plane = time machine.

[carusoam]

… and on that note….   We move on to the next level…

Yes, Planes are expensive.  
 

But, there  are tons of reasons why people select the speed and the efficiency of the Mooney…

 

How does this plane get used?

 

My first M20C…

1) Low cost

2) Used instead of car travel

3) Monthly 2 X 5 hour drive so the grand kids could know their grand parents…

4) Realized quickly… seeing your grandparents only once a month… doesn’t really get the job done…

5) 10 hours in a car, for a whole weekend, to see your in laws…  your parents aren’t cool enough, to your wife, to endure a whole weekend with them…

6) Having the Mooney… flight time was 1.5hrs…

7) Arrive fresh as a daisy… ready to socialize with the family…

8) Somebody says something silly or out of line… it isn’t a terrible long silent ride in the car back home for hours…

9) Get your Second in Command up to speed with flight planning… why you may leave early, or stay later, based on the weather…

10) Oddly some people go on the road, without a plan for bad weather… and she may be married to you!  

11) We quickly got to the level… of visiting more often than monthly… and might just show up for lunch… grand parents like pizza with grandkids…

12) XMas required delivering presents to the grandparents house… kind of hard to hide all that from growing kids… where’s the surprise if you goof it up?

13) Flying up the day before, drop off all the goodies… back the same day… fly up the next day for the official visit, the kids have no idea what you did the day before… 

14) No family members like 5 hour car rides in a Firebird… without WiFi… or iPads… or cell phones.

15) Family members love a good headset… and can be asleep before the throttle gets pushed in all the way…

16) they usually wake up with all of the changes nearing the airport…  they are now fresh as a daisy for a visit…   

17) Getting a more better airframe might save 15minutes each flight…  M20R vs. M20C…  or M20K…

18) Work is a drag…

You get two days each week to do something… 

Get a Mooney, go do something hundreds of miles away… fly back in time for Monday morning meetings…

For speed and efficiency…

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

[sleeper-319]

50 minutes ago, carusoam said:

18) Work is a drag…

I’ve got a pretty awesome job, but yeah… like that old song goes, I’d love to work at nothin all day. 

#18. Sigh.  

[1980Mooney]

On 8/24/2021 at 10:27 PM, Ozz said:

... Just was hoping to have some ability to justify this financially to my bride. ...

 

3 hours ago, exM20K said:

.. You're overthinking this. .. Are you willing to spend $20-$30,000 per year on your flying?  That's really the only question you need to answer,..

If you own a plane, it's very likely you'll fly more than 80 hours per year ...

"... it's very likely you'll fly more than 80 hours per year"....or not.  Every situation is different.  You mention "bride" so you are embarking on a new family life of some kind. Some spouses are crazy about it, some support it, some tolerate and some hate it.  Sometimes the situation is supportive until first bad flight in terrible IFR.  And family and job demands sometimes get in the way of the best flying intentions as time goes by.

I don't want to get into Canadian Matrimonial law and Matrimonial property rights, but philosophically your new bride will be owning half and half of that $20-30K you spend every year on the plane is hers.  This is no longer an individual decision - it is a shared decision.  She may or may not feel that the plane is delivering that level of value equal to the spending.

You are right to include the opportunity cost or cost of capital.  It is like the cost of interest if you borrowed money to finance the plane entirely.  And that is because, after spending available funds on the plane, you may need to borrow more elsewhere to fund the acquisition of the home you and your bride want or maybe kids educations, etc (borrow an amount equal to the cash funds that you spent on the plane).

Some here in other topics/threads joke about keeping the plane and getting a divorce after unanticipated incidents and high costs..   Just remember that the pilots commenting here have either supportive/tolerant families or no families that influence their individual thinking and decision-making.  Those pilots/owners whose families did not support the spending, in general, are not commenting because they sold their planes and have no reason to spend time on this site. 

I suggest that you continue to rent for the time being.  See how your new bride takes to flying via General Aviation.  If she remains excited then maybe it makes sense to think about buying.

 

 

 

Edited August 26, 2021 by 1980Mooney

[hubcap]

For me personally, airplane ownership is much more than a mathematical equation. Economics are certainly a part of the decision-making process, but it's not all about which choice gives me the least expensive ownership per hour or per mile. I own an M20K and I really like it. I have put 150+ hours on it this year. It is like the old credit card commercial where they added up all the costs and determined the experience was "priceless".

Could I have enjoyed the experience in a C-182? Probably.....but I really enjoy my M20K.....it flies faster and higher and I like it a lot more than I would a C-182.

There are no wrong choices, but don't pass purely on the perceived economics.

[Will.iam]

On 8/25/2021 at 11:30 PM, Ozz said:

Totally agree, the reason for doing the numbers was everything I read people were really low numbers i.e. <$20k for an overhaul, annuals of <$2,000, etc. which seemed so good I started to look at opportunities to acquire some flight schools... which I promptly stopped once I got to know the business better, haha. Spending the money on something of interest is totally reasonable, just like to know what to expect. Thanks everyone for all the insights, this has been super informative. Will keep you posted on what direction I end up going. Many thanks!

Those numbers are in line with a Cessna 140.

[Browncbr1]

K model doesn’t make much sense to me for the fairly short trips in your mission.  Secondly, $1500 insurance on a $150k Hull isn’t going to happen..   thirdly, if your calculating cost of capital on $150k, then you should put it to work and let it pay for renting the 182.   It’s a little slower, but you are only doing short trips anyhow.    Or, go get a pimped out vintage 4 cylinder mooney for half the cost

[carusoam]

If we had to be serious…

80 hours  per year… isn’t close to make a financial judgement… way too many fixed costs to overcome with hours flown…

If you can rent it with the same freedom of owning it…. Who would get married? (To a plane)

The OP had a great thought experiment…

1) Rentals with freedom of ownership don’t exist…

2) Mooneys are way better than brand C…

3) If cost containment is that important… have a look at the partnerships around here…

4) Have a look at the rental Mooneys near by… how far away is that?

5) C182 is one step up from a C172 everyone learned to fly in the beginning…

6) The M20K is going to cost more… but, it is several steps above the trainer you learned to fly in…

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

[ArtVandelay]

If renting, don’t forget you pay a minimum number of hours per day to cover lost revenue while you have the plane , usually ~4 hours. So if you take a long weekend trip, that’s 1.5 hours one way, you’ll won’t pay for 3 hours hobbs time, you’ll pay 4 hours (per day) X 3 days, 12 hours. Once you start doing real cross country trips, you need to own.

[Will.iam]

Or don’t stay too long and run out your welcome. Awe honey I would love to stay at your mother’s one more night but the rental would charge us 4 hours of time we didn’t use for flying.