Value impact - hard landing and prop strike

[krb5137]

Hello everyone!  
 

My search for an acclaim continues. There is one for sale (‘08) that has a damage history. It was involved in a hard landing five years ago repaired by LASAR (main gear replaced and repair to wing/flap).  Then last year a (seemingly minor) prop strike while on the ground that resulted in a tear down of the engine and replacement of the prop. 
 

Assuming the repairs were performed responsibly and the plane is in good condition, how do these kinds of records impact value?  I’m most familiar with the collector car world where damage is a huge hit on value. Do the same rules apply here or is the plane viewed more as a functional item that, if repaired properly, retains its value? 

 

Thanks again for any thoughts you can muster. Very much appreciated. 
 

Best,

Richard

[steingar]

Were it repaired by LASAR I would have no problem at all buying it.  Heck, my airplane had a prop strike from a hard landing and is still soldiering on just fine.  Well, less than fine, it failed a mag test.  But that's another story...

[ArtVandelay]

I would have a very thorough PPI, checking the entire spar.
It definitely lowers the value compared to NDH plane, how much only the market can say.

[Yetti]

How hard and how many hours has it flown since.  How many inspections has it gone through.  What was the quality of the repairs since it was a recent hit.

[A64Pilot]

What I have told people over the years is don’t be afraid of what’s in the logbook, be afraid of what isn’t.

Almost always if it’s in the logbook that’s a good sign, it’s a sign of someone who maintains their aircraft responsibly and ethically, it’s when you find evidence of past repairs that aren’t logged that I advise people to walk. That’s more common than we may want to think.

‘By all means get the CD of 337’s from the FAA as a part of the inspection.

From an airworthiness and safety perspective there is no concern, properly repaired it’s literally as good as new.

However there is a hit on value, and for that reason damage history airplanes can be a great buy, especially if you plan on keeping the aircraft for a long time as the dip in value decreases with age. 

Often a recently prop struck airplane for example can be a great buy, first you get it discounted, but assuming the Lycoming SB was followed and all required parts were replaced, that breathes many more hours into the engine as almost all wear items were replaced, then of course you most likely get a new prop, and you pay less than you would have with an old engine and prop.

Price the airplane knowing it has history, just don’t pay full value.

Edited August 16, 2021 by A64Pilot

[Davidv]

One thing to consider - while you may not have a problem with the damage, you can't say the same about the person you may eventually sell it to.  We're in a hot airplane market at the moment, if it cools trying to sell a damaged aircraft will be just a little bit harder.  Think about that when you make your offer.

[EricJ]

Condition and airworthiness are far more important than damage history.    An airplane that has flown regularly is more desirable than one that has sat for a long time, and if they've been flying for 30+ years the likelihood of having no damage is small.   Basically, they've all been damaged is a good working assumption, and if the repair quality was good it's not an issue.

An IRAN after a prop strike can be a good thing.   I bought my airplane with 30 hours on it since a prop strike and a teardown, and it got priced as though the engine had 1500 hours on it, but it had just been reconditioned via the teardown, which requires all new bearings in the bottom end, etc.   You're pretty much getting a reconditioned engine for free the way the pricing usually gets set because people have been conditioned to set price via TSMOH.

So it sounds like potentially a good opportunity.  LASAR is very reputable for doing repairs.

 

 

 

[PT20J]

If it passed inspection and the repairs were done properly and I liked it, I’d just negotiate the best price I could. In this market, if you don’t take it, someone else will snap it up. 

Skip

[krb5137]

2 hours ago, Yetti said:

How hard and how many hours has it flown since.  How many inspections has it gone through.  What was the quality of the repairs since it was a recent hit.

The hard landing incident occurred 5-6 years ago.  All repair work was performed by LASAR, who I know has a sterling reputation.  Seems like a significant bump that bent the landing gear and somehow involved the wing.  This work was performed by LASAR.

The prop strike was more recent--it occurred last year when the operator fired up the engine and the prop hit the tow bar.  Engine was torn apart and checked.  The engine work was performed by Foster Aircraft Maintenance in Canada.

Edited August 16, 2021 by krb5137

[krb5137]

1 hour ago, 1980Mooney said:

This article on Damage History and resale value by Mike Busch is 8 years old but still applies.   

https://resources.savvyaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/articles_eaa/EAA_2013-12_damage-history.pdf

He doesn't see a prop strike as a problem - rather an "opportunity".  Now the hard landing with main gear and wing damage is a different matter.  Historically Mooney owners have considered the wing to be nearly indestructible.  A repair of that magnitude by such a reputable shop (LASAR) would ding value some but would not hurt sellability in a major way. Buyers would remain confident in the integrity of the wing. Some think no more than 5% hit to value - see https://mooneyspace.com/topic/10003-buying-aircraft-with-damage-history-good-idea-bad-idea/

However the recent tragic crash of a seemingly pristine Bravo (N9156Z) in which most believe that the wing spar failed in the air is a real wildcard that won't play out for a year or two.  After all the entire force of the hard landing of this Acclaim was transmitted to the wing spar (either in the horizontal or twisting from braking/sliding depending on the landing). If in fact the wing spar of the Bravo did fail and if it leads to a wing AD on long body Mooney's then I think more buyers will pass on a plane with any damage history near or connected to the wing spar in the future. You will bear the the risk that this will become a "huge hit on value" in the future.  On the other hand if, in two years, the NTSB concludes that the Bravo spar did not fail until contact with the ground (that it is just a video artifact) then the wing damage to this Acclaim will be just another minor damage event.

From Mooney spar design - Page 5 - General Mooney Talk - Mooneyspace.com - A community for Mooney aircraft owners and enthusiasts

Just my opinion.

 

Thanks for the helpful articles - I'll read through them today.

[Greg Ellis]

52 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

Man...that has to be one of the worst feelings in the world.....only slightly worse than when your spouse responds that it is time to sell the money pit.

That's why I got a divorce...

[bradp]

If you wish to pursue I’d take it to another reputable MSC (top gun if you’re out west) to do a PPI (? Turn into annual) with special focus on repairs and and structural inspection.  

[Guest]

3 hours ago, krb5137 said:

The hard landing incident occurred 5-6 years ago.  All repair work was performed by LASAR, who I know has a sterling reputation.  Seems like a significant bump that bent the landing gear and somehow involved the wing.  This work was performed by LASAR.

The prop strike was more recent--it occurred last year when the operator fired up the engine and the prop hit the tow bar.  Engine was torn apart and checked.  The engine work was performed by Foster Aircraft Maintenance in Canada.

I thought that Fosters did the work, but Pro Aero in BC did the engine inspection/repair?

Clarence

[steingar]

Our airplanes are getting old, lots got old a long time ago.  I truly wonder how many are without damage history.

 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, bradp said:

If you wish to pursue I’d take it to another reputable MSC (top gun if you’re out west) to do a PPI (? Turn into annual) with special focus on repairs and and structural inspection.  

The plane is in Calgary Alberta, a long way from California for a PPI.

Clarence

[bradp]

29 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

The plane is in Calgary Alberta, a long way from California for a PPI.

Clarence

If only there was a Mooney doctor up north….

[Schllc]

I looked at that one. Mid time engine with two prop strikes and the hard landing was severe enough to push the gear through the top of the wing. 
This on top of the hassle with import, put me in a price range that didn’t really jive with the ask. 
I absolutely believe the repair can be made to restore the plane, but it’s an uphill battle when you will go to sell, so I believe you should pay accordingly. 
I was about 25-30% off of ask. 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, bradp said:

If only there was a Mooney doctor up north….

There is one, but he’s even further away than California is .

Clarence

[A64Pilot]

20 hours ago, steingar said:

Our airplanes are getting old, lots got old a long time ago.  I truly wonder how many are without damage history.

 

There is a lot of truth to that statement.

I smile every time I see a 70+ yr old C-140 advertised as no damage history. I have one, but for some reason one of the wings was replaced 50 or so years ago 

If your buying, very often damage repair results in a 337, and while logbooks can be “managed”, 337’s are sent to the FAA and are supposedly kept forever, and are easily obtainable.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

I smile every time I see a 70+ yr old C-140 advertised as no damage history. I have one, but for some reason one of the wings was replaced 50 or so years ago 

If your buying, very often damage repair results in a 337, and while logbooks can be “managed”, 337’s are sent to the FAA and are supposedly kept forever, and are easily obtainable.

If the replacement wing has no repaired damage in it, then there is no damage history to the plane from the old wing. If something happened, and the affected part(s) are removed from the airplane and replaced with new, is there any "history" for future owners to be aware of and watch? No . . . . The devil is in the details. If damage is repaired, there is history right there on the airframe, and the repair can be monitored over time to make sure that it is holding up. What is there to monitor over time with a new wing, that's any different from the older wing on the other side?

The OP is asking about a plane with damage history to the gear and the wings. The gear was replaced, the wing / flap was repaired. How were the repairs done, and are the repairs holding up? That's the damage history to watch for. Also, since the gear was replaced, it should be monitored to make sure nothing strange is happening due to damage in the wing that it's attached to.

[bradp]

On 8/16/2021 at 3:44 PM, Schllc said:

I looked at that one. Mid time engine with two prop strikes and the hard landing was severe enough to push the gear through the top of the wing. 
This on top of the hassle with import, put me in a price range that didn’t really jive with the ask. 
I absolutely believe the repair can be made to restore the plane, but it’s an uphill battle when you will go to sell, so I believe you should pay accordingly. 
I was about 25-30% off of ask. 

Doc how is a crumpled dented and torn upper skin even airworthy?  Doesn’t that affect both the structure of the wing and the airflow over it? 
 

I also suppose if the aircraft has been subject to enough abuse to push a MLG skyward, think of all those other abusive landings that didn’t result in a structural repair.  

[Guest]

Here is a little more history.

Clarence 

 

[LANCECASPER]

On 8/16/2021 at 10:42 AM, krb5137 said:

The hard landing incident occurred 5-6 years ago.  All repair work was performed by LASAR, who I know has a sterling reputation.  Seems like a significant bump that bent the landing gear and somehow involved the wing.  This work was performed by LASAR.

The prop strike was more recent--it occurred last year when the operator fired up the engine and the prop hit the tow bar.  Engine was torn apart and checked.  The engine work was performed by Foster Aircraft Maintenance in Canada.

I would see if they have pictures of the damage before the repair, might help to understand the extent of the damage.

[PT20J]

I once saw a M20C stall and “land” flat from about 20’ AGL. (This was on takeoff at Mammoth Lakes CA with a strong, gusty south wind which creates a nasty midfield windshear).

It taxied back to the ramp under its own power and everyone on board was shaken, but OK. The prop tips were curled and both main gear doors were bent out 90 degrees. But, there was no visible damage to the wings or fuselage. 

Point being that you have to hit really hard to do as much damage as was apparently done to this airplane. Of course, this airplane was heavier which might make it more vulnerable.

Skip

[ArtVandelay]

I once saw a M20C stall and “land” flat from about 20’ AGL. (This was on takeoff at Mammoth Lakes CA with a strong, gusty south wind which creates a nasty midfield windshear).
It taxied back to the ramp under its own power and everyone on board was shaken, but OK. The prop tips were curled and both main gear doors were bent out 90 degrees. But, there was no visible damage to the wings or fuselage. 
Point being that you have to hit really hard to do as much damage as was apparently done to this airplane. Of course, this airplane was heavier which might make it more vulnerable.
Skip

The C weighs 50% less than a long body. Long bodies are pushing the limits of puck landing gear design.