I have a few questions for people with more experience than me.

[Daniel.Arbre]

Hello everyone, 

My name is Daniel and I am new to this forum. 
I am in training to become a professional pilot. 
And I’ll be completing my program in a few months. It took a long time to convince my wife but I decided not to pursue CFI courses but rather purchase my own plane for hour building.
I have a few questions for people with more experience than me. 

purpose: Hour building 1,200 hours (I have 300) 
Budget: $180K
Model: Mooney M20 
Year: 1980-1999

Question 1: I saw there are many different models for Mooney M20. Which has the best fuel efficiency?
I found many different answers when searching online but I want to know if you have personal experience.

Question 2: I heard there are models with over 200-300 HP but I want to know if there are any problems with 200 HP or if its fine. 
I think one or two people will be flying the plane and don’t care about speed. I bought a used 28ft boat before but it didn’t plane on the water so had a difficult time with this in the past. 

Question 3: I understand there are many variables but how much engine overhaul at TBO should I expect?

Question 4: I’ve thought about purchasing a 1980 model or around that year and upgrade the avionics system and paint. Is there a big difference in the frame and  basic system between model 1980 or similar OR models made after 1990s? In my personal opinion, I think there were be a lot of technology difference but I’m not sure about planes.

I appreciate your help in advance. 

Edited August 9, 2021 by Daniel.Arbre

[ilovecornfields]

I apologize for the stupid question, but if you don’t care how fast it is and your only purpose is “hour building” have you considered a 152? It’s going to be a lot cheaper than a Mooney.

On the other hand, if you want an awesome, fast airplane to travel places then you’re looking in the right place.

[Will.iam]

The reason why so many people go the CFI route is that it pays you while you build hours, same reason to go the military pilot route.  You can get the 1200 hours paying your own way but then you are out that money when you have the 1200 hours. There are cheaper ways to build hours than with a fast complex airplane. Now if your mission is to go places quickly on as little of fuel as possible then a mooney will fit nicely for you. 

[Hank]

The E is the mpg king, and some have been updated nicely over the years. Some have hydraulic flaps and / or manual gear. Js are larger and more modern and carry a higher price. Either will do nicely for you.

Sure, a 152 will cost less to buy, but you can always reduce the throttle and fly a Mooney at 152 speed. Then again, you can push the throttle in and use a Mooney to travel, and gain valuable experience that will be applicable to your professional flying ambitions.

Most E models will top out at about half of your budget, but don't buy a J at that price level, it will need too much repair / modernization. 

[Guest]

A Mooney C model makes the most sense, lower price for almost everything involved.  Cheaper to buy, lower fuel burn, most reliable simple carbureted engine, because it’s a clean airframe, throttled back it will burn the same fuel as a 152 at the same speed, with the option of going way faster if you’re in a hurry.

Clarence

[Danb]

Like Doc mentioned a C makes the most sense, all frames a similar except the length, a C will get you 140+ knots on less than 10 GPH, manual gear which is the best especially regarding maintenance as is the lycoming 4 banger.with the money saved upgrade the panel to your needs

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Daniel!

I like your style.

Most people look at 200AMU and think what four year degree can I get with that dough..?

There are aviation colleges that do this kind of thing… but…

Damn the financial torpedos, full speed ahead!   (Full speed and Mooneys…. They go together…)

Why get bogged down in conversations of LOP vs. ROP… where at best, I’m only going to save a gallon or two in ops costs each hour…

For a great lesson on getting fitted with a perfect Mooney for your needs…

Find the G in GMax…. Jimmy Garrison is the king of Mooney airplane sales…

You can sit in various models of Mooney at GMax in TX… and possibly test fly each one that makes sense for your mission…

 

If by some chance, this isn’t what you meant….

Find Alex @Raptor05121who is steadily working up the ladder of being a pro pilot using his M20C to control costs, while building experience…   Now getting paid to fly somebody else’s turbine powered ship.

Pay extra attention to @M20Doc he knows the economics of all the various Mooney models down to their rivets… over time.

Pay super attention to @Danb because when it comes to money spent on Mooneys… Dan is the accountant that can track it all…

If having to pay your own way causes you to eat ramen noodles often…   Go M20C!

If you aren’t sure how the ramen noodles get re-stocked in the cabinet every week…   Go Acclaim!

I’m just a PP that started humbly with an M20C and upgraded after a decade….

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

[GeeBee]

More important reason to go the CFI route.

You never really understand something until you have to explain it and teach it. (Try and explain holding patterns and entries for instance)

You don't know how many ways to do something wrong, until you teach it.

You don't know why we do the things the way we do, until you see it done wrong.

[A64Pilot]

The more different aircraft you fly the more experience you will gain as they are all a little bit different.

Getting that CFI, or actually a CFII will get you into many different aircraft.

I didn’t go the CFI route myself, I had a rich Uncle pay for most of my way, paid for my A&P and my Commercial / Instrument.

But to do it on your own, somebody’s got to be rich, of course you may be.

180 HP Mooney’s are fine, and in my opinion a low HP airplane is better to train in as excessive HP can be a crutch, low HP teaches you to finesse things.

A fellow Army pilot friend bought a Piper Apache to build multi time when I was in the Army so he could seek a civilian job when his Army time was up, everything was fine until the first Annual and it was discovered that the engine cases had been incorrectly welded in the past and suddenly he need to buy two motors, and he didn’t have the money to do so. I’m not sure how that worked out, but an old Apache without motors is pretty much worthless.

If he had gone the CFiI route, even if he did it for free, he would have not had to face that financial crisis.

[Raptor05121]

My background: I bought my 1963 180hp Mooney M20D approximately 5 years ago with 80 hours total time. I'm now a 1,500 hour Captain flying Part 135 Cessna 208 Caravans for cargo, and as of today, just received a CJO for PSA Airlines as a FO on the CRJ series.

Owning a plane is such an invaluable experience to have. The costs will be higher, but the memories I have the last 6 years of traveling all over the country, meeting many new friends (some from here!) and just overall experience-building is going to only help you in the long-run. I did NOT go the CFI route, primarily because I was hired into survey as soon as I completed my commercial, but I still want my CFI so I can become a "Mooney CFI". The CFI ticket will help you in the long run with stuff like book knowledge that is needed when you make it to the commercial world. There are some things I consider myself deficient in while my peers excel at because they have years of FAR/AIM items memorized. But at the same time, us (owners) have the added benefit of more frequent experience, as well as more quality experience. For example, during my 135 Captain check ride, we were shooting approaches. ILS and GPS, autopilot and no autopilot. During the last part, my examiner said to me: "okay, lastly, I want to see what everyone has the most trouble with- the hand flown VOR-A approach". You should have seen the shit-eating grin I had on my face. He quickly realized it and asked: "why are you smiling like that?". My only reply: "hand-flown VORs are the only approaches I've been flying in my 1960s Mooney for the past 6 years". I'm trying to stay humble, but at the end of the ride he commented that "owning your plane has a definite advantage- your hand flying coordination is impeccable"

If you are trying to time-build, nothing is faster than doing aerial survey. I logged about ~140hrs/month in a 172. Pay sucks, but you're actually flying the airplane, to within tenths of a degree of heading, +/- tens of feet, and +/-10 kts for 5-8 hours a day. Rather than letting some primary student get to fly the whole time while he sits back and tries to kill you. But again, the book knowledge and ability to put "CFI" on your resume will only help.

Re: your Mooney questions, if you dont need the backseaters, just opt for a 180-200hp short body like the C or E. No need to go fast, you're talking 10-15 minutes over the course of hundreds of miles for a plane thats $50,000 more. Just get something turn-key, nicely-equipped and was meticulously maintained. For an O-360, you can expect between $25,000-$30,000 for a proper overhaul with 3-6 months downtime. But the majority of Cs and Es were made in the 60s and 70s. If you are looking at a 1980s timeline, you're looking at a J, which will consume most of your budget just in initial acquisition costs. Paint can be between $10k-$20k and about 2 months downtime. Avionics can go from $5k-100k depending on what you want, with timeline anywhere in the middle.

It seems youre trying to buy a forever plane and use it to time build. Nothing wrong with that, but understand having a AOG (aircraft on ground) for mx, upgrades, paint, isnt going to help you build time.

My $0.02- get a solid, older 1960s or 1970s C or E model with GPS and maybe an autopilot for $80k, and use the rest for unplanned MX and go buy a shit ton of fuel and fly all over the country.

Feel free to PM if you want to chat further.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Raptor05121

[Andy95W]

1 hour ago, Raptor05121 said:

and as of today, just received a CJO for PSA Airlines as a FO on the CRJ series.
 

Alex- @Raptor05121- Congratulations!  Sorry it took a little longer than you expected (or wanted), but good job sticking with it, staying positive, and getting some great experiences along the way.

It doesn’t seem that long ago you were working nightshift while trying to get your Mooney in the air.  And honestly, it probably happened faster than you thought.  Well done!

And for @Daniel.Arbre- Alex was in exactly your place just a few short years ago, except that he didn’t have your cash resources.  The advice he gave is the best here because he’s lived it.

[Guest]

Here’s one example that would fit the mission.

https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/206931055/1963-mooney-m20c-piston-single-aircraft

Clarence

[V1VRV2]

The quality of time you build is just as important as the quantity. Building time in a primary trainer with someone else flying allows you to learn from someone else’s mistakes. But it doesn’t build real world experience operating in the IFR system. Flight planning for IFR trips all of a sudden has real world consequences. Fuel planning, VNAV/LNAV planning, weather, alternates, terrain.. all factors that’s will take on a new perspective when you actually have to meet those goals. Single pilot IFR.. you will build skill sets quickly! CFI/II/MEI are assets to have. Getting those doesn’t mean you can’t get those licenses and still build time in your own plane. I couldn’t work for $18 an hour being a CFI. 

There are ways to offset some costs associated with building time in your own plane.

1. Fly rescue animals around in the Pilots N Paws system or medical patients doing Angel flights. Expenses for those legs will be tax deductible if you need a tax deduction.

2. Find another person building time and split cots with them. Both pilots can log PIC in VFR conditions with one flying as safety pilot and one under the hood. Cuts expenses in 1/2.

Consider 1200 hrs in your own plane and the depreciation it will bring.

You likely won’t have to build 1200hrs before getting a job other than flight instructing. Business jet obs are available in the 91 market. A friend with 800TT just got a job flying a Citation XLS. He goes for his PIC type rating the end of the month. The airlines have started their post covid hiring binges and they will take a lot of pilots from 135 and 91 jobs. Personally I would rather be flying around a business jet with crews being home based than flying a CRJ for $40 and hour, commuting to my domicile and flying a reserve line. NO THANK YOU!

Pro’s and con’s to both approaches. If you have the financial means then getting your own plane has benefits. If you really want the best of everything then do both. CFI/II/MEI and own your on plane. WIN/WIN.

 

Edited August 9, 2021 by V1VRV2

[Mooney Dog]

12 hours ago, Daniel.Arbre said:

 

purpose: Hour building 1,200 hours (I have 300) 
Budget: $180K
Model: Mooney M20 
Year: 1980-1999

Question 1: I saw there are many different models for Mooney M20. Which has the best fuel efficiency?
I found many different answers when searching online but I want to know if you have personal experience.

Question 2: I heard there are models with over 200-300 HP but I want to know if there are any problems with 200 HP or if its fine. 
I think one or two people will be flying the plane and don’t care about speed. I bought a used 28ft boat before but it didn’t plane on the water so had a difficult time with this in the past. 

Question 3: I understand there are many variables but how much engine overhaul at TBO should I expect?

Question 4: I’ve thought about purchasing a 1980 model or around that year and upgrade the avionics system and paint. Is there a big difference in the frame and  basic system between model 1980 or similar OR models made after 1990s? In my personal opinion, I think there were be a lot of technology difference but I’m not sure about planes.

 

Ah i remember wanting to do that instead of getting my CFI... Now i am an CFI/CFII/MEI

a1: Most mooneys are going to be close to the same, till you start getting into the HP models. If you're looking for a great just you and one person cruiser, a C/D or E model would work, but you might like the extra space an F or J give you as well. 

a2: You are required to have a HP endorsement to act as PIC of any aircraft with 201 or more HP. For mooneys, thats anything after the J model. More HP generally means more speed in airplane.

a3: It totally depends, but most owners dont hit that point frequently. Most owners of airplane put less than 200 hours on a personal plane a year. 

a4: You're going to have to look around for prices and such. If you're trying to save as much money as you can while getting as many hours possible and stuck on buying. A C/D model with basic IFR stuff would be fine. Basic being 6 pack, 2 OBS, and a single 430. 

 

Gonna tell you right now though, you can pay your way there, but its still going to take you some time and the amount you learn as a CFI can, and will, be worth it. Plus it makes you more appealing to employers if you have a CFI.  

 

Just doing some simple math though. Local club has a arror for $150 an hour. That works out to be 180k for you're 1200 hours of flying. For my aircraft. 85k for the buy, plus fuel, plus other maintenance items, plus tiedown/hanger, plus database fees if keeping the IFR GPS up to date.... etc etc.... 

 

[Mooney Dog]

 

2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Here’s one example that would fit the mission.

https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/206931055/1963-mooney-m20c-piston-single-aircraft

Clarence

Things like this make me realize how lucky I was with my plane. 10k less, E model, and glass. 

[Hank]

4 hours ago, Mooney Dog said:

Ah i remember wanting to do that instead of getting my CFI... Now i am an CFI/CFII/MEI

a1: Most mooneys are going to be close to the same, till you start getting into the HP models. If you're looking for a great just you and one person cruiser, a C/D or E model would work, but you might like the extra space an F or J give you as well. 

a2: You are required to have a HP endorsement to act as PIC of any aircraft with 201 or more HP. For mooneys, thats anything after the J model. More HP generally means more speed in airplane.

a3: It totally depends, but most owners dont hit that point frequently. Most owners of airplane put less than 200 hours on a personal plane a year. 

a4: You're going to have to look around for prices and such. If you're trying to save as much money as you can while getting as many hours possible and stuck on buying. A C/D model with basic IFR stuff would be fine. Basic being 6 pack, 2 OBS, and a single 430. 

 

Gonna tell you right now though, you can pay your way there, but its still going to take you some time and the amount you learn as a CFI can, and will, be worth it. Plus it makes you more appealing to employers if you have a CFI.  

 

Just doing some simple math though. Local club has a arror for $150 an hour. That works out to be 180k for you're 1200 hours of flying. For my aircraft. 85k for the buy, plus fuel, plus other maintenance items, plus tiedown/hanger, plus database fees if keeping the IFR GPS up to date.... etc etc.... 

 

To optimize the outlay, spend 50-60 for a good C. (I'm only slightly prejudiced!  ) My real world costs are 9 gal / hr x 1200 hours = 9600 gal x $5 / gal = 48 AMU. Figure 2-3 per annual; 1/2 per year for databases; use a free EFB (Avare) with free plates and charts; call it 0.1 AMU for each owner-performed oil change x 24 changes = 2.4 AMU.

Let's see, at 200 hours per year, that's 6 years.

• Purchase = 60
• Annuals = 6 x 3 = 18
• Fuel = 10
• Oil changes = 24 x 0.1 = 2.4
• Databases = 6 x 0.4 = 2.4
• Hangar rent = 6 x 12 x 0.2 = 14.4

TOTAL = 107

That leaves 70AMU+ for hotel rooms, lunches, upgrades and repairs. Hopefully the unspent funds are invested and appreciating, leaving even more at the end of your journey.

Find a good Mooney and start the real learning!

P.S.--I left out insurance. Call it 2AMU per year, so leftovers drop to 60 AMU.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

To optimize the outlay, spend 50-60 for a good C. (I'm only slightly prejudiced!  ) My real world costs are 9 gal / hr x 1200 hours = 9600 gal x $5 / gal = 48 AMU. Figure 2-3 per annual; 1/2 per year for databases; use a free EFB (Avare) with free plates and charts; call it 0.1 AMU for each owner-performed oil change x 24 changes = 2.4 AMU.

Let's see, at 200 hours per year, that's 6 years.

• Purchase = 60
• Annuals = 6 x 3 = 18
• Fuel = 10
• Oil changes = 24 x 0.1 = 2.4
• Databases = 6 x 0.4 = 2.4
• Hangar rent = 6 x 12 x 0.2 = 14.4

TOTAL = 107

That leaves 70AMU+ for hotel rooms, lunches, upgrades and repairs. Hopefully the unspent funds are invested and appreciating, leaving even more at the end of your journey.

Find a good Mooney and start the real learning!

P.S.--I left out insurance. Call it 2AMU per year, so leftovers drop to 60 AMU.

If the OP is trying to compress the flying hours into less calendar time many of the fixed expenses will shrink.

Clarence

[Yetti]

13 hours ago, M20Doc said:

A Mooney C model makes the most sense, lower price for almost everything involved.  Cheaper to buy, lower fuel burn, most reliable simple carbureted engine, because it’s a clean airframe, throttled back it will burn the same fuel as a 152 at the same speed, with the option of going way faster if you’re in a hurry.

Clarence

Bingo

[Mooney Dog]

2 hours ago, Hank said:

To optimize the outlay, spend 50-60 for a good C. (I'm only slightly prejudiced!  ) My real world costs are 9 gal / hr x 1200 hours = 9600 gal x $5 / gal = 48 AMU. Figure 2-3 per annual; 1/2 per year for databases; use a free EFB (Avare) with free plates and charts; call it 0.1 AMU for each owner-performed oil change x 24 changes = 2.4 AMU.

Let's see, at 200 hours per year, that's 6 years.

• Purchase = 60
• Annuals = 6 x 3 = 18
• Fuel = 10
• Oil changes = 24 x 0.1 = 2.4
• Databases = 6 x 0.4 = 2.4
• Hangar rent = 6 x 12 x 0.2 = 14.4

TOTAL = 107

That leaves 70AMU+ for hotel rooms, lunches, upgrades and repairs. Hopefully the unspent funds are invested and appreciating, leaving even more at the end of your journey.

Find a good Mooney and start the real learning!

P.S.--I left out insurance. Call it 2AMU per year, so leftovers drop to 60 AMU.

Do you actually use Avare? I have it as a back up but i cant stand it. Foreflight is just way better for me.

[Hank]

Just now, Mooney Dog said:

Do you actually use Avare? I have it as a back up but i cant stand it. Foreflight is just way better for me.

Yes. You just gotta get used to the interface. It's free. Sectionals are free. Low Enroutes are free. The free Approach Plates are georeferenced and switch to georeferenced airport diagram after landing, at about the time I hit the brakes.

[Mooney Dog]

28 minutes ago, Hank said:

Yes. You just gotta get used to the interface. It's free. Sectionals are free. Low Enroutes are free. The free Approach Plates are georeferenced and switch to georeferenced airport diagram after landing, at about the time I hit the brakes.

How easy is it to do flight planning and filing in it? 

[Hank]

24 minutes ago, Mooney Dog said:

How easy is it to do flight planning and filing in it? 

I started using it first just for planning. It's so much easier than laying out sectionals on the kitchen floor. I've never used it to file, I'm old fashioned enough that I still call for a last briefing and file then.

[Daniel.Arbre]

19 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

I apologize for the stupid question, but if you don’t care how fast it is and your only purpose is “hour building” have you considered a 152? It’s going to be a lot cheaper than a Mooney.

On the other hand, if you want an awesome, fast airplane to travel places then you’re looking in the right place.

Thanks for your reply. 

I’ve considered 152, 172 as well.

Because the one thing I’ve hesitated with the Mooney is speed. 

I haven’t found a good item yet in my budget.

[Daniel.Arbre]

19 hours ago, Will.iam said:

The reason why so many people go the CFI route is that it pays you while you build hours, same reason to go the military pilot route.  You can get the 1200 hours paying your own way but then you are out that money when you have the 1200 hours. There are cheaper ways to build hours than with a fast complex airplane. Now if your mission is to go places quickly on as little of fuel as possible then a mooney will fit nicely for you. 

Thanks for your reply. Of course I’ve considered CFI but due to personal reasons, might not be an option. 

[Mooney Dog]

10 minutes ago, Hank said:

I started using it first just for planning. It's so much easier than laying out sectionals on the kitchen floor. I've never used it to file, I'm old fashioned enough that I still call for a last briefing and file then.

I might just load up a tablet with it then and get all the sectionals. Better than nothing.