Jump to content

Looking for advice about first time aircraft ownership

Appalachia
 Share

Recommended Posts

Appalachia Rookie

Appalachia

Posted
Posted (edited)

Hi I’m a very newly minted pilot (70 hours, all in small cessnas, no complex or high perf time). I’ve done some very rudimentary math and I believe that buying my first aircraft might make a tiny bit of sense.

I’m 28, I make a decent engineering salary, no debts, and I live in the Queens borough of NY. Rental rates around here are nuts and my mission doesn’t really work with rentals (160 wet for c172s). I want to be able to visit my family in rural Virginia often and whenever I want. I’ve been combing TAP for months to try and wrap my head around the market for used aircraft. I’ve become attracted to the value of Mooney m20s and how well they fit my mission.

So firstly, am I delusional for thinking I can afford a flying machine?
 

If not, is a 70 AMU loan an acceptable amount of financing for looking into an old, respectable, m20? Can low rates be found for a loan of that size? I asked AOPA and they offered 6% and I felt that was a little high for the current market but that might be par for the course for something that small.

Is there anything I should start doing now to prepare myself for owning an aircraft or a Mooney?
 

What would you do differently in my situation? I’m young and dumb and asking for the benefit of your experience.

Regardless, thanks for creating such a great community here at Mooneyspace. I’ve learned so much from lurking and reading here this past year.

Edited by Appalachia
advice
toto Grand Master

toto

Posted
Posted

Honestly, the first thing I might do is figure out where a potential aircraft is going to live. Hangars can be very hard to come by, and even tie down space can be expensive at certain airports. @201ermay be a good resource for availability near the city.

Aircraft ownership is a learning experience, and the only real requirements are an open mind and a financial buffer for unexpected expenses (particularly in the first year).

My first owned aircraft was in a partnership with another (more experienced) pilot, and that partnership came with a hangar. I spent ten years on a waiting list before my name came up for a hangar of my own.

A partnership is a pretty good intro to ownership, but certainly not required. The hangar thing is definitely an x-factor to consider.

You've taken the right first step by reaching out to the MS community. This group can provide an insane amount of combined knowledge about Mooneys, and there isn’t much about the make that can’t be answered here. 

Appalachia Rookie

Appalachia

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Ah good point on parking. Unfortunately, hangers here are probably out of my reach. I have called some local FBOs and have been quoted on tie down spots for around 150 a month. I do feel bad about parking a Mooney in the elements but I don’t know if I’ll be able to find an alternative.

As for partnership, I will keep my eyes peeled. Learning to take care of an aircraft with a more experienced pilot seems ideal.

201er Grand Master

201er

Posted
Posted

Linden, White Plains, Farmingdale, or Caldwell are really you’re only options for parking. 
 

Personally, I would encourage you to learn to fly first and then worry about getting a Mooney.

If you are honest with yourself, buying an airplane never makes sense (in terms of math), but it can totally make sense if it’s what you want. 
 

Go rent some different airplanes, get your complex, do some cross countries. Then, just before you are ready to go for your instrument, get in touch with the Grim Reaper @Alan Fox and see if he has a deal for you. When you get your Mooney you can join us for our NJMP lunch fly ins as well. 

squeaky.stow Rising Star

squeaky.stow

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Appalachia said:

Hi I’m a very newly minted pilot

Hi Appalachia, 

Welcome to Mooneyspace and congratulations on joining a very small elite group! Very few people in the world do activities that rely entirely on their own skills to keep them alive. You are now a trapeze artist working without a net and that is an achievement to be proud of.

2 hours ago, Appalachia said:

So firstly, am I delusional for thinking I can afford a flying machine?

Of course you are. We all are. You can never really justify owning an airplane unless you are one of those rare people that own a business that actually makes money by flying airplanes. (I have heard that such enterprises exist, but I am skeptical) We do it anyway because we love it and we would otherwise be blowing our money on boats or cars or golf clubs or casinos. I was once on a cruise and the during the orientation lecture, the cruise director told us where to find the restaurants, pools, and of course to casino. Then he said “If you get there and the doors are locked, just put all your money in an envelope and slide it under the door. IT’S THE SAME THING!” At least with aviation you can have fun wasting all your extra money!

 

2 hours ago, Appalachia said:

Is there anything I should start doing now to prepare myself for owning an aircraft or a Mooney?

You are doing it. I followed Mooneyspace for a couple of years before I bought my Mooney. I avoided a lot of expensive mistakes by learning from others here.

2 hours ago, Appalachia said:

What would you do differently in my situation? I’m young and dumb and asking for the benefit of your experience.

The only decisions I really regret in my life were due to waiting until I was sure there was no financial risk. I delayed buying a sailboat when my kids were young. By the time I could afford to pay cash, they had grown up. In retrospect I should have borrowed the money and enjoyed the time with them. If you can swing it financially and it makes you happy, I say go for it.

 

  • Like 2
Hank Grand Master

Hank

Posted
Posted

Ownership is wonderful! But it's definitely a learning experience. The important part about buying an airplane is to buy one in good mechanical condition that is flown regularly. When it comes to affordability, it's less about how much you make than about how much you currently have left over at the end of the month. If you have some month left over at the end of the money, pass for now.

Total up the fixed expenses:  hangar / tie down; annual inspection; insurance; GPS databases.

Then estimate the variable / operational expenses:  fuel (estimated hours flown x fuel flow x local price); a battery every 4-6 years (currently ~$400 each); tires & tube every ~6 years or so; oil and oil changes ($9 per quart, plan on $200 per change); and some $15 per day parking fees when you travel. Good usage will be at least 6 hours per month. (For my C, 6 hours x 9 gph x $4/gal = $216 in fuel minimum per month; I change oil myself [7 quarts x $9 + $20 filter = $83 twice a year]; but this is proficiency flying and a lunch run or two, not travel or time building.)

We have an insurance guy here who can give you the lowdown on current rates,  @Parker_Woodruff. When I bought my C five weeks after my PPL checkride, my first year was $3100, but it has gone way down then way back up since then. The key is to fly 100 hours or more the first year, which will reduce the rates your second year (mine fell by half).

Happy hunting! Plane prices are high right now, and good planes sell fast. So get your financing set up and be ready to make an offer if you see one you like. Or wait another year or so and save some cash, as it is not uncommon to need some catch-up maintenance after buying a plane.

This strategy above will work for all makes and models of plane, the major variables are insurance, fuel burn and hours flown.

  • Like 3
Danb Grand Master

Danb

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, 201er said:

Linden, White Plains, Farmingdale, or Caldwell are really you’re only options for parking. 
 

Personally, I would encourage you to learn to fly first and then worry about getting a Mooney.

If you are honest with yourself, buying an airplane never makes sense (in terms of math), but it can totally make sense if it’s what you want. 
 

Go rent some different airplanes, get your complex, do some cross countries. Then, just before you are ready to go for your instrument, get in touch with the Grim Reaper @Alan Fox and see if he has a deal for you. When you get your Mooney you can join us for our NJMP lunch fly ins as well. 

Mikey when’s our next flyin

 

d b

Danb Grand Master

Danb

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Hank said:

Ownership is wonderful! But it's definitely a learning experience. The important part about buying an airplane is to buy one in good mechanical condition that is flown regularly. When it comes to affordability, it's less about how much you make than about how much you currently have left over at the end of the month. If you have some month left over at the end of the money, pass for now.

Total up the fixed expenses:  hangar / tie down; annual inspection; insurance; GPS databases.

Then estimate the variable / operational expenses:  fuel (estimated hours flown x fuel flow x local price); a battery every 4-6 years (currently ~$400 each); tires & tube every ~6 years or so; oil and oil changes ($9 per quart, plan on $200 per change); and some $15 per day parking fees when you travel. Good usage will be at least 6 hours per month. (For my C, 6 hours x 9 gph x $4/gal = $216 in fuel minimum per month; I change oil myself [7 quarts x $9 + $20 filter = $83 twice a year]; but this is proficiency flying and a lunch run or two, not travel or time building.)

We have an insurance guy here who can give you the lowdown on current rates,  @Parker_Woodruff. When I bought my C five weeks after my PPL checkride, my first year was $3100, but it has gone way down then way back up since then. The key is to fly 100 hours or more the first year, which will reduce the rates your second year (mine fell by half).

Happy hunting! Plane prices are high right now, and good planes sell fast. So get your financing set up and be ready to make an offer if you see one you like. Or wait another year or so and save some cash, as it is not uncommon to need some catch-up maintenance after buying a plane.

This strategy above will work for all makes and models of plane, the major variables are insurance, fuel burn and hours flown.

I would disagree with my friend Hank regarding calculations of various costs, I’m a CPA I only looked at airplane rental costs in the 1980’s determined it of absurd to pay for something I was giving back, forgot about is it worth financial sense nothing fun is, then looked at my bank account my earning potential and bought a plane within a week after I fell in love with flying after 2 lessons. Four planes including 2 new ones I’ve never doubted my stupidity I’d do it all over again. Eg decided I wanted to go to New Orleans and gulf coast so checked weather and left next day, freedom is owning and using your plane. I think of my buddy who we all know took his grandson on a trip  his grandson will cherish for his life. Bob B was one of a great kind we all miss.

  • Like 3
carusoam Grand Master

carusoam

Posted
Posted

Welcome aboard Appalachia... @Appalachia
 

First rule of business on the internet... 

If you want to tell the world how much dough your earn and not get nagged by the internet bots...

You will find coding the dollar value in AMUs to be really helpful... not k, not $, AMUs....

 

Second rule of business...

Your income won’t mean very much to your airplane ownership... without telling the rest of the world what your expenses are...

A list of expensive things that MSers typically have to deal with alongside airplane ownership...

  • House costs
  • Car costs
  • Costs of raising children
  • Education costs, yours, and theirs...
  • Retirement funding...

Airplane ownership for many MSers last for many years...

If you have the insight of how you will use your airplane for those years... Buying a Mooney really makes a lot of sense...  which one will fit your mission...

Finding the right Mooney probably takes figuring out what the instrument panel should have... what engine details you want to have...

What’s more important to you...  Speed or economy, or both... depending on the day...

Third rule of business...

If you want help with your finances... DanB is a great resource for that... Aviation, accounting, and tax questions are his area. :)

 

When able, go ahead and edit your post above...     it will be better for the whole community...

You do know... what you write in a public place doesn’t go away... and can be easily found years later...

PP thoughts only, not an internet bot...

Best regards,

-a-

Appalachia Rookie

Appalachia

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Thank you all for the sage advice! 

@carusoam you are correct, I have edited my post...

To color my financial situation a bit more, the only expenses I currently have are rent, food, and a cat. I think I am naturally risk averse but echoing the sentiment of some of your comments... I think I would regret it if I didn't chase the dream  :) 

  • Thanks 1
201er Grand Master

201er

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Appalachia said:

Thank you all for the sage advice! 

@carusoam you are correct, I have edited my post...

To color my financial situation a bit more, the only expenses I currently have are rent, food, and a cat. I think I am naturally risk averse but echoing the sentiment of some of your comments... I think I would regret it if I didn't chase the dream  :) 

Good idea. Get your bird before you get married or have kids or you’ll end up like a bunch of the guys on here and not get your plane for a long time.

Lucky I did it that way so my wife knows there’s no such thing as “it’s me or the plane!” :P

  • Like 2
PT20J Grand Master

PT20J

Posted
Posted

Buying an airplane is a lot like buying a house, and you will do well if you think of it that way.

Most common mistake is buying more than you can afford to operate and maintain. There are all sorts of additional costs: Hangar/tiedown, annual inspection, insurance, taxes in some states, plus the first year or two of ownership usually have higher than average maintenance costs due to maintenance deferred by the previous owner.

The second mistake is buying an old, cheap airplane thinking it will be cheap to maintain. Richard Collins used to write that the cost of operating and maintaining a used airplane is close to the cost of operating and maintaining a new airplane after the warranty runs out. Parts and labor cost the same either way and older planes break more.

When I bought my first airplane many years ago, a fellow pilot/owner friend told me that the best part of owning an airplane compared to renting was that the flying was free. How can that be?, I asked. He pointed out that after adding up all the costs associated with the airplane, gas and oil for an hour of flight was lost in the noise.

So, if you can afford it, there is no better feeling than having the key in your pocket!

Good hunting,

 

Skip

  • Like 2
carusoam Grand Master

carusoam

Posted
Posted

Hmmmm....

1) Great idea....  airplane and corvette first.... then marriage...

2) Doing it in the reverse order can cause unneeded stresses.... :)

3) Loan rates... are as cheap as they are going to get... ever.

4) airplane loans are similar to used car loans... higher than a home equity loan, or house loan... with fewer consumer protections... read every line of the agreement before signing...

5) look at AOPA’s 6% annual rate... would a 5% rate make a difference to you?

6) Without a family weighing on every risky financial bet you take...  if you buy the wrong plane for your mission, as it evolves... you sell it for nearly the same as you bought it...

7) Expect nearly the same to be easily a 10% discount...  more, if the economy crashes... a few bucks more if you employ help to sell your plane again...

8) Add up the costs of acquisition... include Transition Training.... the first year of insurance has a painful first year in it.

9) Put some dough aside for first year maintenance... for things that break or broke or need OH... 10%?

10) Getting your IR is best done in your plane... the one you intend to fly for a long time...

11) Be on the look out for a hangar for your plane... if you intend to keep it in good shape... UV light and rain can be tough on machinery... you may see waiting lists...

12) I used AOPA to finance the M20R for a year... just to get through the purchasing stage... refinancing occurred after that as interest rates declined...

13) Get up to speed on the purchasing process....  what works best for you and the plane you are buying...

  • define your mission...
  • find the plane
  • negotiate and buy the plane.
  • What a purchase agreement does,,,
  • what a PPI is, what it protects, and what should be the details to be checked....
  • what TT is for a pilot with a new 2U plane... who should be your TTer, where, what experience they have...
  • what insurance costs for that plane, who Parker is....
  • Where is GMax...  what does G do, and is there anything he can do to help you get to where you want to go...
  • Last detail I goofed up... follow your steps when registering the plane... somebody will send you a pink copy... remember to carry the pink copy with you...   :)

Thanks for taking care of the business issues at the front... that is greatly appreciated...

 

Fuzzy PP memories, not anything recent.  Not a plane sales guy either...

 

Best regards,

-a-

Browncbr1 Grand Master

Browncbr1

Posted
Posted

After you figure the cost of insurance, storage, and Mx on your own plane, I bet that $160/hr 172 will look more attractive.  

Build time by renting until you have enough hours to lower insurance. 

To operate a vintage mooney, you need about $15k per year that you don’t care about and be able to write a check for $40k without caring at any moment.  That’s assuming the plane is already in pretty good condition with no corrosion.  

KLRDMD Grand Master

KLRDMD

Posted
Posted
On 6/6/2021 at 1:03 PM, Hank said:

If you have some month left over at the end of the money, pass for now.

Brilliant advice!

KLRDMD Grand Master

KLRDMD

Posted
Posted
39 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

To operate a vintage mooney, you need about $15k per year that you don’t care about and be able to write a check for $40k without caring at any moment.  That’s assuming the plane is already in pretty good condition with no corrosion.  

Yes, this!

dzeleski Proficient

dzeleski

Posted
Posted

You are me one year ago. I purchased a J for the same exact reason, a 172N is $190 an hour wet, and a 182T is $240 an hour wet as ISP, completely insane. I bought at 28 with 78 hours TT, no retract and no time in type. I bought just before insurance started to change, your biggest issue will be getting insurance and finding storage, get quotes now for both and get on waiting lists. My first year insurance was ~$3500, expect to pay 600-1000 per month for a hangar, 200-400 a month for a tie down.

I did finance my airplane but I got a very good rate so it made sense for me to keep my money in investments rather then use the cash.

I dont think you are crazy but you really need to sit down and estimate your costs, I budget 30k per year to fly and maintain my J. This includes the cost of flying 150 hours per year.

What you need to do to own a mooney is have self control and great airspeed control. You can work on this now in a 172, everything you do needs to be on the numbers perfectly. Mooneys are amazing planes but the stall characteristics are not docile and landing them consistently is difficult. Once you decide on a model, study the POH before you even show up that way you have an idea on how things are supposed to work.

My J is at ISP, I live 20 min West of ISP. If you need a mooney ride or some local assistance id be glad to have a chat with you. There are a couple of really experienced and helpful NY Mooney owners as well.

  • Like 1
AH-1 Cobra Pilot Experienced

AH-1 Cobra Pilot

Posted
Posted
15 minutes ago, steingar said:

It is written in the Book of Steingar that one should never go into debt for a toy.

What is the difference between a toy and a tool?  You can deduct the tool from your income tax.

  • Haha 1
carusoam Grand Master

carusoam

Posted
Posted
10 hours ago, Appalachia said:

@dzeleski that is encouraging! Thank you for the very relevant advice.

And thanks everyone else as well. You have given me a lot to think about 


Appalachia,

Don’t be afraid to think out loud...

There are sooo many MSers around here...  that have been in your shoes...   or will be in your shoes in the near future...

Your questions will be helpful for a few people... including the guys answering the questions...

+1 for Steingar’s book of financial conservatism... until you really know your plane’s mission... you can always sleep in your plane... but you can’t fly your house...   :)

Best regards,

-a-

 Share
Go to topic listing
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.